Vegetarians Look So Young

[GreekDemiGod]

Come to think about it, many of the problems with vegan and vegetarian diets come from under-eating and caloric restriction. That leads to too low body fat levels and muscle mass. This is what creates the sunken face look: too low bodyfat levels.
But chronically undereating on an omnivore diet will also lead to problems.
So eating at maintenance or even having periods of hyper-caloric eating will ensure that you get enough micronutrients not to run into problems. Plants might be less nutrient dense, but if you're eating a 3000 calories diet, does it really matter much.
On top of that, if we consider the protein-sparing effect of carbs, I can't see why 50g would not be enough for the average, non-lifter individual.

Yesterday, I listened to this podcast, and at some point, they mention about their daily carb intake being 600-700g / day!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIvfC985U8

 

[Nomane Euger]

Come to think about it, many of the problems with vegan and vegetarian diets come from under-eating and caloric restriction. That leads to too low body fat levels and muscle mass. This is what creates the sunken face look: too low bodyfat levels.
But chronically undereating on an omnivore diet will also lead to problems.
So eating at maintenance or even having periods of hyper-caloric eating will ensure that you get enough micronutrients not to run into problems. Plants might be less nutrient dense, but if you're eating a 3000 calories diet, does it really matter much.
On top of that, if we consider the protein-sparing effect of carbs, I can't see why 50g would not be enough for the average, non-lifter individual.

Yesterday, I listened to this podcast, and at some point, they mention about their daily carb intake being 600-700g / day!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIvfC985U8

hi,"We know that Ray preaches higher protein intake than the mainstream does, but even his recommendations seem low to me, especially if you're a physically active male. You want the frail physique of Peat, then eat 100-120g of protein. You want to be athletic and powerful. Then bump up that protein intake a bit more, 150-200g."you commented that in one of you last posts

 

[GreekDemiGod]

hi,"We know that Ray preaches higher protein intake than the mainstream does, but even his recommendations seem low to me, especially if you're a physically active male. You want the frail physique of Peat, then eat 100-120g of protein. You want to be athletic and powerful. Then bump up that protein intake a bit more, 150-200g."you commented that in one of you last posts

Yes, I’be changed my mind dozens of times.
It seems that individuals with a high metabolism can do fine with a bit lower protein intake and achieve good muscle mass.
@Razvan is one example

 

[Nomane Euger]

Yes, I’be changed my mind dozens of times.
It seems that individuals with a high metabolism can do fine with a bit lower protein intake and achieve good muscle mass.
@Razvan is one example

changing your mind is not problematic at all if it is the results of experiences and researchs that have enough rigor,if you make a post with the intention to influence others or to share your perspective,ensure you refine your experiments enoughs so they are rigorous,with the lowest degree of biais,rather than making sensationals claims that have very little to no basis(,talking about specific claims you made there)that can harm peoples with suboptimals healths which are more prone to act/react by fear/worrying/trust to authority,wich sensational claims can induce;It will better for others and your own health/progress.i dont doubt my self that you can maintain a good muscle mass and feel great with lower protein intake,you did not encountered razvan posts yesterday,or anyone one else claiming claiming doing great on 60 to 120 grammes of proteins a day per exemple,so like you have no proof that peoples claims on are absolute truth,so anyone claims on this forum are just claims with varying degree of coherence and credibility,if you find it credible and coherent,experiment yourself,if then your experiments prove this/these perspective(s) to be relevant, share it,no point sharing your perspective of the day,and @summoning someone else in the convo,unless you experimented long enough with it

 

[Jennifer]

So eating at maintenance or even having periods of hyper-caloric eating will ensure that you get enough micronutrients not to run into problems. Plants might be less nutrient dense, but if you're eating a 3000 calories diet, does it really matter much.

It mattered greatly for me. 3000+ calories a day wasn't enough to keep my spine from collapsing. I reintroduced animal proteins, more than doubling my protein intake, and consuming the same amount of calories, gained back 50% of my bone density (shown via DEXA scans and other bone markers), and all the muscle I had lost. Previously, while following 100% plant-based, high carb (mainly from fruit and greens), I was far exceeding the RDA for nutrients on cronometer, even more so in some nutrients than with the inclusion of animal proteins.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@Jennifer I am curious what was your average estimated protein intake during the times you were vegan.
Is bone density influenced by Calcium intake, or are there other factors at play?

