The Cause Of Baldness

[Luckytype]

So you have to keep in mind the massaging is a remodeling adaptation stessor. Meaning you add mechanical tension, the body senses it and changes the tissue - theres a mind inflammatory response and the actions are taken to adapt the tissue.


Knowing this, it may be wise to not only gauge it by feel but also add a bit of time to the recovery period. In other words guys who arent massaging may need a couple more days off that us that have been doing it for months. Ive personally found the best result for me is a 48 hour rest window. I tried the 36 and the 24 and it was too much inflammation.

You wouldnt go to the park and run a marathon distance after not running in years would you? Keep this in mind with the short rest periods initially.

You guys should start with just fingertips and knuckles(this may be sore) and pressing the scalp into the bone. Press for 1 second, change area and so on. Then after this you can pressure down and move the scalp over the bone applyin light tension to start to get some movement. Circles, back and forth whatever youre able to do. Over the days and weeks it will become more mobile.

At first my scalp wouldnt budge, i could only press. One month into pressing i saw regrowth on my hairline - i was literally floored. And that point my hair had just started the hormonal shedding a couple months earlier so i knew i had caught it. With this in mind some guys may take a couple months to see sprouting new hair if its been a long time from tension ischemia. There would be a ton of change that needs to happen to make the field ready to plant.

Also, i saw my regrowth on 10minutes a couple times a day. Granted i was obviously reversing the newly changes scalp so it wasnt too difficult compared to what some guys have to stay on top of.

Start with 10minutes, twice a for a week. Ease into it because the last thing you want is to send your scalp into an endless circle of inflammation. Gauge it by feel and soreness and the erythema(which will probably get "better" and more red/less splotchy. Then add volume.

....says the idiot who used to spend 4 hours at the gym.

 

[Prosper]

Ive personally found the best result for me is a 48 hour rest window.

How did you gauge that? Did you spend several weeks adhering to certain rest interval and then another? If it takes months to even start seeing results, how well can you conclude that 48 hours of rest works better than some 24?

But yes, I understand that rest periods are necessary, especially in the beginning. I just see no point in trying to come up with a constant (= an ideal rest period length) for something that is fundamentally a variable (= recovery speed). The body will tell you what's up as long as you take the time to listen to the signals it gives. Absence of pain is an absence of problem. When you begin to grimace in discomfort, that's when you enter the danger zone.

 

[Luckytype]

Trying to quote here, failing hard. M comments are bolded :)

"How did you gauge that? Did you spend several weeks adhering to certain rest interval and then another? If it takes months to even start seeing results, how well can you conclude that 48 hours of rest works better than some 24?

It took me a month. Me. Probably because my scalp tightness hasnt been built up for years.

Basically I would spend 8-10 weeks on a given interval but I used common sense to start.

Knowing that peak swelling or peak soreness(again do your own research on immflamatory response) with acute traumas is somewhere in the 36-72 hour window depending on type and person, there was noooo way I was going to go from zero stimulation to nearly an hour of it without some ramp up period. This goes for would healing all the way to muscular micro trauma.

Times when i knew i was doing too much, my scalp was ALWAYS inflammed and itchy. Flaking is a natural part of this massage protocol(byproduxt of cell replacement specifically) but It was would be red into the next say, irritated and even a "warmup" of light massaging would send it into complete hotness and irritation.

Once someone learns better sensory awareness of their scalp and the way it responds to stimuli, they should be able to tell a difference between recovery from a session and constant inflammation. Another indicator would likely be and increase in shedding to accompany this.

But yes, I understand that rest periods are necessary, especially in the beginning. I just see no point in trying to come up with a constant (= an ideal rest period length) for something that is fundamentally a variable (= recovery speed). The body will tell you what's up as long as you take the time to listen to the signals it gives. Absence of pain is an absence of problem. When you begin to grimace in discomfort, that's when you enter the danger zone.
Absense of pain is not the absense of a problem. Pain in the situation of overuse injury is often the LAST thing to appear and the FIRST thing to disappear when healing.

