Jackfruit - The Protein Surprise!

thetaflow

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but my main sources of sodium are milk and fruit
That makes sense - your aldosterone just never had the need to adjust. Milk has slightly more than 1/2 of the sodium in say celery juice, so going by the RP articles I read on sodium, I'm guessing you aren't exactly "peating" in the sodium sense, but still feeling good, so as long as it works for you. I went years without any added salt at all (just raw plants) and did long, heavy exercise, including in intense heat. Had white salty streaks on my face after and everything. Hard to say, but might have been another reason for my health going south - experimenting with unlimited (to taste) amounts of added salt right now.
I don’t go on Instagram so I don’t know if this is true or not but supposedly, Fit Shortie Eats stopped posting pics of him after people expressed concern that he was so underdeveloped.
It's possible - no idea, I don't really follow anyone anymore either, but if I had a kid right now, I most likely wouldn't raise him vegan knowing what I know (and there certainly was a time when I would have said otherwise).
didn’t seek treatment (refused antibiotics?) until it was too late
Something like that. Seemed perfectly healthy, but very quickly went downhill from an infection due to the kidney function.
Cappi always seemed really sweet and intelligent
Love Cappi - nice kid indeed, but not at all athletic and possibly underdeveloped as well. I grew up in a very different environment, but we were all way fitter at that age.
I have that fruitarian high on life, euphoric feeling, but grounded
Goals lol
it was honestly scary as heck feeling that way. I now understand what was going on biologically
Do you believe it was a lack of (animal) protein?
"meat" of the fruit realm


I always considered the "meat" of the fruit bananas. Extremely practical, filling, satisfying, calorically dense, smooth, widely available.

May I ask what's the fascination on this forum to avoid bananas due to tryptophan, if they really barely contain any?

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So basically I can eat 21 times more calories of bananas than beef, get 1/3 more protein overall, and get the same amount of tryptophan. What's the deal?
 
OP
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That makes sense - your aldosterone just never had the need to adjust. Milk has slightly more than 1/2 of the sodium in say celery juice, so going by the RP articles I read on sodium, I'm guessing you aren't exactly "peating" in the sodium sense, but still feeling good, so as long as it works for you. I went years without any added salt at all (just raw plants) and did long, heavy exercise, including in intense heat. Had white salty streaks on my face after and everything. Hard to say, but might have been another reason for my health going south - experimenting with unlimited (to taste) amounts of added salt right now.

It's possible - no idea, I don't really follow anyone anymore either, but if I had a kid right now, I most likely wouldn't raise him vegan knowing what I know (and there certainly was a time when I would have said otherwise).

Something like that. Seemed perfectly healthy, but very quickly went downhill from an infection due to the kidney function.

Love Cappi - nice kid indeed, but not at all athletic and possibly underdeveloped as well. I grew up in a very different environment, but we were all way fitter at that age.

Goals lol

Do you believe it was a lack of (animal) protein?




I always considered the "meat" of the fruit bananas. Extremely practical, filling, satisfying, calorically dense, smooth, widely available.

May I ask what's the fascination on this forum to avoid bananas due to tryptophan, if they really barely contain any?

View attachment 24979View attachment 24981
View attachment 24980View attachment 24982

So basically I can eat 21 times more calories of bananas than beef, get 1/3 more protein overall, and get the same amount of tryptophan. What's the deal?
I have am not so versed in the Ray Peat banana department thetaflow. I know I love them slightly green, but he says they need to be very ripe. Overall it is the starch and histamines that are mostly the issues. I am with you in that I feel great eating one with a hint of green, way more than meat.

"Bananas and jack-fruit are strong allergens, possibly because of their cultivation methods. Mangos, apples, and pears are allergenic to some people. Poorly ripened fruits of all sorts should be avoided." -Ray Peat
 

Jennifer

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I went years without any added salt at all (just raw plants) and did long, heavy exercise, including in intense heat. Had white salty streaks on my face after and everything. Hard to say, but might have been another reason for my health going south - experimenting with unlimited (to taste) amounts of added salt right now.

How are you feeling with unlimited salt? I meet the RDA for sodium with milk alone because I consume so much of it but in times of stress, I do crave salt. Salt was one of the things I used to lower my adrenaline when I was having daily adrenaline attacks and syncope episodes.

if I had a kid right now, I most likely wouldn't raise him vegan knowing what I know

Same here.

Love Cappi - nice kid indeed, but not at all athletic and possibly underdeveloped as well. I grew up in a very different environment, but we were all way fitter at that age.

Yeah, I question his development given what he has said in videos about being smaller than his friends and then seeing how small he is in Anne’s wedding video—there’s a shot of him in a group photo with Anne, her husband and her other son (?) and his girlfriend/wife. Cappi looks so tiny in comparison to them. The wedding was in 2019 so he was around 15 then, I think.

Do you believe it was a lack of (animal) protein?

