Vegetarians Look So Young

Jennifer

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Thank you, @GreekDemiGod. :) I learned a lot about myself during that time so I have no regrets. Plus, because I was so isolated due to the injury and forced to get routine blood work and other testing (monthly), I was able to see how different diets, based on real food, not some lab concocted rat chow, affected my biology without too many confounding factors muddying the waters.

It was about 2 years on high-carb/low-fat cooked plant-based—mainly fruit, root veggies, baby lettuces and to a lesser extent, sprouted oats and legumes—before the depression got so bad that I resorted to 80/10/10. That, and I still hadn’t gotten my period back and my weight wouldn’t budge past 41 kg—healthy for me is around 45 kg. I had come across one of Douglas Graham’s talks and after reading his book and seeing that the diet could help with depression and optimizing hormones and weight, I went raw. For the first two years, I felt great getting all those simple sugars and finally gained some weight but it eventually wrecked my digestion, left me ravenous and in hindsight, I was almost manic. I’d have days where I felt euphoric just being alive and then others where I was riddled with anxiety, and then my weight started dropping quickly. I think within 4 months I was down to 31 kg. I was working with a naturopath at the time and she had me reintroduce starches just a few months prior to fracturing.

Knowing what I know now, I can totally see the warning signs that my thyroid was tanking. For example, we know the role of thyroid in copper metabolism, well, my hair is naturally quite dark, including my eyelashes and eyebrows, and it turned a light copper. My hair goes auburn if I spend a lot of time out in the sun so at first, I hadn’t noticed the change. My hair also stopped growing, including my body hair. I have long, thick eyelashes—I have the genetic mutation, distichiasis, where I have multiple rows of lashes—but during that time, they became sparse and it was as if I had trimmed them down to my lash line, my eyebrows developed bald patches and hair stopped coming in on my legs. Then there was my skin. It became so orange that nurses questioned if I had jaundice. Even my liver suffered. I developed “sludge” as the tech doing the ultrasound called it, and gallbladder attacks. Ray said in an interview that without exception, anyone with gallbladder disease is chronically hypothyroid.

Anyhow, my apologies if my post came off like I was judging your current dietary experiment. It wasn’t directed at you. I have 12 years of vegetarianism and another 4 years of veganism to add to the almost 5 years of veganism I described above so a long history with plant-based, and given the topic of the thread, I thought I could add something to the conversation.

From my understanding, we want a relatively sterile small intestine, but not a sterile large intestine so the idea of a sterile gut doesn’t seem possible or even healthy to me outside of a lab setting, but I could be wrong. Not that I’m endorsing it but even on the stereotypical Peaty milk and OJ diet, we get plenty of bacteria from the milk, and unless we’re ultra filtering our juice like with coffee filters, we’re getting fiber from the OJ. I get what you mean about the similarity between Peatarians who avoid certain foods and carnivores/keto dieters. I tolerate gluten just fine but prior to veganism, I was never much of a starch eater so a dairy and fruit diet comes natural to me, however, if that weren’t the case, I’d be working toward tolerating the foods I enjoy. That’s exactly what I did with dairy. It took me 10 years of a digestive nightmare to tolerate it again but I kept going back to it, not because Ray said it was good, but because even as a child, I knew it was good. And really, if you think about it, even people not following specific diets have foods they like and foods they won’t touch. We all have our preferences. I think problems arise when someone won’t consume a food out of fear of something they heard or read, despite experiencing nothing negative from it.
 

Jennifer

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You see this reaction over and over again with all different types of diets. Low carb doesn't work? Carbs aren't low enough yet. Low fat doesn't work? Fat isn't low enough yet. Fasting doesn't work? Your fasting periods aren't long enough. Raw vegan doesn't work? You need to eat even more raw food without cooking anything. They "Ray Peat approach" doesn't work? You didn't try the daily carrot salad and your PUFA intake is too high with 2.5g a day. You even see it on this forum. Some people seem to feel offended when Dr. Peat eats oatmeal for breakfast. It goes against the "Peat dogma" that never existed in the first place.

Ohh…yeah. I think when we’re not truly confident in what we believe, we rely on external validation and this inevitably breeds dogma. We can easily feel our beliefs are under attack if the external isn’t confirming them and it’s as if we feel lied to when the ones we’re getting our confidence from change what they believe. I think this is where personal experience, even if disastrous, is a blessing. Can you imagine if instead of his oat and low protein experiment, Ray talked about his wheat germ experiment when it was still new and because people respect his opinion so much, they followed suit? :oops:

Once you become so rigid in your way of thinking, it's easier to look for such extremes, unrealistic as they may be, instead of simply admitting that your way of life doesn't work for everyone and that there's more than one way to skin the cat.