Pain in an inflammatory sense is a signal to say "hey something is realllly wrong here" which is why it takes a lot of time for an injury to show up, pain subsides but then "it keeps coming back" - no its the initial injury still there but it crosses the threshold to alert the person. Bone spurs are a great example inflammation > pain > continued irritation > callous formation/spurring "


Ive figured out my own scalp having been massaging for 15 months.

While my internal hormonal shedding problem continues, my improved hairline and constant replacement of hair tells me the follicles are at least being kept alive.

Consider this when figuring out your rest period: would you rather be doing a little less, conservatively ramping up to an ideal length. Or would you rather do just a little too much pushing yourself toward long term inflammation this eventually needing a complete rest?

 

[Prosper]

You can quote by highlighting a specific part with your mouse and then clicking reply in the box that appears. This will conveniently send the highlighted part into your reply window as a properly formatted quote.

Times when i knew i was doing too much, my scalp was ALWAYS inflammed and itchy. Flaking is a natural part of this massage protocol(byproduxt of cell replacement specifically) but It was would be red into the next say, irritated and even a "warmup" of light massaging would send it into complete hotness and irritation.

Ah. I've been fixing my body posture and for the past half a year and the posterior top of my head has been itchy and inflammed for about the same duration. Having spent plenty of time in my parents house during this period, I attributed it to an allergic reaction to their cat (I used to get scaly and itchy fingers by petting it). But now that you mentioned the connection, I see how it could very well be caused by the changing anatomy. My skull shape has even changed a little, similar to this picture:

Assuming that the skull has been expanding in this manner, it definitely seems reasonable to assume that the galea is going to have to stretch in order to adapt to the new structure.

Absense of pain is not the absense of a problem. Pain in the situation of overuse injury is often the LAST thing to appear and the FIRST thing to disappear when healing.

Well perhaps we have a little differing thresholds for what is a problem and what is not. I don't view moderate scalp inflammation as a problem, but a relatively harmless byproduct of change. It's inconvenient and avoidable, but not detrimental. Within most contexts, when pain first appears things are still pretty much recoverable with immediate cessation of the problematic action. Of course though, like you say, the cause of the problem appears much before the pain appears. Going on until the point of pain is not as big of a deal as going on in spite of pain. The way I see it, THAT is when a potential problem progresses to an actual problem.

Consider this when figuring out your rest period: would you rather be doing a little less, conservatively ramping up to an ideal length. Or would you rather do just a little too much pushing yourself toward long term inflammation this eventually needing a complete rest?

I would do whatever feels intuitive at any given moment.

 

[Travis]

"6. Lipid-based pathways are underexplored area of biology."

"a. Given that lipid biology is comparatively understudied to genes and proteins, it is possible that it is possible that it has been overlooked in this very common condition." ―Luis A. Garza (on prostaglandin D₂ and hair loss)​

I have to agree with Garza. The prostaglandins can explain hair loss better that the Wnt/β-catenin pathway which ignores them.

Luis A. Garza has at least three articles on this topic, and I think they're all worth reading.

 

[Mossy]

You guys should start with just fingertips and knuckles(this may be sore) and pressing the scalp into the bone. Press for 1 second, change area and so on. Then after this you can pressure down and move the scalp over the bone applyin light tension to start to get some movement. Circles, back and forth whatever youre able to do. Over the days and weeks it will become more mobile.

Hello, can I ask where you learned this particular method? I'm just attempting to determine which method to use. Would you classify what you're describing as detumescence massage? Thanks.

 

[Luckytype]

Hello, can I ask where you learned this particular method? I'm just attempting to determine which method to use. Would you classify what you're describing as detumescence massage? Thanks.

By method you mean the technique?

I somewhat figured it out on my own after reading the japanese study. So my hair is a little longer on top(varying between 3 and 5 inches). I was so paranoid of my fingers slipping and tearing hair out. I started pressing just because my own scalp was tight to my head. It literally didnt move so it wasnt like i could pinch or stretch it.