I believe it was a combination of things—not enough protein in general (blood work showed I was deficient in it), low cholesterol from all the fiber (it’s been as low as 115 and goes right up when I cut out fiber) and poor thyroid and adrenal function, which resulted in chronically low blood pressure (averaged around 85/50), hypoglycemia (blood glucose as low as 50) and high adrenaline, causing the euphoric highs, and the major lows and manic energy, overall. Good times. lol
 

thetaflow

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I have am not so versed in the Ray Peat banana department thetaflow. I know I love them slightly green, but he says they need to be very ripe. Overall it is the starch and histamines that are mostly the issues. I am with you in that I feel great eating one with a hint of green, way more than meat.

"Bananas and jack-fruit are strong allergens, possibly because of their cultivation methods. Mangos, apples, and pears are allergenic to some people. Poorly ripened fruits of all sorts should be avoided." -Ray Peat
Gotcha. Since the raw days I've only eaten bananas speckled-ripe, even though I loved them with a bit of green through childhood. Used to be my favourite fruit, because I only got to eat them rarely :)
 

thetaflow

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How are you feeling with unlimited salt?
You know, I wish I knew. I wasn't in the best state to start with, and have made so many radical changes in the last few months that I really don't know what's making what difference. Time will tell I guess, and when I'm able to make progress/stabilize, I can probably add/subtract things to pinpoint how I feel more precisely.
I believe it was a combination of things—not enough protein in general (blood work showed I was deficient in it), low cholesterol from all the fiber (it’s been as low as 115 and goes right up when I cut out fiber) and poor thyroid and adrenal function, which resulted in chronically low blood pressure (averaged around 85/50), hypoglycemia (blood glucose as low as 50) and high adrenaline, causing the euphoric highs, and the major lows and manic energy, overall. Good times. lol
Some interesting insight here... 85/50... what? lol. I've experienced some absolutely insane blood work values myself, but this is very low indeed. Were you ever doing any exercise/physical activity?
 
OP
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Gotcha. Since the raw days I've only eaten bananas speckled-ripe, even though I loved them with a bit of green through childhood. Used to be my favourite fruit, because I only got to eat them rarely :)

I miss them :/
 

Jennifer

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You know, I wish I knew. I wasn't in the best state to start with, and have made so many radical changes in the last few months that I really don't know what's making what difference. Time will tell I guess, and when I'm able to make progress/stabilize, I can probably add/subtract things to pinpoint how I feel more precisely.

I totally understand. Been there myself. Was it easy for you to make the changes or did you find it challenging to let go of some of the beliefs you had formed while fruitarian? As much as I was improving, I still had moments when having an off day where I’d idolize my time as a fruitarian and question what the heck I was doing with my life. lol

Some interesting insight here... 85/50... what? lol. I've experienced some absolutely insane blood work values myself, but this is very low indeed. Were you ever doing any exercise/physical activity?

Initially, I had been climbing mountains every weekend and apart from walking my dogs, was pretty much sedentary the rest of the week, but my weight had mysteriously started to plummet so I stopped hiking in hopes of gaining weight back.
 

thetaflow

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Was it easy for you to make the changes or did you find it challenging to let go of some of the beliefs you had formed while fruitarian? As much as I was improving, I still had moments when having an off day where I’d idolize my time as a fruitarian and question what the heck I was doing with my life. lol
This. It isn't easy at all. There are so many deeply ingrained belief systems I've got. I have to work really hard and be open minded enough to keep trying new things and consider new possibilities, even though my body has forgotten how to digest many foods I haven't consumed in years. One of the biggest things I struggle with is visiting farm animals to feed them my compost, and then consuming animal foods. How do you overcome this belief system - because I know you know what I'm talking about. If I could, I would leave them completely alone, and just keep them as pets, but it truly seems like being vegan without supplementation has gotten me in trouble back in the day, and I don't like the idea of a very "thorough" supplemental protocol because it gets a bit neurotic, and I'm not sure if it's sustainable long-term with supply chains being more fragile than we realize.
Initially, I had been climbing mountains every weekend and apart from walking my dogs, was pretty much sedentary the rest of the week, but my weight had mysteriously started to plummet so I stopped hiking in hopes of gaining weight back.
Jennifer, I've been reading a bunch of threads the last few days, and I often come across your posts. Could you talk about the spine/kyphosis/scoliosis issues, and how they possibly relate to your dietary experimentation? I'm not quite clear as to whether you went fruitarian to fix your spine, or it got worse on the diet. I ask because I can truly relate to this - during my years of raw veganism and especially after water fasting, I developed pretty intense hypermobility. Basically, my joints crack, pop and go out of place very easily, especially along my spine. While I'm tall and lanky, it certainly wasn't like this in my teens prior to my experimentation. I wonder if it's got to do with with a lower protein intake, especially of amino acids such as glycine, leading to a deficient extracellular matrix (which would explain other issues as well), and thus connective tissue issues as well. While I had had no problem gaining large amounts of muscle mass several times (like after my fast) on 100% raw vegan, perhaps it's not the only measure of "adequate protein"?
 

Jennifer

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This. It isn't easy at all. There are so many deeply ingrained belief systems I've got. I have to work really hard and be open minded enough to keep trying new things and consider new possibilities, even though my body has forgotten how to digest many foods I haven't consumed in years. One of the biggest things I struggle with is visiting farm animals to feed them my compost, and then consuming animal foods. How do you overcome this belief system - because I know you know what I'm talking about. If I could, I would leave them completely alone, and just keep them as pets, but it truly seems like being vegan without supplementation has gotten me in trouble back in the day, and I don't like the idea of a very "thorough" supplemental protocol because it gets a bit neurotic, and I'm not sure if it's sustainable long-term with supply chains being more fragile than we realize.

