Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

[milk_lover]

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Vegans remind me of the paleo folks, they are so religiously invested in their ideas that if somebody mentions something negative about their approach, they start to get angry/emotional because their ideas are very personal to them. Well, sorry to break it to you, I will continue eating my lamb, vegans, and I will continue drinking copious amounts of sugars in the form of fruits and milk and even sometimes starch, paleo people. See, being free of dogmas and diets, you can be anything; some days vegan, somedays lion style eating meats, etc.,. This way, you will be less resistant to opposing new ideas because you're no longer living in the bubble you've created for yourself. Before you decide to be paleo or vegan, please read the testimonials of people who have wrecked their healths following such restrictive diets. Disclaimer: I love fruits and vegetables and the plant world. In fact, I am now boiling some white bottom mushrooms

 

[Nicholas]

post 115461

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Vegans remind me of the paleo folks, they are so religiously invested in their ideas that if somebody mentions something negative about their approach, they start to get angry/emotional because their ideas are very personal to them. Well, sorry to break it to you, I will continue eating my lamb, vegans, and I will continue drinking copious amounts of sugars in the form of fruits and milk and even sometimes starch, paleo people. See, being free of dogmas and diets, you can be anything; some days vegan, somedays lion style eating meats, etc.,. This way, you will be less resistant to opposing new ideas because you're no longer living in the bubble you've created for yourself. Before you decide to be paleo or vegan, please read the testimonials of people who have wrecked their healths following such restrictive diets. Disclaimer: I love fruits and vegetables and the plant world. In fact, I am now boiling some white bottom mushrooms

amen. "Part of the balance of life lies in understanding that different days require different ways of eating…" - Nigella Lawson

it is ok to restrict foods but only if that restriction has been arrived at naturally. because when/if the body decides it wants those restricted foods again then you can just as naturally go back to them. many of us are living with years of damage and much of our dysfunction is from very basic lifestyle/diet choices. in other words, being in health and making good decisions is not all that complicated (i didn't say that it was easy) and we have to understand that if we are not fully better when we start consistently making good decisions is not because we haven't tweaked our diet enough...it is because we are in a re-birth and repairing the damage that's already been done. i am human and can therefore assume that all other humans have the same struggles - and one of those struggles is trying to blame our basic bad decisions on our diet or how it needs to change. shifting the focus away from ourselves. tweaking the outside so we don't have to tweak the inside.

with all that said, i believe that you can study nutrition and biochemistry and make diet changes and still prescribe to the approach above. but it's a constant balance.....to not get sucked off into micromanagement and anxiety.....and on the other hand to not get sucked off into "anything goes"/"don't worry about it" mentality. When i worked with Josh Rubin, despite all his knowledge and experience with working with clients for years, his approach is very simplistic and underwhelming. He is good about pulling you away from the rabbit holes and focusing on the very obvious changes that need to be made. Dr. Schwarzbein is also good about this, recognizing and being very upfront about the fact that our state of dysfunction is because of decisions that WE have made.....it's not always so simple as developing dysfunction because of a deficiency in a paleo, vegan, peat diet.

 

[mayweatherking]

Protein content may be more.. okay so how many would you have to eat? Didnt the Irish only eat potatoes during some famine and they survived?

 

[mt_dreams]

post 115306

I'm not vegan, although now I'm more open to it. The only animal product I will probably never give up is milk. I love milk. But I can easily give up everything else - meat, fish, eggs, and even cheese. More and more cheese is made with weird ingredients. The only concern I have about milk is what this guy points out about it: http://bit.ly/1NXXDYp

Which aspect from the vid are you concerned with?

Is it the igf1, estrogen, or cancer risk?

Outside of drinking milk during puberty, it seems that the cancer risk goes from 3 out of 10 to 2 out of 10 if you do not consume dairy as an adult, which is not a big enough difference make drastic changes.

If it's the estrogen hit, switching to goat milk may make a difference as pregnant goat milk is used at about a third of the rate of pregnant cow milk. it still seems like soy milk vegan option from the vid would be a worse option.

if it's the igf-1, is there anyway to reduce the amount of this circulating in the bodies of dairy drinkers?