This 1000%.

Good to hear. I wish you all the best along the way.

Thank you, Luke. ❤️
 

ironfist

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Yes, I’be changed my mind dozens of times.
It seems that individuals with a high metabolism can do fine with a bit lower protein intake and achieve good muscle mass.
@Razvan is one example
Are you certain?

I'm pretty fast metabolism (I used to be a bodybuilder) and had to eat 6000 calories a day or so just to maintain my small weight. When I would miss a feeding I would lose weight super fast.

I never had "good muscle mass" even on a constant bulking diet. I mean maybe it was ok... I had some issues that made me think I was small. At my largest I was 175lbs @ 6% bf 5'9". My bf is pretty much 6% regardless of what I eat. I'm talking an entire large pizza for dinner number 1, multiple burgers and stuff per day, etc.

Sure, I made mistakes and probably overtrained a lot and didn't know lots about diet (my diet was literally eat as much as possible -- i took the hugest poops).

I've never heard before that fast metabolism means less protein to achieve good muscle mass. Tell that to ectomorphs and they'll laugh nonstop.
 

ironfist

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@GreekDemiGod, I averaged 50 to 60 grams because I consumed a kilo of greens and a concentrated green juice powder daily. I believe calcium intake influences bone density, sure, as well as so many other things—vitamins A, D, K, amino acids, phosphorus, sodium/salt, fructose, calories in general, thyroid/parathyroid function, CO2, estrogen, serotonin, cortisol, digestion, absorption, utilization and elimination, gravity/weight-bearing exercises—everything affects everything so the list goes on and on. I mean, even our thoughts and the energy of those around us affect our biology. Have you ever known someone who made you so silly happy just being with them that your health improved or known someone who made you miserable and you came down with something?

Then there are the stressors that we think are virtuous, but are actually harming us. I believe one of the biggest stressors for those of us into health is overriding cravings. Some see it as a healthy form of discipline, and I did too but constantly overriding my cravings while vegan, and for years, did me in. When I let go of what I thought I should be consuming and just went with cravings, I was having liters of milk, a kilo of cheese, half a kilo of scallops or crab etc. daily and saw my health improve, not just by feeling, but even routine testing confirmed this. On paper, one would think I shouldn’t need so much protein because I’m a tiny woman and yet my body craves these protein rich foods. If a person genuinely enjoys high carb, low protein plant foods and not so much the animal proteins, they may thrive on 100% plant-based. I just know I wasn’t one of them, and I wanted to be one of them because I believed it was more ethical. I have a different view now but that’s a whole other topic.
What you wrote here is gold.

Some people, for example my narcissist mom, put me in such a bad mood constantly. I feel horrible literally being around her quite often. Because of this, I am codependent and tend to have a lot of narcissists in my life. It was during a time like this I developed the worst health issues.

Some other people just make you crazy joyful and you love being around them.

The second half is great, too. I was a vegetarian for too long and developed biological problems during this time, additionally. COMBINED WITH THE STRESS OF BEING WITH NARCISSISTS IT WAS TERRIBLE.
 

ironfist

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Some vegans look super young, some carnivores look super young, some people who don't give a **** and eat anything they want also look super young.

Oh, and people who do sexual transmutation work tend to age in reverse, too.

There's more to health than food....
Post more about this?
 

ironfist

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Let's not forget genes.

Some people age fast.

I remember in jr. high there were the kids who looked "older." You know, you're like 12, and these kids look 16. They age "faster." Is it epigenetics?

You see them now on facebook and they still look older.
 

GreekDemiGod

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A PM I wrote:

I change my mind often, so can't guarantee what I will be doing 2 weeks for now.
I do want to diversify my carb intake - a mix of fruits, some tubers or grains, to try a higher fiber intake in the idea to populate and enrich the gut microbiome.
I found a book: Fiber Fueled that I ordered and want to read.

But I am not sure I will quit animal products, but instead eat them in moderation. Too nutrient-dense to give them up completely.
 

GreekDemiGod

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@Jennifer Yeah, I doubt I could ever be full plant-based. I sometimes have phases where the idea becomes appealing. Then I’m over it quickly.
Ate lentils for the last couple of days. Perhaps I didn’t made a more tasty dish, but the lentils didn’t taste that great. Peasant food.
And the idea of eating leaves is not appealing to me at all.
I do salivate at the idea of fries, baked potatoes, warm baked sweet potatoes, oatmeal with fruits and honey. Sometimes I crave some peas. But not leaves of any kind.

I do enjoy quality cheeses or milk and could eat a lot of it, but I can’t do that anymore, my body fat kept increasing on high carb + high fats.
 