I understand and feel for you. The struggle is real. Even with all the research I’ve done that proved to me that I was causing more harm to myself and other animals by being vegan, even fruitarian—just the Crop Protection Program alone and the full scope of what it entails was a real eye opener—I struggled big time when I first reintroduced animal protein. I had nightmares most nights and I know it contributed to my 6 months straight of daily convulsions and syncope episodes. My nervous system was shot.

As much as I tried, knowing my nature (too woo-woo for the forum to explain publicly), meat isn’t for me but also knowing that I need animal protein to survive, I worked toward tolerating dairy again and found the most humane farm I could that practices calf at foot. The animals don’t have the choice to roam the earth freely, but they also don’t have the potential suffering that comes with it. They have acres to roam, protection from the elements and predators (Great Pyrenees guard them), and a constant supply of food.

For me, the idea that I should leave animals alone, as if we aren’t all connected and don’t depend on each other, was of good intention but flawed. It’s hard to explain to those who think that animal “products” automatically equal cruelty, but I’m more ethical now than I was as a vegan, and the same can hold true for those who eat meat. Veganism made me aware that we as a whole have forgotten what it means to be good “shepherds” and WAPF taught me that there are some that still exist, we just need to find and support them.

Jennifer, I've been reading a bunch of threads the last few days, and I often come across your posts. Could you talk about the spine/kyphosis/scoliosis issues, and how they possibly relate to your dietary experimentation? I'm not quite clear as to whether you went fruitarian to fix your spine, or it got worse on the diet.

The short answer—both. I’ll try my best to condense my history with fruitarianism. In my mid 20s when my weight started to plummet, I tried a few WOE (high-carb paleo and WFPB) in an attempt to gain weight but continued to waste away until I was down to 69 lb. I came across Doug’s talk online and after almost 3 years of following 80/10/10, I was up to 80 lb but plateaued (normal for me is around 99 lb), I developed chronic diarrhea, had an injury that wouldn’t heal (torn cartilage in my chest) and deficiencies had set in. I sought the help of doctors, even went to the ER numerous times for severe back pain, but was written off as anorexic/starving myself due to my weight and went untreated, and one afternoon while lifting half a watermelon, I heard a crunching sound and felt the most horrifying pain as my spinal column collapsed under me. 12 fractures later, I had lost 4” of height in my midsection, which compressed my intestines, causing chronic bloating and what I not so fondly referred to as FOS, my food baby.

I was referred to a new doctor who put me on a dairy-based WAPF diet which improved my bone density by 50% and got me to 95 lb, but due to the spinal compression and unknowingly, hypothyroidism and SIBO induced gastritis, I developed crippling gut pain, allergic reactions to dairy and was unable to get my period back so I went on to try other WOE and protocols. I tried raw carnivore, RBTI with its thousands of dollars worth of tests and supplements, refeeding on 6000+ kcals daily, the diet Ray told me he recommends, cooked carnivore and starch-based vegan but due to a misdiagnosis, I went untreated yet again and continued to deteriorate until all I could tolerate was raw fruit. I found Dr. Morse, spent over $8,000 in herbal formulas, got my menstrual cycle and was feeling the best I had in maybe forever but after 3 years, it was 80/10/10 all over again. I started showing major signs of deficiencies so I reintroduced animal protein, a new doctor discovered the misdiagnosis, I worked at clearing the issue, and here I am finally healing. :)

I ask because I can truly relate to this - during my years of raw veganism and especially after water fasting, I developed pretty intense hypermobility. Basically, my joints crack, pop and go out of place very easily, especially along my spine. While I'm tall and lanky, it certainly wasn't like this in my teens prior to my experimentation. I wonder if it's got to do with with a lower protein intake, especially of amino acids such as glycine, leading to a deficient extracellular matrix (which would explain other issues as well), and thus connective tissue issues as well. While I had had no problem gaining large amounts of muscle mass several times (like after my fast) on 100% raw vegan, perhaps it's not the only measure of "adequate protein"?

How are your thyroid and parathyroid glands? Are your temps and pulse good? Did you ever turn orange, particularly in your palms, while fruitarian? Hyper-mobility/poor connective tissue integrity sounds thyroid/parathyroid, and potentially catabolic hormone, related. I had it, too. You say you are tall and lanky—do you tend to run on adrenaline? And when you say you had no problem gaining large amounts of muscle mass on 100% raw vegan, was it the same amount of muscle mass you had prior to raw? I tend toward lankiness too, but there’s definitely a difference between my body while fruitarian and my body while dairy-based. I wasn’t bone thin while 100% raw but without any physical effort, I weigh exactly the same now as I did then and my clothes are way looser on me, especially in my waist. I’ve been far less active due to lockdowns and yet I have way more muscle, for me anyways. I’m certainly no Schwarzenegger. lol
 