Vinero wrote:
Source of the post Interesting post. You are right that a Ray Peat Vegan would be a special type of Vegan. As typical vegans avoid Sugar and stuff their faces with nuts and seeds (PUFAs). The Ray Peat Vegan diet is like a Vegan on steroids. But I don't see the harm in milk and cheese? No animals have to die when eating milk and cheese. Ray peats diet is already pretty vegetarian as muscle meats are not really recommended by Peat.



I agree that there is really nothing wrong with ethically produced milk and eggs. They would argue though that most of the animals on egg/dairy farms are not treated ethically. But it is possible to have those kind of farms if the public demanded it. Traditional cheese may be unethical to most vegans because animal rennet comes from calves/veal and their stomach enzymes so it is a cruel product to them. This guy makes the argument that it is the "unnecessary use of sentient non-human animals" that is the problem: http://bit.ly/1NYpGXQ

I sometimes get confused with the whole sentient being classification. So bees are possibly sentient, meaning ethical vegans can`t have honey. Yet killing bees, & every other insect species via pesticide in order to grow plants is ok by ethical vegan standards? It would seem the only way someone could be an ethical vegan, is to also be organic. This doesn't even take into account the amount of rodents & small animals that have their homes uprooted when typical planting occurs. Also, isn't it damaging to mother earth to classify sentient forms of life in their own category above all other forms of life? Shouldn't this also include all things that are conscious, which may also include things like the plant & fungi kingdoms? Unless you get your food needs from the sun or by sniffing babies, I don't see how were all not participating in the life equals death equals life process of sustenance. Ethics comes into play in regards to how you get from from point A to point B to point C, no matter what the food is.

post 115469 Protein content may be more.. okay so how many would you have to eat? Didnt the Irish only eat potatoes during some famine and they survived?

you would have to eat a lot of potatoes. There's about 9g of protein (not including possible keto acid protein) per pound of potatoes. Yes the Irish utilized potatoes during their famine. Tubers are a great famine food. The question isn't can you survive on potatoes, b/c that's already been proven, it's whether you can thrive on potatoes in our current living situation.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 115461

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Vegans remind me of the paleo folks, they are so religiously invested in their ideas that if somebody mentions something negative about their approach, they start to get angry/emotional because their ideas are very personal to them. Well, sorry to break it to you, I will continue eating my lamb, vegans, and I will continue drinking copious amounts of sugars in the form of fruits and milk and even sometimes starch, paleo people. See, being free of dogmas and diets, you can be anything; some days vegan, somedays lion style eating meats, etc.,. This way, you will be less resistant to opposing new ideas because you're no longer living in the bubble you've created for yourself. Before you decide to be paleo or vegan, please read the testimonials of people who have wrecked their healths following such restrictive diets. Disclaimer: I love fruits and vegetables and the plant world. In fact, I am now boiling some white bottom mushrooms

Heh I eat basically "paleo" right now or anti inflammatory diet or how they call it.. I learned so much from Peat and this forum, but Peat diet style is tabu for me.. Finally. I feel that my health slowly improved. I cut eggs, butter, coconut oil, dairy (except CFM whey)

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Yura, this guy refutes some things you've mentioned here, and judging from that picture you posted a while back, he's the same size as you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPynDBQdupY

The whole "vegan men are p**sies and small and weak" etc. is itself a really weak argument. I'll put together all of the vegan male youtubers who are healthy and actually post constant videos and updates of themselves unlike many paleo/keto guys.

But even if it's not a male beauty contest, you can't argue with someone who looks, feels and acts healthy and you especially can't argue with good blood tests results.

Cory posted one of the B12 studies: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/2/693S.full

Approximately 16% or 48 million Americans were B12 defiecnt in 2013. Since vegans are less than 2% of the population, those people with B12 deficiency were not vegan.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 115486

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Yura, this guy refutes some things you've mentioned here, and judging from that picture you posted a while back, he's the same size as you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPynDBQdupY

The whole "vegan men are p**sies and small and weak" etc. is itself a really weak argument. I'll put together all of the vegan male youtubers who are healthy and actually post constant videos and updates of themselves unlike many paleo/keto guys.

But even if it's not a male beauty contest, you can't argue with someone who looks, feels and acts healthy and you especially can't argue with good blood tests results.