 

[Jennifer]

@GreekDemiGod, I averaged 50 to 60 grams because I consumed a kilo of greens and a concentrated green juice powder daily. I believe calcium intake influences bone density, sure, as well as so many other things—vitamins A, D, K, amino acids, phosphorus, sodium/salt, fructose, calories in general, thyroid/parathyroid function, CO2, estrogen, serotonin, cortisol, digestion, absorption, utilization and elimination, gravity/weight-bearing exercises—everything affects everything so the list goes on and on. I mean, even our thoughts and the energy of those around us affect our biology. Have you ever known someone who made you so silly happy just being with them that your health improved or known someone who made you miserable and you came down with something?

Then there are the stressors that we think are virtuous, but are actually harming us. I believe one of the biggest stressors for those of us into health is overriding cravings. Some see it as a healthy form of discipline, and I did too but constantly overriding my cravings while vegan, and for years, did me in. When I let go of what I thought I should be consuming and just went with cravings, I was having liters of milk, a kilo of cheese, half a kilo of scallops or crab etc. daily and saw my health improve, not just by feeling, but even routine testing confirmed this. On paper, one would think I shouldn’t need so much protein because I’m a tiny woman and yet my body craves these protein rich foods. If a person genuinely enjoys high carb, low protein plant foods and not so much the animal proteins, they may thrive on 100% plant-based. I just know I wasn’t one of them, and I wanted to be one of them because I believed it was more ethical. I have a different view now but that’s a whole other topic.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@Jennifer I suppose heavy cravings should not be ignored. I have phases where I crave more meat and eggs, and phases where I don't. For example, 2 weeks ago, I ate steak 4 days in a row. After that, I stopped craving it to this day. Perhaps it will come back in a few weeks. I also don't crave eggs that much lately. But I had phases when I craved and enjoyed omelette every morning.
I remember as a child, I had more of a sweet tooth. Ate little protein, animal fat disgusted me. I would prefer eating cake than meat.
I used to eat cottage cheese with loads of white sugar on it at my grandma's. One of my favorite dishes. Also liked drinking milk with a lot of sugar added.

What's also interesting is that if I don't restrict fat intake, I could eat a lot of cheese and meat. I don't really enjoy the taste much, but I would still eat lots of it if left unrestricted.
So I continued eating a lot of Saturated Fats, and animal protein. All the Primal health influencers keep saying how meat and SFA makes you masculine and raises your androgens. Yet I continued to have low Testosterone eating this way.

Right now, since I've increased my focus on plant-based, I have little cravings for animal protein and/ or fats. We'll see what the future reserves.
It will be really interesting what will my Test levels be after a few months on 80% plant-based. My thyroid sure seems to be on high gear.

 

[baccheion]

@GreekDemiGod, I averaged 50 to 60 grams because I consumed a kilo of greens and a concentrated green juice powder daily. I believe calcium intake influences bone density, sure, as well as so many other things—vitamins A, D, K, amino acids, phosphorus, sodium/salt, fructose, calories in general, thyroid/parathyroid function, CO2, estrogen, serotonin, cortisol, digestion, absorption, utilization and elimination, gravity/weight-bearing exercises—everything affects everything so the list goes on and on. I mean, even our thoughts and the energy of those around us affect our biology. Have you ever known someone who made you so silly happy just being with them that your health improved or known someone who made you miserable and you came down with something?

Then there are the stressors that we think are virtuous, but are actually harming us. I believe one of the biggest stressors for those of us into health is overriding cravings. Some see it as a healthy form of discipline, and I did too but constantly overriding my cravings while vegan, and for years, did me in. When I let go of what I thought I should be consuming and just went with cravings, I was having liters of milk, a kilo of cheese, half a kilo of scallops or crab etc. daily and saw my health improve, not just by feeling, but even routine testing confirmed this. On paper, one would think I shouldn’t need so much protein because I’m a tiny woman and yet my body craves these protein rich foods. If a person genuinely enjoys high carb, low protein plant foods and not so much the animal proteins, they may thrive on 100% plant-based. I just know I wasn’t one of them, and I wanted to be one of them because I believed it was more ethical. I have a different view now but that’s a whole other topic.

Was it whole/worthwhile protein (eg, russet potatoes or soy)? When protein is lower, much more calcium may be needed in ratio with phosphorus. See: human breast milk.