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thetaflow

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As much as I tried, knowing my nature (too woo-woo for the forum to explain publicly), meat isn’t for me but also knowing that I need animal protein to survive, I worked toward tolerating dairy again and found the most humane farm I could that practices calf at foot. The animals don’t have the choice to roam the earth freely, but they also don’t have the potential suffering that comes with it. They have acres to roam, protection from the elements and predators (Great Pyrenees guard them), and a constant supply of food.
I keep wrestling with the idea of meat - would you consider dairy and eggs an equal or greater substitute? I think Ray puts the two above meat as best protein sources. I've also been lucky enough to locate ethical grass fed a2 cow and goat dairy sources, so it's a good stepping stone. I just wish I could digest it well.
For me, the idea that I should leave animals alone, as if we aren’t all connected and don’t depend on each other, was of good intention but flawed. It’s hard to explain to those who think that animal “products” automatically equal cruelty, but I’m more ethical now than I was as a vegan, and the same can hold true for those who eat meat. Veganism made me aware that we as a whole have forgotten what it means to be good “shepherds” and WAPF taught me that there are some that still exist, we just need to find and support them.
Yes quite a few arguments can be made for keeping animals in terms of permaculture as well - making it arguably more environmentally-friendly via the symbiotic relationship. Unfortunately the way things are heading now, I think there will be massive efforts, taxation, penalties to phase out any sort of animal agriculture under the guise of "climate change". One of the main figures behind what's going on worldwide, coincidentally wants everyone to go vegan - go figure. It was one of the main reasons why I started basically force-experimenting with animal foods, even though it wasn't a good experience from the start. Makes me wonder if you and I got caught in a psyop - before it was mainstream lol.
The short answer—both. I’ll try my best to condense my history with fruitarianism. In my mid 20s when my weight started to plummet, I tried a few WOE (high-carb paleo and WFPB) in an attempt to gain weight but continued to waste away until I was down to 69 lb. I came across Doug’s talk online and after almost 3 years of following 80/10/10, I was up to 80 lb but plateaued (normal for me is around 99 lb), I developed chronic diarrhea, had an injury that wouldn’t heal (torn cartilage in my chest) and deficiencies had set in. I sought the help of doctors, even went to the ER numerous times for severe back pain, but was written off as anorexic/starving myself due to my weight and went untreated, and one afternoon while lifting half a watermelon, I heard a crunching sound and felt the most horrifying pain as my spinal column collapsed under me. 12 fractures later, I had lost 4” of height in my midsection, which compressed my intestines, causing chronic bloating and what I not so fondly referred to as FOS, my food baby.
Absolutely unreal. Did you have to go through spinal fusion/rods or surgery of some sort? How are you recovering? Your disks are actually regenerating?
I was referred to a new doctor who put me on a dairy-based WAPF diet which improved my bone density by 50% and got me to 95 lb, but due to the spinal compression and unknowingly, hypothyroidism and SIBO induced gastritis, I developed crippling gut pain, allergic reactions to dairy and was unable to get my period back so I went on to try other WOE and protocols. I tried raw carnivore, RBTI with its thousands of dollars worth of tests and supplements, refeeding on 6000+ kcals daily, the diet Ray told me he recommends, cooked carnivore and starch-based vegan but due to a misdiagnosis, I went untreated yet again and continued to deteriorate until all I could tolerate was raw fruit. I found Dr. Morse, spent over $8,000 in herbal formulas, got my menstrual cycle and was feeling the best I had in maybe forever but after 3 years, it was 80/10/10 all over again. I started showing major signs of deficiencies so I reintroduced animal protein, a new doctor discovered the misdiagnosis, I worked at clearing the issue, and here I am finally healing. :)
What a ride...
How are your thyroid and parathyroid glands? Are your temps and pulse good?
My last bloodwork was in 2016 - nothing abnormal in the thyroid department that I recall. My temps are pretty good I think - 37C+ in the evenings. Once in a while I'll also have a fever, whether from stress, or something else. Makes me wonder if it's due to an always lingering bacterial and/or viral load that I maybe need to find a way to knock out.
Did you ever turn orange, particularly in your palms, while fruitarian?
There was definitely a time during all-raw that I was very orange - my face too, not just my palms. For sure.
Hyper-mobility/poor connective tissue integrity sounds thyroid/parathyroid, and potentially catabolic hormone, related.
Yeah I could see it. I feel like it started primarily after fasting and just got worse. I was involved in competitive endurance sport my whole life, and I did it while intermittent fasting while on an all-raw diet, trying to cut weight and become "fat adapted". No wonder I destroyed my metabolism back 8 years or so.
I had it, too.
Did it go away? You no longer pop and crack all over?
do you tend to run on adrenaline?
That's me lol. I feel like I'm sympathetic dominant and run on adrenaline, which is why I have a tendency to burn out. I'd really like to change that.
when you say you had no problem gaining large amounts of muscle mass on 100% raw vegan, was it the same amount of muscle mass you had prior to raw?
Well, it's complicated, because I started all raw in my late teens, so I probably kept growing after, and having always been into competitive endurance sport I was lanky my whole life. After my fast, I'd guess I gained upward of 40 lbs of lean mass doing calisthenics for fun (along with heavy endurance training), being able to do maybe 15 pullups or something, but still being lanky lol. Still weighing low-mid 140s at 6ft, but very lean.
I wasn’t bone thin while 100% raw but without any physical effort, I weigh exactly the same now as I did then and my clothes are way looser on me, especially in my waist
That's very interesting. I always attributed weighing less on a raw diet to having less toxins or old solids in my gut, compared to my friends, but I wonder if it had to do with bone density and other tissues as well. I'm actually quite curious - when I'm able to heal my gut and handle the animal foods properly how my body would change. I also have a different outlook on exercise currently, not necessarily due to Ray, but he contributed. Although I firmly believe our physiology is built to run and throw - distance/time being situational. From Hadza (meat based) to Tarahumara (plant based) - they all run a lot. I want to find a way to incorporate that aspect while maintaining healthy hormonal balance, and I think Ray might just not be very well versed in the realm of exercise in general (although he acknowledges that elite athletes don't produce much lactic acid [high mitochondrial density]).
 