Cory posted one of the B12 studies: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/2/693S.full

Approximately 16% or 48 million Americans were B12 defiecnt in 2013. Since vegans are less than 2% of the population, those people with B12 deficiency were not vegan.

So again
"it makes sense that you CAN'T find population of vegans around the world."

" Simply show me couple of healthy vegan generations...''

arguments?

 

[Zachs]

post 115488

post 115486

post 115456

post 115450 Being a vegan is putting unnecessary restrictions on yourself... Enjoy food that makes you alive, either fruits, milk, or meat.

I think it is more important for their ego than their health. They think like they are something better or what. " I'm a vegan.."

Yura, this guy refutes some things you've mentioned here, and judging from that picture you posted a while back, he's the same size as you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPynDBQdupY

The whole "vegan men are p**sies and small and weak" etc. is itself a really weak argument. I'll put together all of the vegan male youtubers who are healthy and actually post constant videos and updates of themselves unlike many paleo/keto guys.

But even if it's not a male beauty contest, you can't argue with someone who looks, feels and acts healthy and you especially can't argue with good blood tests results.

Cory posted one of the B12 studies: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/2/693S.full

Approximately 16% or 48 million Americans were B12 defiecnt in 2013. Since vegans are less than 2% of the population, those people with B12 deficiency were not vegan.

So again
"it makes sense that you CAN'T find population of vegans around the world."

" Simply show me couple of healthy vegan generations...''

arguments?

7th day adventist.

Also there is a whole generation being born and raised by vegans and fed vegan. Many are on youtube and whatnit, they seem amazingly healthy.

 

[Zachs]

As for people nit understanding vegans, cows are the biggest issue with our planet bar none. Just not eating meat would have a unbelievably positive impact. Don't get caught up in the minutiae, just do what's best for this planet. Limiting or avoiding meat is huge. And don't say that it is unsustainable to feed the world on plants. The vast majority grown is fed to livestock.

 

[Brian]

7th day adventist.

Also there is a whole generation being born and raised by vegans and fed vegan. Many are on youtube and whatnit, they seem amazingly healthy.

By the way Zach, are you still eating high fat? How did that work out for you?

 

[Zachs]

post 115509

7th day adventist.

Also there is a whole generation being born and raised by vegans and fed vegan. Many are on youtube and whatnit, they seem amazingly healthy.

By the way Zach, are you still eating high fat? How did that work out for you?

Hey Brian, I did for quite awhile with no real downside except that I got really sick of the foods, things like eggs and chocolate really started to gross me out.

Im kind of middling between high fat and high sugar/starch. Usually not at the same time. Ultimately I feel like I'm at a place where I can eat whatever I like with no real negative effects. The only things I truly avoid are PUFA, meat and fortified iron.

 

[Strongbad]

I honestly don't care much about the ethics of being vegans. I only care about what works in getting my health better.

And now that I've been experimenting with various Peatarians diet for 10 months, from drinking only OJ, milk plus lots of coconut oil plus some gelatin to eating lots of starch, less sugar and more shellfish, I can say that the almost-vegan approach (90 percent tube plants + cooked vegetables with some shellfish and little dairy and almost zero fat) works best. At least when it comes to how I feel, having energy and weight loss. Much better than the default Peating diet.

Note that Westside PUFA only says that Ray Peat Vegan diet is **possible**. He's not endorsing going completely vegan. Even Okinawan diet has some meat and dairly in it, it's just that they're miniscule compared to the amount of potatoes and vegetables they consume daily, around 1 to 2 percent-ish. They also like fish and shellfish.

Also remember that typical Vegans are not exactly healthy, either:
1) They don't avoid PUFA and legumes, like avocados, nuts, seeds
2) They don't avoid soy products
3) They lack many minerals that are often found in meat products like zinc, calcium, taurine etc.

BTW, I wonder where Vegans get food full of vitamin B1 (thiamine), B2, B3, B6, B12, Biotin, Zinc and Taurine. Heck, I don't even know where to get them in dairly/meat/fish products Also, what green vegetables have the most calcium?

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 115515 I honestly don't care much about the ethics

post 115515I only care about getting my health better.