The next part is going to sound ridiculous. My hands were absolutely exhausted a couple months in, but my forearms were growing so that was somewhat cool because I've always had smaller forearms. Anyway, what I would then do is lay a pillowcase down on the floor so that I could get a hair count after word because remember I was monitoring my own hair count, I would then brace my fingers using the back of my hands against the floor and basically press my head into my fingers.

In essence, I developed my own strategy because there was no way I could hold my hands above my head for 20 minutes while having a grip on my skull. I found it much easier to massage for the longer time periods and when I was cycling the amount of force that I was putting into the massage it was easier to press my head and use gravity into my fingers then to try to grab my head like a giant basketball.

Past that, I compared my scalp to my girlfriend, who is much younger than I am and realized that she could fold and flex and twist her scalp on her head and mine couldn't. So I just started trying different techniques and comparing them to those in the study which basically let me to press inward towards the bone, stretch it off my head and stretch sections of it, and then pinch as if you were trying to pop a pimple but using the four fingers on each hand(this came after weeks of it, not immediatwly).I had to use gravity to my advantage whenever I did this because my arms are heavy and it was very difficult for me to hold it overhead for 20 minutes.

For me, I started seeing growth with just pressing even before my scalp loosened up which I thought was absolutely insane.

Does that help?

 

[Mossy]

By method you mean the technique?

I somewhat figured it out on my own after reading the japanese study. So my hair is a little longer on top(varying between 3 and 5 inches). I was so paranoid of my fingers slipping and tearing hair out. I started pressing just because my own scalp was tight to my head. It literally didnt move so it wasnt like i could pinch or stretch it.

The next part is going to sound ridiculous. My hands were absolutely exhausted a couple months in, but my forearms were growing so that was somewhat cool because I've always had smaller forearms. Anyway, what I would then do is lay a pillowcase down on the floor so that I could get a hair count after word because remember I was monitoring my own hair count, I would then brace my fingers using the back of my hands against the floor and basically press my head into my fingers.

In essence, I developed my own strategy because there was no way I could hold my hands above my head for 20 minutes while having a grip on my skull. I found it much easier to massage for the longer time periods and when I was cycling the amount of force that I was putting into the massage it was easier to press my head and use gravity into my fingers then to try to grab my head like a giant basketball.

Past that, I compared my scalp to my girlfriend, who is much younger than I am and realized that she could fold and flex and twist her scalp on her head and mine couldn't. So I just started trying different techniques and comparing them to those in the study which basically let me to press inward towards the bone, stretch it off my head and stretch sections of it, and then pinch as if you were trying to pop a pimple but using the four fingers on each hand(this came after weeks of it, not immediatwly).I had to use gravity to my advantage whenever I did this because my arms are heavy and it was very difficult for me to hold it overhead for 20 minutes.

For me, I started seeing growth with just pressing even before my scalp loosened up which I thought was absolutely insane.

Does that help?

Yes, I think technique would've been a better word. I've never seen the official method spelled out anywhere, but you mention a "study". Could you provide a link, if you have one?

Haha, that is a little funny, but it seems to have worked. Yeah, 20 minutes is a long time. Do you know if it's not as beneficial to use a massage device instead of your hands? Or, would the fear be of tearing hair out with something like that?

That is insane that you saw results. I've tried many things to no avail. Do you mind if I ask at what stage your hair loss was prior to seeing regrowth?

This does help and is a start in the right direction. Thanks.

 

[Luckytype]

I think the big thing to keep in mind with hairloss is there is likely 3-5 different routes a body can take before any one thing sets the cascade in motion. Not every single person is going to be dealing with the same cause or malady despite the symptom(pattern balding, shedding etc) being the same - or at least appearing the same to our eyes.

Dead honest, when I started doing something - I absolutely didnt think it would work, and if it did, i was thinking like a year later. I think the reality for some guys is it may take 6 months, some may even take a year. Remodeling years worth of tissue


Check my threads.