Jennifer

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I keep wrestling with the idea of meat - would you consider dairy and eggs an equal or greater substitute? I think Ray puts the two above meat as best protein sources. I've also been lucky enough to locate ethical grass fed a2 cow and goat dairy sources, so it's a good stepping stone. I just wish I could digest it well.

Honestly, I think it’s highly individual. Some thrive on dairy and eggs, while some need meat to feel their best and personally, I don’t think you should feel bad if you fall into the latter group, especially given you’re condition. And even if you need meat now, you may not need it in the future when you’ve healed up. There is no way I would be tolerating dairy now if it weren’t for gelatinous broths and glycine rich shellfish giving my body a chance to clear the SIBO and heal the gastritis. Dairy is an effective bacterial promoter (per Ray), which isn’t a bad thing IMO unless a person has a serious overgrowth and weak peristalsis.

One of the main figures behind what's going on worldwide, coincidentally wants everyone to go vegan - go figure.

Because misery loves company? I wonder who will be eaten first when the meat runs out ?.

Absolutely unreal. Did you have to go through spinal fusion/rods or surgery of some sort? How are you recovering? Your disks are actually regenerating?

For my injury, there’s kyphoplasty—essentially, ballooning the compressed vertebra and injecting it with bone cement to restore its height—but by the time I learned about it, my fractures had already begun healing over so I was no longer a candidate for the surgery. All the specialists could offer me were narcotics, but I refused to take them and instead, just lived with the pain. I’ve come a long way—I learned how to walk again, practice dance like I did prior to fracturing and have even climbed a small mountain, but it isn’t without pain and I have my heart set on climbing a large mountain one last time. For that, I need to strengthen and straighten out my spine more so that I can carry my pack with all my gear. Currently, my pack puts too much pressure on my kyphotic spine, especially for an 8+ hour climb. My bone density continues to increase, but the compressions aren’t quick to reverse, if it’s even possible.

My last bloodwork was in 2016 - nothing abnormal in the thyroid department that I recall. My temps are pretty good I think - 37C+ in the evenings. Once in a while I'll also have a fever, whether from stress, or something else. Makes me wonder if it's due to an always lingering bacterial and/or viral load that I maybe need to find a way to knock out.

Does your temp drop after you’ve eaten? I’m just wondering if the adrenaline is falsely elevating it since you run on adrenaline and have a fever once in a while. That used to happen to me when I was running on adrenaline. If I’m not mistaken, it can even lower TSH. You’ve likely been through the gamut of tests to check for intestinal overgrowths, huh?

There was definitely a time during all-raw that I was very orange - my face too, not just my palms. For sure.

Was it after your fast? Good thyroid function and B12 are needed to convert beta carotene to vitamin A. I resembled an Oompa Loompa, particularly when following 80/10/10. I’ve noticed the same in quite a few vegans, especially on the palms and around the mouth.

Did it go away? You no longer pop and crack all over?

It comes and goes depending on my diet—I continue to trial different foods. If I consume things that bother my gut like whole fruit and certain types of honey, I’ll get joint pain, popping and cracking all over.

Well, it's complicated, because I started all raw in my late teens, so I probably kept growing after, and having always been into competitive endurance sport I was lanky my whole life. After my fast, I'd guess I gained upward of 40 lbs of lean mass doing calisthenics for fun (along with heavy endurance training), being able to do maybe 15 pullups or something, but still being lanky lol. Still weighing low-mid 140s at 6ft, but very lean.

Gotcha. Was it the endurance sports that drew you to LFRV? Your appetite and gut capacity must have been insane to maintain your weight on a raw diet while being an athlete? I was needing over 3000 calories daily while fruitarian and I’m not an athlete, unless you consider a champion eater one. lol How has your performance and recovery been since reintroducing animal protein?

That's very interesting. I always attributed weighing less on a raw diet to having less toxins or old solids in my gut, compared to my friends, but I wonder if it had to do with bone density and other tissues as well. I'm actually quite curious - when I'm able to heal my gut and handle the animal foods properly how my body would change. I also have a different outlook on exercise currently, not necessarily due to Ray, but he contributed. Although I firmly believe our physiology is built to run and throw - distance/time being situational. From Hadza (meat based) to Tarahumara (plant based) - they all run a lot. I want to find a way to incorporate that aspect while maintaining healthy hormonal balance, and I think Ray might just not be very well versed in the realm of exercise in general (although he acknowledges that elite athletes don't produce much lactic acid [high mitochondrial density]).