Then you might have a hard time at that...

 

[ThunderSpank]

Thanks for the info Westside! Much appreciated!

 

[michael94]

.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It should be noted that when talking about veganism, the discussion should be separated into two separate categories:

1. The health/nutrtion aspects of veganism, which is what this "Ray Peat Vegan" post is about.

and 2. The ethical/social/environmental aspects of veganism.

They are two separate subjects.

This post is mainly about one thing: The way to obtain quality amino acids, not quantity but quality, in order to ensure proper liver function on a 100% vegan diet from the point of view of a Ray Peat Vegan. I shouldn't have even mentioned iodine and selenium because upon further research, a vegan diet based off of the foods I mentioned would provide plenty of minerals especially because one does not simply consume foods grown in one area. We consume foods grown from all over the globe. Iodine shouldn't have even been mentioned because simply sucking a small piece of seaweed without even swallowing once a month would provide enough iodine and a little selenium goes a long way. Peat just views nutrition in a "just to be sure" sense, as in one would say "I eat a shellfish around once a week or even bi-weekly just to be sure I get selenium." Everyone talking about all other nutrients is missing the point. The only thing that matters here is quality amino acids as to maintain healthy liver function and as you saw Ray's answer, he said yes, those foods provide enough quality amino acids. This is something that needs to be explored and practiced by people who are interested in being RPVegans. If you're not interested, then this post isn't for you. Your comments are a waste of time and energy. It's good to be open minded and to not be rude to potential RP Vegans. Vegans are people too and some may be inspired by Peat in all aspects, not just diet, and instead of telling them they are stupid and that their diet is deficient, we should welcome them and say, well, this is what a RP Vegan would do...

About the number 2 aspect of veganism, The brilliant Sam Harris recently said this:

"I’m not satisfied with mere confession, let’s look at what we just confessed. We are two people who have admitted to participating in a system that is not only in some sense objectively bad, but perhaps so bad that is the kind of thing that will be on the short list of embarrassments to our descendants. We’re both conceding that the way we treat, raise, and consume animals is probably a moral scandal of the order of burning ‘witches’ alive..."

and Harris isn't even vegan, though he's asked people to help him by sending him the best information they have on nutrition. That's one of the reasons I think A Ray Peat Vegan may be valuable, to step in and say "hey, check your PTH levels..."

 

[ThunderSpank]

post 115539 It should be noted that when talking about veganism, the discussion should be separated into two separate categories:

1. The health/nutrtion aspects of veganism, which is what this "Ray Peat Vegan" post is about.

and 2. The ethical/social/environmental aspects of veganism.

They are two separate subjects.

This post is mainly about one thing: The way to obtain quality amino acids, not quantity but quality, in order to ensure proper liver function on a 100% vegan diet from the point of view of a Ray Peat Vegan. I shouldn't have even mentioned iodine and selenium because upon further research, a vegan diet based off of the foods I mentioned would provide plenty of minerals especially because one does not simply consume foods grown in one area. We consume foods grown from all over the globe. Iodine shouldn't have even been mentioned because simply sucking a small piece of seaweed without even swallowing once a month would provide enough iodine and a little selenium goes a long way. Peat just views nutrition in a "just to be sure" sense, as in one would say "I eat a shellfish around once a week or even bi-weekly just to be sure I get selenium." Everyone talking about all other nutrients is missing the point. The only thing that matters here is quality amino acids as to maintain healthy liver function and as you saw Ray's answer, he said yes, those foods provide enough quality amino acids. This is something that needs to be explored and practiced by people who are interested in being RPVegans. If you're not interested, then this post isn't for you. Your comments are a waste of time and energy. It's good to be open minded and to not be rude to potential RP Vegans. Vegans are people too and some may be inspired by Peat in all aspects, not just diet, and instead of telling them they are stupid and that their diet is deficient, we should welcome them and say, well, this is what a RP Vegan would do...

