• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

Whole Foods Plant Based Diet -- Peat Friendly

dsubra

New Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
4
Hi,

I've been mostly reading the forum for a while as its quite interesting to hear peats views and I'm interested in getting your perspectives on a whole foods plant based diet. It seems to fit some of the things that peat recommends or certain foods that peat recommends to balance the imbalance that exists when you eat a lot of meat products.

My goals is probably eat maybe 80-90% plant based and add any meat based products if necessary. Currently, I eat dairy, some seafood (I like shrimp but don't like oysters) and some meat (mostly chicken, I don't like beef/pork/etc.. and I don't like liver meat) so it isn't too hard more me to give up meat. No diet is perfect, I think its about balance and maybe eating things that are less bad for you, even if you can't completely avoid it.

Plant based diet is based on fruits, vegetables, tubers, whole grains, and legumes; and it excludes or minimizes meat (including chicken and fish), dairy products, and eggs, as well as highly refined foods like bleached flour, refined sugar, and oil.

Based on my understanding of what ray peat says:
1. Sugar is an important nutrient. Its pretty much a high carb diet with fruits eg oranges, we should be covered here.
2. Starches are not as desirable as sugars for optimal energy production. Peat doesn't recommend no starch diet, recommends things like potatoes. Potatoes/Sweet potatoes is quite nutrient dense and is part of the diet
3. Excess estrogen is a very bad thing. Yes, there is phytoestrogen in vegetables/legumes, but Milk has higher levels for estrogen that could be used by body. Same in eggs and meat. Although, I try to avoid soy and processed soy processed, because it not currently part of my diet. But I do eat other legumes (black beans, etc). There is also IGF-1 and hormones that naturally occurs in meat products even in grass fed, wild caught animal products. I think the estrogen in meat products would be closer to human estrogen compared to weaker phytoestrogen, although jury is still out on this.
4. Thyroid health is essential for nearly every function in the body. You can avoid goitrogen by cooking most of your vegetables, but you also lose some of the nutrients, maybe a balance of raw and cooked vegetables. The biggest dietary sources of PUFA is Oil. All oils are eliminated here is this should drastically reduce the PUFA in your diet. Although limited nuts and seeds are allowed, but I think these whole foods have protective mechanisms in themselves such as almond which has Vitamin E. Limited Nuts as garnish is suggested as they are also calorie dense.
5. Iron is potentially toxic, and dietary iron should be minimized or avoided as much as possible. There is more iron in meat than vegetables, also from what I have read, it seems like heme-iron in meat is what is more harmful. This would be greatly reduced so you don't need to drink excess amount of coffee to block excessive iron that your consuming in meat.
6. Dr. Peat believes that coffee is an important food because it is protects the liver, protects the thyroid, improves glucose metabolism, blocks iron absorption, and provides important nutrients not found in many other foods. I've read some studies that state coffee is better at blocking iron in vegetables better, so even if you're concerned about iron in spinach or something, it would help. Coffee has other benefits too and is part of the diet.
7. Adequate protein is important. It does take a bit of planning to get enough protein plants but you can get the recommended amount and also plant based diet is low is tryptophan and methionine so you don't really need the gelatin.
8. Seratonin and melatonin are harmful stress chemicals and should be minimized. Dr. Peat recommends reducing tryptophan in the diet in order to reduce seratonin production since tryptophan is the precursor to seratonin. Plant based protein is naturally lower in tryptophan so it shouldn't be too much of concern.
9. The dietary calcium to phosphate ratio should be high. Protein from plant based food are closer to what peat recommends than meats or milk.

I've been experimenting with plant based diet even since I saw Fork over knives and thinking about the whole peataterian view and some of the points seems to fit in with what peat says so I wanted to get your opinion on this. I also look forward to hearing from people who follow a whole food plant based diet in peaterian community as to how they eat to supplements any deficiencies (with other food or supplements) on plant based diet. I know you must supplement with B12.

Thanks,
Darren
 

dsubra

New Member
Thread starter
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
4
In the link they refer to lactose as a milk protein when it is actually a sugar so you might want to take the information with a grain of salt. Welcome to the forum dsubra.
Agreed, that link is outdated, I didn't have the link to studies that have this info. Thanks its an interesting forum. I'm always learning..
 

BastiFuntasty

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
225
I wonder how we can achieve a Peat friendly plant based diet with balanced calcium: phosphorus and adequate protein? What would be good sources? Since soy is crap, I was thinking of hamp or chlorella, but definitely something not to eat daily. Shrimps or oysters would still be unavoidable for copper and zinc, wouldn't it?
 