By old solids do you mean like mucoid plaque? If so, have you ever gone on a forum for medical students studying to become medical examiners and forensic pathologists? I did a google search on mucoid plaque and autopsies once and came across a forum of med students who were asked if they had ever come across mucoid plaque while performing autopsies. Anyhow, I firmly believe our physiology is built to dance. ? *jazz hands* In all seriousness, I agree that we are meant to move our bodies. If you enjoy running and feel your best doing so, I can’t imagine it being bad for you. I know people who find running to be a form of meditation for them.
 

Jennifer

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I keep wrestling with the idea of meat - would you consider dairy and eggs an equal or greater substitute? I think Ray puts the two above meat as best protein sources. I've also been lucky enough to locate ethical grass fed a2 cow and goat dairy sources, so it's a good stepping stone. I just wish I could digest it well.

Honestly, I think it’s highly individual. Some thrive on dairy and eggs, while some need meat to feel their best and personally, I don’t think you should feel bad if you fall into the latter group, especially given your condition. And even if you need meat now, you may not need it in the future when you’ve healed up. There is no way I would be tolerating dairy now if it weren’t for gelatinous broths and glycine rich shellfish giving my body a chance to clear the SIBO and heal the gastritis. Dairy is an effective bacterial promoter (per Ray), which isn’t a bad thing IMO unless a person has a serious overgrowth and weak peristalsis.

One of the main figures behind what's going on worldwide, coincidentally wants everyone to go vegan - go figure.

Because misery loves company? I wonder who will be eaten first when the meat runs out ?.

Absolutely unreal. Did you have to go through spinal fusion/rods or surgery of some sort? How are you recovering? Your disks are actually regenerating?

For my injury, there’s kyphoplasty—essentially, ballooning the compressed vertebra and injecting it with bone cement to restore its height—but by the time I learned about it, my fractures had already begun healing over so I was no longer a candidate for the surgery. All the specialists could offer me were narcotics, but I refused to take them and instead, just lived with the pain. I’ve come a long way—I learned how to walk again, practice dance like I did prior to fracturing and have even climbed a small mountain, but it isn’t without pain and I have my heart set on climbing a large mountain one last time. For that, I need to strengthen and straighten out my spine more so that I can carry my pack with all my gear. Currently, my pack puts too much pressure on my kyphotic spine, especially for an 8+ hour climb. My bone density continues to increase, but the compressions aren’t quick to reverse, if it’s even possible.

My last bloodwork was in 2016 - nothing abnormal in the thyroid department that I recall. My temps are pretty good I think - 37C+ in the evenings. Once in a while I'll also have a fever, whether from stress, or something else. Makes me wonder if it's due to an always lingering bacterial and/or viral load that I maybe need to find a way to knock out.

Does your temp drop after you’ve eaten? I’m just wondering if the adrenaline is falsely elevating it since you run on adrenaline and have a fever once in a while. That used to happen to me when I was running on adrenaline. If I’m not mistaken, it can even lower TSH. You’ve likely been through the gamut of tests to check for intestinal overgrowths, huh?

There was definitely a time during all-raw that I was very orange - my face too, not just my palms. For sure.

Was it after your fast? Good thyroid function and B12 are needed to convert beta carotene to vitamin A. I resembled an Oompa Loompa, particularly when following 80/10/10. I’ve noticed the same in quite a few vegans, especially on the palms and around the mouth.

Did it go away? You no longer pop and crack all over?

It comes and goes depending on my diet—I continue to trial different foods. If I consume things that bother my gut like whole fruit and certain types of honey, I’ll get joint pain, popping and cracking all over.

Well, it's complicated, because I started all raw in my late teens, so I probably kept growing after, and having always been into competitive endurance sport I was lanky my whole life. After my fast, I'd guess I gained upward of 40 lbs of lean mass doing calisthenics for fun (along with heavy endurance training), being able to do maybe 15 pullups or something, but still being lanky lol. Still weighing low-mid 140s at 6ft, but very lean.

Gotcha. Was it the endurance sports that drew you to LFRV? Your appetite and gut capacity must have been insane to maintain your weight on a raw diet while being an athlete? I was needing over 3000 calories daily while fruitarian and I’m not an athlete, unless you consider a champion eater one. lol How has your performance and recovery been since reintroducing animal protein?

That's very interesting. I always attributed weighing less on a raw diet to having less toxins or old solids in my gut, compared to my friends, but I wonder if it had to do with bone density and other tissues as well. I'm actually quite curious - when I'm able to heal my gut and handle the animal foods properly how my body would change. I also have a different outlook on exercise currently, not necessarily due to Ray, but he contributed. Although I firmly believe our physiology is built to run and throw - distance/time being situational. From Hadza (meat based) to Tarahumara (plant based) - they all run a lot. I want to find a way to incorporate that aspect while maintaining healthy hormonal balance, and I think Ray might just not be very well versed in the realm of exercise in general (although he acknowledges that elite athletes don't produce much lactic acid [high mitochondrial density]).