The only way I'd go vegan is if I were able to get at least the RDA of protein (divided by 1.2) from russet potatoes. Essentially, famine food (12-15 lbs potatoes) and some cold-pressed green/nut juice or something.

@GreekDemiGod sunken eyes are caused by low aldosterone not being replaced by vasopressin. Copper + vitamin C (like from potatoes) are said to increase vasopressin.

 

[Jennifer]

@GreekDemiGod, I think it’s totally normal to have times when we crave certain foods and then don’t once we’ve had our fill of them, which is why I think we do ourselves a disservice when we lock ourselves in to one way of eating. I was similar to you as a child. I grew up in a French family so we didn’t shun animal fats, but the only sources I liked were eggs and dairy. I consumed a lot of sweetened cottage cheese, yogurt, pudding and ice cream. That and fruit. I grew up in an agricultural town and every summer and fall we picked fruit.

I’d say your experience shows how overly simplistic the idea of meat and saturated fat making a man masculine is, whatever is meant by masculine. I suppose the image of a man eating a greasy rack of ribs is an easier sell than one eating an ice cream cone with sprinkles but anyhow, I can imagine your thyroid is on high gear. Mine is at its best when I include plenty of carbs in my diet. Between all the carbs and NDT, I’m running so warm these days that I spent this past winter shoveling snow in a t-shirt and flip flops.

@baccheion, my protein sources were potato, greens and a green juice powder (Vitamineral Green), but I eventually dropped the potatoes when I wasn’t improving and started following Douglas Graham’s 80/10/10 diet (high carb, raw vegan).

 

[YourUniverse]

It mattered greatly for me. 3000+ calories a day wasn't enough to keep my spine from collapsing. I reintroduced animal proteins, more than doubling my protein intake, and consuming the same amount of calories, gained back 50% of my bone density (shown via DEXA scans and other bone markers), and all the muscle I had lost. Previously, while following 100% plant-based, high carb (mainly from fruit and greens), I was far exceeding the RDA for nutrients on cronometer, even more so in some nutrients than with the inclusion of animal proteins.

Hi, can I ask about your dental health during these times? Did your teeth get whiter as your bone density improved?

 

[Ritchie]

Right now, since I've increased my focus on plant-based, I have little cravings for animal protein and/ or fats. We'll see what the future reserves.
It will be really interesting what will my Test levels be after a few months on 80% plant-based. My thyroid sure seems to be on high gear.

Applying Peat Principles To Veganism: Incredible Results

So as the title implies, I have been eating a vegan/plant based diet for the past 2.5 years or so. For about 3 years before that I was following a very well adhered to Peat inspired diet of milk, cheese, fruits, fruit juice, sugars, liver, some gelatinous meat cuts, gelatin, eggs, coffee...

raypeatforum.com

 

[OccamzRazer]

Some vegans look super young, some carnivores look super young, some people who don't give a **** and eat anything they want also look super young.

Oh, and people who do sexual transmutation work tend to age in reverse, too.

There's more to health than food....

 

[Jennifer]

@YourUniverse, yes, my teeth got whiter. My dental health during the time was the best it has ever been. I also lost the dark circles and 11 between my eyes that developed while following 80/10/10. My doctor at the time had me on a high-fat, WAPF inspired diet and the majority of my calories were coming from full-fat dairy products, both raw and pasteurized, and I supplemented with a concentrated butter oil. If I remember correctly, the rest of my calories came from eggs, homemade bone broth, about 85 g of meat--scallops, crab and beef--sweet baby lettuces, tomatoes, red bell peppers and sugar snap peas--I ate two salads daily.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@Ritchie I remember that thread. Are you still doing 100% plant-based and doing fine, or perhaps thriving?

Another thought came to me how it's usually people with a thin / slim / normal weight who are drawn to vegetarianism / veganism, and in contrast the stereotypical Keto / Carnivore folks are/ were overweight gluttons. Carb metabolism VS Fat metabolism.

 

[Ritchie]

@Ritchie I remember that thread. Are you still doing 100% plant-based and doing fine, or perhaps thriving?

Another thought came to me how it's usually people with a thin / slim / normal weight who are drawn to vegetarianism / veganism, and in contrast the stereotypical Keto / Carnivore folks are/ were overweight gluttons. Carb metabolism VS Fat metabolism.