My hair loss was just a FAST diffuse shed. What I didn't really realize was that my hairline moved maybe 4-7mm back and my youthful widows peak had started to thin and flatten. I think the years of running on stress/caffiene was building, and being a body builder at the time, I was doing a mini-cut for the summer around May 2016, I cut out maybe 1300 calories(stupid) and by June I was shedding. By august my hair was visually thin and I had tracked over 100 hairs a day. I panicked, ALMOST jumped on fin but said no fkn way. Cleaned up my diet, started pressing my scalp on Sept 5 and by end of October I had almost 1/4 inch hairs and my widows peak was better than it literally ever was. My metabolism is still all goofed up - im shedding full thickness, tapered hairs now - usually about a month to 4 month old hair(going by 1/2 per month growth). So my calcification or fibrosis or whatever it was obviously wasn't bad. But it definitely was there.

Whats weird to think is obviously my massaging is fighting the metabolic issues I have that are trying to end hair production but Im keeping it alive with massage.

So I definitely didnt have anything worse than a norwood 2ish maybe a 2.25-2.5 if there was such a classification. Definitely not a 3. But I think it drives home the fact that with TIME and consistency you can make a change. It will just take some guys longer.

It will be less fatiguing for you if you start the pressing with the 2nd knuckle on your fingers. Just pressed perpendicular to the skin so it goes straight inward and doesnt slip. What first started as a mildly painful pressure is now just a pressure. And since my scalp has remodeled I can really crank on it if I feel like it without pain. You will likely hear some clicking/crunching noise once in a while on the thick heavy parts of the scalp, that is OK and normal. As the tissue remodels that will go away.

 

[Mossy]

I think the big thing to keep in mind with hairloss is there is likely 3-5 different routes a body can take before any one thing sets the cascade in motion. Not every single person is going to be dealing with the same cause or malady despite the symptom(pattern balding, shedding etc) being the same - or at least appearing the same to our eyes.

Dead honest, when I started doing something - I absolutely didnt think it would work, and if it did, i was thinking like a year later. I think the reality for some guys is it may take 6 months, some may even take a year. Remodeling years worth of tissue


Check my threads.

My hair loss was just a FAST diffuse shed. What I didn't really realize was that my hairline moved maybe 4-7mm back and my youthful widows peak had started to thin and flatten. I think the years of running on stress/caffiene was building, and being a body builder at the time, I was doing a mini-cut for the summer around May 2016, I cut out maybe 1300 calories(stupid) and by June I was shedding. By august my hair was visually thin and I had tracked over 100 hairs a day. I panicked, ALMOST jumped on fin but said no fkn way. Cleaned up my diet, started pressing my scalp on Sept 5 and by end of October I had almost 1/4 inch hairs and my widows peak was better than it literally ever was. My metabolism is still all goofed up - im shedding full thickness, tapered hairs now - usually about a month to 4 month old hair(going by 1/2 per month growth). So my calcification or fibrosis or whatever it was obviously wasn't bad. But it definitely was there.

Whats weird to think is obviously my massaging is fighting the metabolic issues I have that are trying to end hair production but Im keeping it alive with massage.

So I definitely didnt have anything worse than a norwood 2ish maybe a 2.25-2.5 if there was such a classification. Definitely not a 3. But I think it drives home the fact that with TIME and consistency you can make a change. It will just take some guys longer.

It will be less fatiguing for you if you start the pressing with the 2nd knuckle on your fingers. Just pressed perpendicular to the skin so it goes straight inward and doesnt slip. What first started as a mildly painful pressure is now just a pressure. And since my scalp has remodeled I can really crank on it if I feel like it without pain. You will likely hear some clicking/crunching noise once in a while on the thick heavy parts of the scalp, that is OK and normal. As the tissue remodels that will go away.

Ok, thanks for additional detail. I'll kind of feel it out, and see how to incorporate it and to what degree -- progressing as it seems right. I'll check out your threads as well. Thanks.

 

[Mossy]

For those interested, I see the scalp massage study is referenced in another thread: Interesting Ideas On Hair Loss; Similar To Danny Roddy

 

[Mossy]

no, you must massage different parts of the scalp at intervals so each area is getting 20mns solid massage and then given around 24-36hrs recovery period

say you massage the front at 8am, you don't want to touch it again until around 8pm the following day. this is when healing takes place, during the downtime.