By old solids do you mean like mucoid plaque? If so, have you ever gone on a forum for medical students studying to become medical examiners and forensic pathologists? I did a google search on mucoid plaque and autopsies once and came across a forum of med students who were asked if they had ever come across mucoid plaque while performing autopsies. Anyhow, I firmly believe our physiology is built to dance. *jazz hands* In all seriousness, I agree that we are meant to move our bodies. If you enjoy running and feel your best doing so, I can’t imagine it being bad for you. I know people who find running to be a form of meditation for them.
 

thetaflow

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I don’t think you should feel bad if you fall into the latter group, especially given your condition. And even if you need meat now, you may not need it in the future when you’ve healed up
Yeah I haven't eaten any in a couple of months, and when I do it's broth form. I have a feeling it's a lesson for me to go through - accepting perhaps getting better, and then perhaps not "needing" it in the future. That would be ideal, but I certainly have a lot of emotional struggle with the whole idea.
Dairy is an effective bacterial promoter (per Ray), which isn’t a bad thing IMO unless a person has a serious overgrowth and weak peristalsis.
From my understanding, Ray said that it promotes enough of a bacterial growth to produce sufficient bulk for solid stool, but tends to not really feed the "bad" or pathogenic bacteria, such as say starch or fiber. I think probably yes on the overgrowth, but peristalsis is extremely fast...
Because misery loves company? I wonder who will be eaten first when the meat runs ou
Yeah those guys will have all the meat they care for... but it aint no slave food cuz climate change.
For my injury, there’s kyphoplasty—essentially, ballooning the compressed vertebra and injecting it with bone cement to restore its height—but by the time I learned about it, my fractures had already begun healing over so I was no longer a candidate for the surgery. All the specialists could offer me were narcotics, but I refused to take them and instead, just lived with the pain. I’ve come a long way—I learned how to walk again, practice dance like I did prior to fracturing and have even climbed a small mountain, but it isn’t without pain and I have my heart set on climbing a large mountain one last time. For that, I need to strengthen and straighten out my spine more so that I can carry my pack with all my gear. Currently, my pack puts too much pressure on my kyphotic spine, especially for an 8+ hour climb. My bone density continues to increase, but the compressions aren’t quick to reverse, if it’s even possible.
Jennifer, I assume you're in the US. Please check out this link: Find a Practitioner

I truly hope you consider FP - at the very least you will get *some* positive results, but also don't be surprised to surpass your greatest expectations. This system and its practitioners work absolute magic. I've been in competitive sport my entire life, and what I've seen out of this community is legit and the farthest thing from a gimmick like 99% of chiropractors/physical therapists/fitness trainers are - just temporary fixes. I only found out about FP a couple of years ago, and have yet to really take it seriously, just waiting for my gut to get on board, but it's already changed my life. Many of these guys are into RP as well. You can shoot me a msg privately about this as well, I can maybe point you in some directions.
Does your temp drop after you’ve eaten?
I'm almost 100% sure it goes up quite a bit - I feel warm, often very hot after eating lol.
You’ve likely been through the gamut of tests to check for intestinal overgrowths, huh?
Heck no. I don't trust the medical system, and they never did anything good for me my whole childhood. Perhaps there are tools I could/should utilize, but from the beginning I did a tonne of research, on top of all of my health knowledge, and decided I'm not going to bother, especially after speaking with several Drs. Technically I fully recovered as of last year and did it without their help - if only I'd known to take it easier with the severe stress.
Was it after your fast? Good thyroid function and B12 are needed to convert beta carotene to vitamin A. I
Yea I was quite skinnyfat after my fast for sure, metabolism down the drain. Rarely gave myself b12 injections, but was eating tons of papaya.
If I consume things that bother my gut like whole fruit and certain types of honey, I’ll get joint pain, popping and cracking all over.
Very interesting - I also figure it's gut related for sure.
Was it the endurance sports that drew you to LFRV?
No not at first, was mostly looking to get clearer skin. Then got attracted to the idea of using it as a "secret weapon" against my competitors. Most vegans are hobby athletes and it's extremely rare to find one who performs at a high level.
Your appetite and gut capacity must have been insane to maintain your weight on a raw diet while being an athlete?
I also did IF, and did all my training fasted lol. Honestly, it's not too hard if you utilize a blender, bananas, and dates. I did the Mike Arnstein thing with IF, juicy fruit throughout the day, and then a huge-**** salad at night - with an avo or two in there, and a blender-full of dressing. My gut capacity was absolutely insane lol.
lol How has your performance and recovery been since reintroducing animal protein?
Well I'm not training at all - just trying to heal up... I'm excited for the day I can try out what that's like. Interestingly, my recovery was fantastic on 100% raw - I could do massive volumes and not feel much soreness or fatigue at all. Fruit was really key, but something else was missing.
By old solids do you mean like mucoid plaque?
Maybe - whatever that is, I don't necessarily know if there's a correct name for it.
I did a google search on mucoid plaque and autopsies once and came across a forum of med students who were asked if they had ever come across mucoid plaque while performing autopsies.
And, what did they find? Simple fact is it exists - tons of experiences out there. I know of someone very close to me who was passing solid, smelly bowel movements every day for 32 days of her water fast.
If you enjoy running and feel your best doing so, I can’t imagine it being bad for you. I know people who find running to be a form of meditation for them.
I hate the pounding the pavement/no pain no gain/burn the calories stuff. I love getting out in nature and trails. I think it's possible with only nose breathing = not hyperventilating, as well as not pushing it all the time and having enough mitochondria to not produce lactic acid. I wish Ray would speak more of such scenarios.
 