Kasper

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2013
Messages
671
Age
31
Try in cronometer 2500 gram potatoes, 500 gram mushrooms. You will get 57 gram proteins. Together with the keto acids in those foods, that may be enough protein for a day. Not sure though.

I guess you need some green leaves as well for the calcium and some estroban + coconut oil for the fat soluble vitamins.

I think you will pretty all right as it comes to macro nutrients + micro nutrients. Not sure about the calcium from green leaves. Also you will probably need to add some taurine (only in animal food sources) and vitamin B12. Do I forget things?
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,369
Welcome dsubra,

but you also lose some of the nutrients
If you consume the water they are cooked in too, you get all the minerals, though some vitamins may be altered.

Although limited nuts and seeds are allowed, but I think these whole foods have protective mechanisms in themselves such as almond which has Vitamin E.
I'm not going to try to talk you out of a few almonds now and then if you like them, but I think Peat has said that the vit-E can only partially protect against the PUFA, so probably not a net gain, and maybe not great to use a lot/regularly.

7. Adequate protein is important. It does take a bit of planning to get enough protein plants but you can get the recommended amount and also plant based diet is low is tryptophan and methionine so you don't really need the gelatin.
This bit seems difficult, though maybe possible. Peat usually recommend 80-100g protein for hypothyroid folk, probably more for euthyroid.
Peat has expressed concern about other factors in legumes other than just the phytoestrogens in soy. Concerns about protein quality, and anti-digestive chemicals.
My guess is that eating a really wide range of species would be one way to improve the odds of covering all your needs. And making sure to eat a lot.

He's also concerned about some of the other anti-digestive/anti-metabolic defensive chemicals.

but Milk has higher levels for estrogen that could be used by body.
I think Peat sees milk as generally also having enough progesterone to counteract any estrogen it contains.

Limited Nuts as garnish is suggested as they are also calorie dense.
I expect some calorie-dense food would be helpful, but I wouldn't recommend a lot of high-PUFA nuts. I think I personally would find it difficult to eat enough if I was limited to fruits and vegetables and a little legumes.

I imagine it may be possible for some people to do reasonably well with a really well-balanced vegan diet for a while, but there is a risk of some nutrients being hard to get enough of, and some people's constitutions might struggle with it more than others. If you have access to lots of good quality fresh ripe fruit, that would probably work in your favour. If your gut is strong, you may handle it better than people with weakened digestive tracts - excessive fibre is hard on some people. Some people have got into real trouble - eg Jennifer got extremely depleted and damaged trying to run on large amounts of fruit. If your metabolism is strong, and you supplement B12, you may do OK converting carotene to usable vit-A. If not, that could be an issue. I'm guessing that for most people it would be improved with at least occasional serves of eggs, liver, oysters, milk etc, assuming one is not intolerant of them. Most people don't like liver to start with. Some of us find ways of preparing it that make it delicious to us.
 

dsubra

New Member
Thread starter
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
4
Hi Tara,

Thanks a lot for your reply. I have few questions:

What about eating raw like green smoothie maybe once or twice a week? I’ve read there are some benefits to eating some vegetables raw since the enzymes are intact. Could the goitregen affect be harmful if you eat raw occasionally?

Is there any specific nutrients in eggs, milk, oyster or liver that you can’t get from another source?

Is there reason to add Coconut oil? If you’re consuming low PUFA.

With regards to certain nutrients from animal products, those seems to exists in animal because the animal converted the nutrient that was in animal. Examples such as Vitamin A, Vitamin K2, Taurine, etc.. Wouldn’t the human body just make these?

With regards to Milk, what does ray say about IGF-1?

Welcome dsubra,


If you consume the water they are cooked in too, you get all the minerals, though some vitamins may be altered.


I'm not going to try to talk you out of a few almonds now and then if you like them, but I think Peat has said that the vit-E can only partially protect against the PUFA, so probably not a net gain, and maybe not great to use a lot/regularly.


This bit seems difficult, though maybe possible. Peat usually recommend 80-100g protein for hypothyroid folk, probably more for euthyroid.
Peat has expressed concern about other factors in legumes other than just the phytoestrogens in soy. Concerns about protein quality, and anti-digestive chemicals.
My guess is that eating a really wide range of species would be one way to improve the odds of covering all your needs. And making sure to eat a lot.

He's also concerned about some of the other anti-digestive/anti-metabolic defensive chemicals.


I think Peat sees milk as generally also having enough progesterone to counteract any estrogen it contains.