SamYo123

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Come to think about it, many of the problems with vegan and vegetarian diets come from under-eating and caloric restriction. That leads to too low body fat levels and muscle mass. This is what creates the sunken face look: too low bodyfat levels.
But chronically undereating on an omnivore diet will also lead to problems.
So eating at maintenance or even having periods of hyper-caloric eating will ensure that you get enough micronutrients not to run into problems. Plants might be less nutrient dense, but if you're eating a 3000 calories diet, does it really matter much.
On top of that, if we consider the protein-sparing effect of carbs, I can't see why 50g would not be enough for the average, non-lifter individual.

Yesterday, I listened to this podcast, and at some point, they mention about their daily carb intake being 600-700g / day!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIvfC985U8


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zy2RBOPX_A&t=127s
 

Jennifer

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@ironfist, I’m really sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine it’s difficult not becoming codependent when it’s your mother. Probably just a coincidence but something I’ve noticed is how many of us who experienced challenging childhoods became vegetarians. May I ask how long you were vegetarian for?

@GreekDemiGod, have you ever had the sweet potato variety called Murasaki? It looks like this:

1648908703430.jpeg

It tastes almost like vanilla cake. I used to eat kilos of them daily. I used to make them into potato boats. I steamed them but they’re better baked IMO, sliced the top of their jacket, mashed the flesh and mixed in some garlic powder, salt and a little bit of coconut cream. Kabocha squash was another staple of mine. It tastes like an orange sweet potato, but has this light, fluffy texture. Anyhow, it sounds like you have a good plan in place and are wise enough to switch things up if it isn’t working for you. When you say that you enjoy quality cheese or milk but your body fat kept increasing on high carb + high fats, you don’t like low-fat milk or you don’t tolerate it?
 

Jennifer

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@GreekDemiGod, yes I have both via blood and urine—I test my urine (Brix) with a refractometer. It’s why I avoid starch, meat and plain water—they reliably trigger my hypoglycemia. I’ve measured as low as 50. If you struggle with blood sugar issues, Brix testing can be helpful in identifying your problematic times of day, which foods trigger high or low blood sugar and what Brix you feel best at. By testing my Brix, I figured out that my problematic times of day are between the hours of 3 am and 4 am, 10 am and 11 am and 2 pm and 3 pm, starch, meat and plain water crash my blood sugar but not dairy, eggs, simple sugars and osmotically balanced fluids, and my sweet spot is a Brix between 1.5 and 2. What’s interesting is my mum’s blood sugar crashed between the same hours and she had the same dietary triggers.
 
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Danny Roddy jumping on the fiber bandwagon(oat bran)View attachment 35348
Does he have a website? I know he has a YouTube channel.

Speaking of oat bran, I don’t know if this applies to anyone else, but I find oat bran an easier fiber to digest. Even better than oat
meal. It doesn’t bloat me like other fibers do. And plus, it is so darn tasty! It’s like cream of wheat except it’s oats. Oat bran for the win for me:thumbsup: It makes delicious muffins too!
 

GreekDemiGod

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Does he have a website? I know he has a YouTube channel.

Speaking of oat bran, I don’t know if this applies to anyone else, but I find oat bran an easier fiber to digest. Even better than oat
meal. It doesn’t bloat me like other fibers do. And plus, it is so darn tasty! It’s like cream of wheat except it’s oats. Oat bran for the win for me:thumbsup: It makes delicious muffins too!
It’s from his Twitter account. But probably shares the same posts on Telegram.
 

Vajra

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@ironfist, I’m really sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine it’s difficult not becoming codependent when it’s your mother. Probably just a coincidence but something I’ve noticed is how many of us who experienced challenging childhoods became vegetarians. May I ask how long you were vegetarian for?

@GreekDemiGod, have you ever had the sweet potato variety called Murasaki? It looks like this:

View attachment 35265

It tastes almost like vanilla cake. I used to eat kilos of them daily. I used to make them into potato boats. I steamed them but they’re better baked IMO, sliced the top of their jacket, mashed the flesh and mixed in some garlic powder, salt and a little bit of coconut cream. Kabocha squash was another staple of mine. It tastes like an orange sweet potato, but has this light, fluffy texture.
Love 'em. Whole different level than the orange ones, lol. Do you have a secret to getting them perfect every time? IME, roasting them (say at 350°F for 90 minutes) it's annoying cooking a bach where some of them have that perfect texture you're talking about (dry like cake with that chestnut flavor, or sometimes even like a fruity, vanilla cereal) while others are still totally starchy or moist!!1
I guess it's pretty dependent on the curing process. But maybe I should try the method where you cook them for sevreal hours at a low temp.
 
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