Jennifer

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I have a feeling it's a lesson for me to go through - accepting perhaps getting better, and then perhaps not "needing" it in the future. That would be ideal, but I certainly have a lot of emotional struggle with the whole idea.

I understand. :(

From my understanding, Ray said that it promotes enough of a bacterial growth to produce sufficient bulk for solid stool, but tends to not really feed the "bad" or pathogenic bacteria, such as say starch or fiber. I think probably yes on the overgrowth, but peristalsis is extremely fast...

Yep, that’s my understanding as well, however, I don’t think it’s so much about good versus bad bacteria but the total bacterial count since he recommended broad spectrum antibiotics to me, which aren’t so selective? I took the antibiotic and my symptoms vanished.

Jennifer, I assume you're in the US. Please check out this link: Find a Practitioner

Thank you so much for sharing this info with me! I’ll check it out tonight.

I'm almost 100% sure it goes up quite a bit - I feel warm, often very hot after eating lol.

Awesome! That’s a good sign!

Heck no. I don't trust the medical system, and they never did anything good for me my whole childhood. Perhaps there are tools I could/should utilize, but from the beginning I did a tonne of research, on top of all of my health knowledge, and decided I'm not going to bother, especially after speaking with several Drs. Technically I fully recovered as of last year and did it without their help - if only I'd known to take it easier with the severe stress.

Oh, okay. I understand. When you fully recovered, was that while you were still raw and if so, did you try going back to it to heal? I ask because when I was backed into a corner and tried a third time around, I had a very different experience than I had the first two times and I’m curious if you did, as well.

No not at first, was mostly looking to get clearer skin. Then got attracted to the idea of using it as a "secret weapon" against my competitors. Most vegans are hobby athletes and it's extremely rare to find one who performs at a high level.

Gotcha.

I also did IF, and did all my training fasted lol. Honestly, it's not too hard if you utilize a blender, bananas, and dates. I did the Mike Arnstein thing with IF, juicy fruit throughout the day, and then a huge-**** salad at night - with an avo or two in there, and a blender-full of dressing. My gut capacity was absolutely insane lol.

Ah, okay. That’s good that you didn’t get strict and cut out all overt fats like so many 811ers. I recall Mike saying how he started having libido issues from going too low in fat and resolved them when he started consuming cultured young coconut meat. I didn’t use my blender much and get migraines from bananas so my staples were melons, grapes and dates so quite a bit of volume. Since you were a long-term, fruit-based raw vegan, did you ever develop sensitivities to certain fruit over time?

Interestingly, my recovery was fantastic on 100% raw - I could do massive volumes and not feel much soreness or fatigue at all.

Same here. That’s actually one of the reasons why I continued following Dr. Morse when I should have called it quits—I had hardly any back pain on all fruit. I also have hardly any back pain on all A2 dairy, but did have a lot of pain with meat.

And, what did they find? Simple fact is it exists - tons of experiences out there. I know of someone very close to me who was passing solid, smelly bowel movements every day for 32 days of her water fast.

Out of all the autopsies performed by the medical students participating in the chat, only one revealed some residue on the intestines and the student said that he was able to remove it easily with a squirt of water. I don’t think I have it saved in my notes, but I’ll try finding it again and post the link to it if I do.

One thing I’ve wondered about since first discovering Natural Hygiene and water fasting (and even the carnivore diet and its proponents’ theory that infrequent BMs are perfectly healthy because meat is almost fully absorbed) is if stool is made up of water (almost 75%), bacterial biomass (up to 50+% of dry solids), cells such as the epithelial cells of the intestinal lining which shed routinely, mucus, etc., shouldn’t we continue to have solid bowel movements even on a water fast, provided our thyroid and adrenal glands are strong enough for good peristalsis and we aren’t causing diarrhea via irritation from the water?

I hate the pounding the pavement/no pain no gain/burn the calories stuff. I love getting out in nature and trails. I think it's possible with only nose breathing = not hyperventilating, as well as not pushing it all the time and having enough mitochondria to not produce lactic acid. I wish Ray would speak more of such scenarios.

I agree! I hate the no pain no gain/burn the calorie stuff, too, and love getting out in nature and on trails. My favorite would probably be walking barefoot on a beach. There’s just something about the sand and ocean that leaves me feeling incredibly relaxed and restored.
 
OP
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I found this yummy fruit leather snack today, with only 3 ingredients: jackfruit, ginger and turmeric.
 

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Here is another Jackfruit surprise from Jennifer, soft serve ice cream in the Ninja blender. Mix one cup of frozen jackfruit with a half cup of milk and blend. It takes a little maneuvering, turning off the motor and shaking the frozen fruit around, but the texture is great! Next time I would like to try some orange zest in it, maybe even a couple teaspoons of sugar. I wonder if swapping half of the milk for orange juice would make it taste more like sorbet?
 

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