I expect some calorie-dense food would be helpful, but I wouldn't recommend a lot of high-PUFA nuts. I think I personally would find it difficult to eat enough if I was limited to fruits and vegetables and a little legumes.

I imagine it may be possible for some people to do reasonably well with a really well-balanced vegan diet for a while, but there is a risk of some nutrients being hard to get enough of, and some people's constitutions might struggle with it more than others. If you have access to lots of good quality fresh ripe fruit, that would probably work in your favour. If your gut is strong, you may handle it better than people with weakened digestive tracts - excessive fibre is hard on some people. Some people have got into real trouble - eg Jennifer got extremely depleted and damaged trying to run on large amounts of fruit. If your metabolism is strong, and you supplement B12, you may do OK converting carotene to usable vit-A. If not, that could be an issue. I'm guessing that for most people it would be improved with at least occasional serves of eggs, liver, oysters, milk etc, assuming one is not intolerant of them. Most people don't like liver to start with. Some of us find ways of preparing it that make it delicious to us.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,369
I don't count as an expert, just read a bit.

What about eating raw like green smoothie maybe once or twice a week? I’ve read there are some benefits to eating some vegetables raw since the enzymes are intact. Could the goitregen affect be harmful if you eat raw occasionally?
I've not seen Peat recommend them - he usually refers to the value of well-cooked greens, possibly just the broth.

Personally, I don't know. I imagine that if you start out with a strong constitution, once or twice a week is unlikely to undermine it, and may have something going for it. I was having daily or sometimes twice daily green smoothies for a while a few years ago. In retrospect, I wonder whether I may have overdone it, and added to heavy metal burden from contaminated soil. The chlorophyll should be helpful, and the other chemicals - alkaloids etc - probably vary a bit from species to species.

Is there any specific nutrients in eggs, milk, oyster or liver that you can’t get from another source?
IIRC, eggs are a good source of vit A. Whether you can make it well enough yourself probably depends on your metabolism. Personally, I think I have lowish tolerance for carotene, and may well not convert well, and really enjoy liver now I've learned to cook it to my taste. Do you have reason to think your thyroid function is strong?

Peat has talked about the value of the calcium, lactose, and protein in milk. You can get some useful calcium from greens, but I think it takes quite a lot.

Oysters are one of the richest sources of zinc.
Liver is good for vit A, copper, and number of other nutrients. I don't have a strong understanding of copper metabolism, but it seems to be complex, and not just a matter of getting enough, but also getting the cofactors and conditions to get it into a usable (rather than unhelpful) form - and liver may already have it in the most usable form(s).

With regards to certain nutrients from animal products, those seems to exists in animal because the animal converted the nutrient that was in animal. Examples such as Vitamin A, Vitamin K2, Taurine, etc.. Wouldn’t the human body just make these?
Vit-A: as above, should be able to make it - requires good thyroid function and enough B12.
K2: You can get K1 from leafy greens, and gut bacteria probably make you some K2. If you have antibiotics or something else that knocks back bacteria, or have higher needs for some reason, supplementation may be useful.
Taurine: don't know - you might find more on this in a thread somewhere here. Quite a few people here say they have benefitted from getting more than usual of the taurine, either from high-taurine foods or from supplements.
Overall good quality protein can be hard to get enough of.

Is there reason to add Coconut oil? If you’re consuming low PUFA.
If you have a history of PUFA consumption, a small amount of coconut oil can be helpful by displacing and diluting that PUFA so it interferes less in metabolic processes. Not necessarily much - 10-15g spread across the day may be enough to make a difference. I can't see how you can avoid PUFA while eating a wholefood vegan diet that supplies the rest of your needs. Even 10g of nuts or seeds probably exceeds optimal PUFA intake. Above ground vegetables tend to have some. Maybe not a big deal if you are only eating small to moderate amounts, but if you are using them as staples you'll probably get more.

With regards to Milk, what does ray say about IGF-1? I saw this video while ago and there seems to be a lot of stuff in Milk. This guy seems unbelievable but some others are saying the same thing
There may be a thread discussing IGF-1 - not something I've learned much about yet.

Our needs seem to vary a bit, possibly depending on how our systems have got out of balance in the past. Not everyone seems to thrive on the same diet. Some of us seem to need higher nutrient density, and to be more sensitive to irritants. By all means learn about general nutrition, but there is no getting away from the value of observing how you personally respond to particular foods.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,642
Why you would want to do this? A lot of animal foods have such easily digestible nutrients that save you from all the hoops you have to jump through to make all plants work. I used to be a vegetarian, and it was just so much more work. I guess if it works better for you that's one thing but if it doesn't why make it harder?
 