Probably very similar to you now, from the sound of it - about 85-90% plant based with the remaining 10-15% comprised of milk, cheese, oysters, some gelatinous meat. Alot of very high energy foods, like sweet fruits, sugars, honey, juice as well as starches like potatos and rice. Coffee, chocolate, macadamias, avocado, coconut oil and olive oil are staples in carrot salads and the like, I also eat other vegetables like cooked kale and mushrooms. I'm 6 foot and do quite a bit of strength training. I feel great. I would say that lowering meat consumption has definitely improved the way Peat's principles translate to metabolic and over all health, in my experience.

 

[Jennifer]

Interesting observations, @GreekDemiGod.

I've known 6 vegetarians/vegans in real life and it was split--3 thin and 3 plump. I know a few following keto and they’re all thin. They were put on the diet to control their diabetes. The only carnivores I know turned to the diet out of desperation after developing digestive issues following a 100% whole foods, plant-based diet. I can relate. The first time in my life that I developed digestive issues was while following the same diet, and the same goes for my mum. Her digestion got so bad that even liquids and low fiber foods were going right through her, and she needed rectal surgey for the hemorrhoids she developed, an incredibly painful procedure. Her thyroid function had tanked—her TSH rose to over 8–contributing the connective tissue weakness (hemorrhoids). She couldn't consume anything if she knew she had to leave the house, which exacerbated her hypoglycemia and insomnia. She did experience improvements—her life-long migraines disappeared—but we later figured out it was because of certain foods she had unknowingly been reacting to that she had eliminated from her diet when she went plant-based.

Then of course, there’s my experience. Years into 100% plant-based, and roughly 6 months prior to my spine collapsing, I split the cartilage in my chest and threw out my back while landscaping. I was in my late 20s, and at the time, I had no clue just what the injuries were. I had to sleep sitting up and kept retearing my cartilage every time I reached for something. After 6 months of this, I went to lift half a watermelon and my spine collapsed, but I didn’t know it at first. I mean, I heard and felt it, but didn’t know what it was I had just experienced. I had been through so much pain in that area of my body at that point that I couldn’t distinguish it. Days later, I felt one of my ribs sticking out and my doctor at the time thought it was just displaced so she sent me to a chiropractor to pop it back in place. Just imagine a muscular, ex (American) football player over 91 kg trying to adjust a tiny female well under 45 kg, both not knowing she had torn cartilage, or advanced osteoporosis, and only realizing after the fact. There’s a pop and a cry in agony and a "Oh, no!" We later figured out that the displaced rib was a result of my spine collapsing.

The kyphosis that developed from the 8 out of 12 compression fractures wedging caused my osteoporotic ribs to interlock, forcing them to snap against each other every time I lifted my arms above my shoulders. I couldn't take pain meds because they caused me to vomit and bust out my ribs, not that I wanted to take them anyway because I was too much of a purest. I slept lying flat for the first time in 6 months and my severely concaved spine popped out, and I had this massive lump running down my back. For over a year, I experienced charley horse-like spasms in my back that lasted for 5 minutes anytime I moved my torso just slightly. I had to relearn how to walk and was constantly falling to the floor so getting to the bathroom meant I found myself sitting in a puddle of urine daily. I think one of the most humbling moments during that time was when my grandmother gave me her adult diapers because I couldn’t make it to the bathroom at night in time to pee. I looked young as a vegan alright. 10 cm shorter, barely any hair left, in a diaper, weighing that of a toddler. I went from climbing mountains every weekend to practically a vegetable. Realistically, I’m never going to physically be Hercules but prior to the diet, I had a strong body. I don’t like posting pictures of myself that I can’t easily take down, but I think photos speak volumes. My body went from this:

To this within months:

The last two aren’t even me at my lowest weight—take another 9 kg off my frame. I’m wearing thick, fleece pants and two jackets in those photos so you can just imagine how emmaciated my body had become. Thousands of calories worth of plant matter daily tanking my thyroid, leaving me a self-consuming, catabolic skeleton. That wasn’t in the vegan brochure. I had originally gone vegan to save animals and the scariest part is it took years before things manifested enough for me to realize plant-based was killing me. I even went to the hospital when I first started having back problems and images were taken, but doctors neglected to inform me of the osteoporosis that was so advanced my bones looked transparent on my x-rays. Within a month, my spine had collapsed. I felt energized on the diet and had moments of euphoria, and as a depressed person, I thought it was a healthy sign but knowing what I know now, it was my adrenals pumping out adrenaline (think runner’s high) to compensate for my suppressed thyroid, something hard to distinguish between because adrenaline can falsely elevate temps and lower TSH.