Hello, I thought it was worth sharing that the official study does not mention a rest period. Obviously, one could adjust this to fit their own needs and preferences, but it would seem that would not be consistent to the study.

Here is an excerpt from the study:

Every day, the patient with baldhead problem required a morning and
night massaging treatment for every discretized skin patch regions with
duration of 20 minutes per session. The total treatment time took about
300 days.

​

I can say, that I don't blame you for taking a break. Today was my first day and my hands are hurting. After 300 days, I'll have the hands of a bear wrestler.

​

 

[sladerunner69]

The cause of balding is most likely a selective adaptation to chronic stress. Hair growth and maintenance is metabolically expensive. Hair follicles and the associated cells burn more glucose and have higher energy demands than almost any other cell. I think evolution has tended to favor females for having better hair, and so their systemic hormone profiles will generally provide resistance to balding via high progesterone levels, lower estrogen, lower cortisol, etc. However this is just a tendency and many women do experience baldness akin to so called "male" pattern hairloss. The mechanism is the same in women as in men, however, but the hormonal profiles in men tend to not concern good hair. In fact it seems that evolution has favored the metabolic demands of other areas for men, such as muscle and bone structure.

Interesting to note that certain populations and people, Native Americans, Islanders, African tribes- typically the people who live nearer tot he equator- often <5% of these people will hairloss in life. Compare that to the statistic that >80% of men in the US will experience hairloss in their lifetime. The higher and lower up in latitude the people resides, the more and more they demonstrate increasing rates in pattern baldness. Scandinavian countries historically had the highest baldness rates, and ate diets centered on fish, grains, seeds, as did the Japanese and Eskimos who were also known to frequently go bald. Could be sunlight, and baldness is a way to harness extra bright light particularly around the brain, but that's probably only part of the evolution. I blame dietary PUFA's. The fat sources from plants near the equator are very low in PUFA, such as coconut and palm. Plenty of fruits and tubers in their traditional diets as well. Interesting to note that when these people move to the US and become integrated into modern society, adopting a diet much higher in PUFA, they experience patter baldness at rates much closer to the 80% mark.

Anyone still not convinced that diet and stress is the root cause of pattern baldness should read hair like a fox, which introduced me these ideas and details a lot of scientific literature in support...

 

[Mossy]

The cause of balding is most likely a selective adaptation to chronic stress. Hair growth and maintenance is metabolically expensive. Hair follicles and the associated cells burn more glucose and have higher energy demands than almost any other cell. I think evolution has tended to favor females for having better hair, and so their systemic hormone profiles will generally provide resistance to balding via high progesterone levels, lower estrogen, lower cortisol, etc. However this is just a tendency and many women do experience baldness akin to so called "male" pattern hairloss. The mechanism is the same in women as in men, however, but the hormonal profiles in men tend to not concern good hair. In fact it seems that evolution has favored the metabolic demands of other areas for men, such as muscle and bone structure.

Interesting to note that certain populations and people, Native Americans, Islanders, African tribes- typically the people who live nearer tot he equator- often <5% of these people will hairloss in life. Compare that to the statistic that >80% of men in the US will experience hairloss in their lifetime. The higher and lower up in latitude the people resides, the more and more they demonstrate increasing rates in pattern baldness. Scandinavian countries historically had the highest baldness rates, and ate diets centered on fish, grains, seeds, as did the Japanese and Eskimos who were also known to frequently go bald. Could be sunlight, and baldness is a way to harness extra bright light particularly around the brain, but that's probably only part of the evolution. I blame dietary PUFA's. The fat sources from plants near the equator are very low in PUFA, such as coconut and palm. Plenty of fruits and tubers in their traditional diets as well. Interesting to note that when these people move to the US and become integrated into modern society, adopting a diet much higher in PUFA, they experience patter baldness at rates much closer to the 80% mark.

Anyone still not convinced that diet and stress is the root cause of pattern baldness should read hair like a fox, which introduced me these ideas and details a lot of scientific literature in support...