Zachs

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
593
Why you would want to do this? A lot of animal foods have such easily digestible nutrients that save you from all the hoops you have to jump through to make all plants work. I used to be a vegetarian, and it was just so much more work. I guess if it works better for you that's one thing but if it doesn't why make it harder?

Maybe they don't want to eat dead animals.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
4,931
Location
Spokane, Washington
Why you would want to do this? A lot of animal foods have such easily digestible nutrients that save you from all the hoops you have to jump through to make all plants work. I used to be a vegetarian, and it was just so much more work. I guess if it works better for you that's one thing but if it doesn't why make it harder?
This. We're at the top of the food chain for a reason.
 

Vita3

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
50
Well, some people do not feel like eating animals.

When I've asked Ray about vegetarian diet he was positive about this.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,369
Well, some people do not feel like eating animals.
There's quite a big difference between vegan and lacto-ovo vegetarian, though.
 

Stilgar

Member
Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
317
I think this is an enviable pursuit, and something I think about a lot. Flexibility seems very possible, whilst maintaining excellent health.

The one thing I am glad I got away from was avoiding foods just because they weren't vegan. I prefer the kindness diet - using rational and critical approaches to food choices that ultimately seek the most compassionate outcome (for humans, too). To neglect our own nature - by choosing veganism/vegetarianism over good health, makes no sense. No animal does that. But, if health is maintained, and you can do both, or at least make kinder choices, why not? Honesty about the shortfalls of a vegetarian/vegan diet, and not being ashamed to admit it, are key to how it can evolve as a realistic philosophy to live by.

I would say the problem is reaching a good level of protein intake, vitamin A and calcium. Eggshell would solve the latter, if you could accept eating eggs. I often feel like something like eating fish can be much more compassionate than the milk industry. A quick (ish) death versus the needs-not-be-explained ethical status of using a cow for her milk year on year. That isn't to say it can't be done (google ahimsa milk in the UK), but it is hard to imagine it becoming widespread.

Raising your own chickens is a good idea. Feed them a heavily saturated diet, or at least bugs and worms and things. Hard to question the ethics of eating eggs in that situation, if you care for them dearly.

What about meal worms for yourself? Are meal worms Peaty? Food of the future, so they say. Or at least for chickens.

I also think that sunlight exposure and/or living at altitude would probably make up for most of the shortfalls of a plant based diet. Hit the big stressors first.

I imagine myself trying strategies to this effect in the future. But if you aren't healthy, get healthy first. You are no use to any animal, and are no good example to anyone, otherwise.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2016
Messages
175
I think this is an enviable pursuit, and something I think about a lot. Flexibility seems very possible, whilst maintaining excellent health.

The one thing I am glad I got away from was avoiding foods just because they weren't vegan. I prefer the kindness diet - using rational and critical approaches to food choices that ultimately seek the most compassionate outcome (for humans, too). To neglect our own nature - by choosing veganism/vegetarianism over good health, makes no sense. No animal does that. But, if health is maintained, and you can do both, or at least make kinder choices, why not? Honesty about the shortfalls of a vegetarian/vegan diet, and not being ashamed to admit it, are key to how it can evolve as a realistic philosophy to live by.

I would say the problem is reaching a good level of protein intake, vitamin A and calcium. Eggshell would solve the latter, if you could accept eating eggs. I often feel like something like eating fish can be much more compassionate than the milk industry. A quick (ish) death versus the needs-not-be-explained ethical status of using a cow for her milk year on year. That isn't to say it can't be done (google ahimsa milk in the UK), but it is hard to imagine it becoming widespread.

Raising your own chickens is a good idea. Feed them a heavily saturated diet, or at least bugs and worms and things. Hard to question the ethics of eating eggs in that situation, if you care for them dearly.

What about meal worms for yourself? Are meal worms Peaty? Food of the future, so they say. Or at least for chickens.

I also think that sunlight exposure and/or living at altitude would probably make up for most of the shortfalls of a plant based diet. Hit the big stressors first.

I imagine myself trying strategies to this effect in the future. But if you aren't healthy, get healthy first. You are no use to any animal, and are no good example to anyone, otherwise.
Me three Stilgar! :goodpost
 

Travis

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
3,189
This. We're at the top of the food chain for a reason.

Only because of technology.

Try fighting with a lion over a dead hyena. We make for shitty carnivores without tools.
 

Similar threads

Top