The pain and suffering went on for years after fracturing, but within a month of my doctor putting me on the WAPF diet, the cartilage in my chest was fully healed and within roughly 2 months, I had gained back over 9 kg of muscle, along with the hair I had lost and then some. Given that and the improvement in my bone density, if I’m being honest with myself, I know 100% plant-based did me in. When I shared what had happened to me, I was told by followers of the diet that the problem was I did the diet wrong. Who in the health scene hasn’t heard that tired response before? As far as I’m concerned, the problem was not that I did the diet wrong. The problem was that I did the diet right. I didn’t cheat or jump ship before it sunk like I should have. Had I done like Ritchie and included even just a small amount of animal protein in my diet, I may have saved my spine. Mine is an extreme case, but I was part of the vegan community long enough to know I’m not such a purple unicorn. It’s been over 12 years of the fight of my life since fracturing, and I’m so close to the finish line I can practically hear the mountains welcoming me home. As a person who lived the high carb, low protein, plant-based experiment long-term and suffered from it, even if there were a chance I could extend my life by going back to that “ahem” diet, I’d rather have cheesecake. My advice—don’t let what you consume, consume you.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@Jennifer Sorry for all that. How long into the diet did the problems appear?
Surely since you were younger, you lacked the knowledge and awareness that you do now, such as keeping track of your thyroid function.
If I see things going downhill, I either reassess my diet or quit it and add other food groups(meat, milk). Changing things before the damage is done.

Yes, the Keto folks do get lean after enough time on the diet, but they start out as overweight.

I don’t think I will ever go full plant-based, from what I’ve reading, it’s not a complete nutrient diet, you have to supplement B12 and possibly others.
It seems like to make plant-based / high-fiber work, you do have to reduce or cut your meat intake significantly. The same goes true in reverse, if you eat a lot of meat, you lose some of the ability to digest plant-matter / fiber. It’s like the human body is not perfectly optimised for neither meat, nor plant intake. Imperfect design.

If by plants you mean leaves, that sounds awful. I’m thinking lots of fruits, combined with roots and tubers, some grains, and some leafy greens.

The reason I’m interesting right now in doing a high-fiber intake is that I stopped buying into the “sterile gut hypothesis”. If you think about it, Peatarians who just quit starch or restrict some foods are doing the same things the Keto / Carnivore people are doing. You’re not really fixing the root issues. Very few successful reports on the forum about fixing food intolerances/ sensitivities.
In contrast, I’ve read reports of people on high-fiber diets being able to tolerate gluten again.

 

[Sefton10]

My advice—don’t let what you consume, consume you.

?

 

[-Luke-]

When I shared what had happened to me, I was told by followers of the diet that the problem was I did the diet wrong. Who in the health scene hasn’t heard that tired response before?

You see this reaction over and over again with all different types of diets. Low carb doesn't work? Carbs aren't low enough yet. Low fat doesn't work? Fat isn't low enough yet. Fasting doesn't work? Your fasting periods aren't long enough. Raw vegan doesn't work? You need to eat even more raw food without cooking anything. They "Ray Peat approach" doesn't work? You didn't try the daily carrot salad and your PUFA intake is too high with 2.5g a day. You even see it on this forum. Some people seem to feel offended when Dr. Peat eats oatmeal for breakfast. It goes against the "Peat dogma" that never existed in the first place.

Once you become so rigid in your way of thinking, it's easier to look for such extremes, unrealistic as they may be, instead of simply admitting that your way of life doesn't work for everyone and that there's more than one way to skin the cat. At some point it becomes a dogma. I'm currently reading the book "Thinking, Fast & Slow" by Daniel Kahneman and just yesterday came across this paragraph: "You build the best possible story from the information available to you, and if it is a good story, you believe it. Paradoxically, it is easier to construct a coherent story when you know little, when there are fewer pieces to fit into the puzzle. Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance."

It’s been over 12 years of the fight of my life since fracturing, and I’m so close to the finish line I can practically hear the mountains welcoming me home.

Good to hear. I wish you all the best along the way.