I'd have to agree and say stress is the culprit, with diet and mental forms making up that stress. Where, some are metabolically very strong and the stresses of diet and mind on the body are overcome; the metabolically weaker lose hair, to the degree of the weakness.

I've just added massaging to my routine. Would you consider this a viable remedy for hair growth, or would you consider it outside the "diet and stress" categories you name? I'm just asking as a means to pick people's brains on the subject, not to accuse one way or another.

 

[sladerunner69]

I'd have to agree and say stress is the culprit, with diet and mental forms making up that stress. Where, some are metabolically very strong and the stresses of diet and mind on the body are overcome; the metabolically weaker lose hair, to the degree of the weakness.

I've just added massaging to my routine. Would you consider this a viable remedy for hair growth, or would you consider it outside the "diet and stress" categories you name? I'm just asking as a means to pick people's brains on the subject, not to accuse one way or another.

I think massaging does actually help to reduce stress, but it is more of a grey area in my view. I think it has been proven to help increase circulation, which will help oppose calcification which has been proven to be a part of pattern baldness. So definitely useful. However if the diet isn't in check, and you have a bunch of esdtrogen and cortisol and other stress hormones running through the circulation, I don't think increasing circulation will help much. So keeping the metabolism high and stress low through diet and bright light is completely fundamental to me, next would be supplements and massages.

 

[Mossy]

I think massaging does actually help to reduce stress, but it is more of a grey area in my view. I think it has been proven to help increase circulation, which will help oppose calcification which has been proven to be a part of pattern baldness. So definitely useful. However if the diet isn't in check, and you have a bunch of esdtrogen and cortisol and other stress hormones running through the circulation, I don't think increasing circulation will help much. So keeping the metabolism high and stress low through diet and bright light is completely fundamental to me, next would be supplements and massages.

Yeah, it would seem massage could only potentially help, and if not grow hair, at least not hurt. But, the success rate is amazing: "From observation, over 90% hair recovery was also found to be regrown from the hair follicles for each bald person in this study." I don't say this negatively, but I do say it -- this just seems too good to be true. Even so, it couldn't hurt to try.

 

[noodle]

I think massaging does actually help to reduce stress, but it is more of a grey area in my view. I think it has been proven to help increase circulation, which will help oppose calcification which has been proven to be a part of pattern baldness. So definitely useful. However if the diet isn't in check, and you have a bunch of esdtrogen and cortisol and other stress hormones running through the circulation, I don't think increasing circulation will help much. So keeping the metabolism high and stress low through diet and bright light is completely fundamental to me, next would be supplements and massages.

Thats exactly my opinion too.

Massaging is just another tool to get rid of calcification.
But if your diet is the opposite. The effects of massaging will diminish.

 

[eddiem991]

Sugar plays a significant role in TLR4 activation.

The Role of Carbohydrates in the Lipopolysaccharide (LPS)/Toll-Like Receptor 4 (TLR4) Signalling. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[CLASH]

@eddiem991
As far as I understand the sugar mentioned in the research article has very little to do with ingested sugar. The carbohydrate they are referring to is the carbohydrate present in the lipid A molecule which is lipopolysaccharide aka endotoxin. I think ud be hard pressed to find a solid argument against the oxidation and consumption of carbohydrates specifically sugars coming from fruit and honey.

 

[eddiem991]

@eddiem991
As far as I understand the sugar mentioned in the research article has very little to do with ingested sugar. The carbohydrate they are referring to is the carbohydrate present in the lipid A molecule which is lipopolysaccharide aka endotoxin. I think ud be hard pressed to find a solid argument against the oxidation and consumption of carbohydrates specifically sugars coming from fruit and honey.

I know that this is not in the line of thinking Peat but sugars coming from fruit and honey, of which a majority in the form of fructose are associated with NAFLD, endotoxins and inflamatory markers also asscoiated with hairloss:

"Endotoxin and PAI-1 concentration are related. It has been suggested that endotoxin by itself, but also through cytokines such as TNFa and interleukin-1, is a key regulator of PAI-1 gene expression in the liver"

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-Concentrations-and-with-Fructose-Intake1.pdf