About the number 2 aspect of veganism, The brilliant Sam Harris recently said this:

"I’m not satisfied with mere confession, let’s look at what we just confessed. We are two people who have admitted to participating in a system that is not only in some sense objectively bad, but perhaps so bad that is the kind of thing that will be on the short list of embarrassments to our descendants. We’re both conceding that the way we treat, raise, and consume animals is probably a moral scandal of the order of burning ‘witches’ alive..."

and Harris isn't even vegan, though he's asked people to help him by sending him the best information they have on nutrition. That's one of the reasons I think A Ray Peat Vegan may be valuable, to step in and say "hey, check your PTH levels..."

For most of my life I've been fighting a moral battle within myself. I love animals very much and don't wish to cause or contribute to their demise or harm in any way shape or form. After talking to Ray a little bit, doing more research, and finally reading this post, I'm not going to consume animal products anymore, I can't be the human I wish to be if I'm doing something àgaist what I feel is right. I'm 100% convinced I don't need animal products to be healthy. Thanks again Westside and everyone else.

 

[SaraNZ]

Interesting post. You are right that a Ray Peat Vegan would be a special type of Vegan. As typical vegans avoid Sugar and stuff their faces with nuts and seeds (PUFAs). The Ray Peat Vegan diet is like a Vegan on steroids. But I don't see the harm in milk and cheese? No animals have to die when eating milk and cheese. Ray peats diet is already pretty vegetarian as muscle meats are not really recommended by Peat.

Hello! Firstly, this is my first post I'm so happy to be part of this forum and it's this vegan thread that has inspired me to actually join in. I am 'mostly vegan' and have slowly been working out how to do it while staying optimally healthy. I eat oysters now and then, and some eggs from a neighbour.

Vinero, I wanted to address your question. From what I see (and I'm a postgrad nutrition student, so I've seen a lot of research), the main issues with dairy are ethical, not nutritional. Many vegans say milk is basically poison, but I don't agree. I think it's a fine food for humans, but the large-scale production of it is quite inhumane and also environmentally destructive. Here in NZ we have poisoning of the rivers and ground water with e-coli and nitrogenous waste from dairying, and also issues with too much water being taken from the rivers for irrigation - dairy cows eat a lot. From an animal welfare point of view, the cows have to be pregnant every year in order to keep providing milk. If they don't get pregnant, they get slaughtered. The calves are 'waste product' and are treated as such. Most go to petfood within a few days of birth, causing a distressing scene when they are taken from their mothers. I see them in their cages on the side of the road, awaiting pickup for slaughter and it's quite heartbreaking. Then, because the cows are overstressed, their milk production drops within a few years and they are slaughtered at a young age.

So, those are the arguments for a dairy-free eating plan. I have no judgement on anyone that eats dairy, but because I've seen the inside of the dairy industry with my own eyes, I just can't go there. My main issue with not eating dairy or meat is protein and calcium, so I'm glad to see this thread.I need to eat lentils to get my protein up to about 70g a day and I find it hard to get over 750mg a day for calcium, even with a ***t-tonne of greens. I'm not sure how much comes out when you boil them though.. (?)

Anyway, so nice to be here and I'm looking forward to learning a lot.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 115473 Which aspect from the vid are you concerned with?

Mainly the claim about destroying the beta cells of the pancreas/type 1 diabetes.

post 115553 'm not going to consume animal products anymore, I can't be the human I wish to be if I'm doing something àgaist what I feel is right. I'm 100% convinced I don't need animal products to be healthy. Thanks again Westside and everyone else.

Follow your heart TS. Don't be too hard on yourself if you slip up. It's not a big deal.

post 115354 where's the b12 coming from?

How come when one chooses to be vegan, all of a sudden people say "where is X nutrient going to come from" yet when everyone else is eating an omnivorous diet filled with egg yolks and liver and also simultaneously takes pure mega doses of retinyl palmitate no one bats an eye? All of a sudden the vegan can't also opt to take vitamin A just like the yolk and liver eater does? Because he/she is vegan they are not allowed to supplement like the omnivore does?

 

[SaraNZ]

post 115515 90 percent tube plants + cooked vegetables with some shellfish and little dairy and almost zero fat) works best.

Me too Strongbad, but with lots of fruit also. I have a serious autoimmune (ITP) condition and the only eating plan that has ever improved it is virtually no fat. It was... not tasty, and I've not managed to stick with it for long stretches. The longest was 3 months and I had my highest platelet count ever.