Reversing Autoimmune Disease With Vegan Diet

Discussion in 'Diet' started by jayegray, May 24, 2018.

  1. jayegray

    jayegray Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    214
    Gender:
    Male
    There is a doctor claiming she reversed her own autoimmune disease (lupus) by eating a vegan diet. She also claims to continually completely reverse autoimmune disease in many other people as well.

    Her name is Dr Brooke Goldner, I don’t think she has been mentioned on here before.

    If this is true, which I believe she is genuine in her claims, then I would like this to be explained from a Peat perspective.

    I’ve read her book and watched a few of her videos. The diet essentially focuses on raw fruits and vegetables, seeds, etc. also a big serving of flax seed oil for omega 3’s. generally low in protein and this obviously brings about a reduction in inflammatory aminos acids.

    There are a lot of vegan/plant based doctors talking about the theory of a vegan diet and it’s health benefits but when there is a consistent repeatable result then it can’t be ignored.
     
  2. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,288
    Gender:
    Male
    My opinion is that the majority of people who move from a SAD to a diet that is based around actual whole foods and elimination of omega-6 polyunsaturated fats found in most vegetable oils will see improvements. Pretty much every diet schema covers this, from peat to keto to vegan. I think every diet fails when it becomes too restrictive and doesn't encompass a broad enough range of different foods, peat dieting including. I think the majority of people who solely consume milk + meat + oj don't succeed on a Peatarian diet. I think the reason why Dr. Brooke Goldner diet works is because it eliminated the horrible (vegetable oil) and introduces a variety of good food (fruits and vegetables).

    In my opinion, I think the greatest success in health comes when there is a consumption of lots of different types of food. After all, if you think from an evolutionary standpoint, we would of eaten just about anything that was edible to survive, and so then we can reason that eating everything and anything that we know to be ok and have some health benefits and not solely be terrible for you (aka just about any whole food from an animal or plant) will provide a broad array of different micronutrients for the human body. How I view it is, eat a little bit of lots of different things. My health was the worst when I was the most restrictive, and has greatly improved since eating lots of different types of vegetables, fruits, starches, legumes, meats, and fats (olive and coconut). My lunch/dinner is usually a giant bowl of 6-7 different vegetables stir fried (onions, mushrooms, peppers, broccoli, spinach, okra, garlic, salt, pepper) mixed with some rice and beans and meat. Cook the rice and veggies and meat in olive oil and I feel amazing after a meal.

    I think vegans have some credibility in the sense that the modern diet overconsumes animal products and under consumes fruits, vegetables, and legumes. A solely milk + meat diet can't be good for long term health. However, I think they go overboard with it. We clearly evolved eating meat and it should play a role in the human diet, however the extent to which it plays a role in our modern diet is probably over emphasized.

    tl;dr eliminate junk food, eat a little bit of everything else, forget about all these nitpicky hardfast diet rules, enjoy life again.
     
  3. Terma

    Terma Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    937
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry but Ray Peat diet does not address autoimmune diseases in an explicit way. There might be some hormonal effect but I can't comment.

    The first thing I would invoke is this study @haidut posted, which is quite good: Gut Bacteria May Cause ALL Autoimmune Conditions; Antibiotics Can Cure
    Vegan diets have particular positive effects on the gut microbiome.

    A second effect is that tryptophan restriction modulates the adaptive immune system (T-cells) in a way that doesn't appear totally predictable to me from current knowledge. Adaptive immune activation is driven and limited by amino acid availability with particular emphasis on Trp and the kynurenine pathway, where both Trp and Kyn have different effects on T-cell proliferation.

    A third possible effect might be methionine restriction. However I don't have enough knowledge to say how that affects the innate or adaptive immune systems. It definitely affects the liver, which is highly tied to macrophage behavior, which in turn affects T-cells. I can't say anything with precision.
     
  4. Tenacity

    Tenacity Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    756
    Gender:
    Male
    There are similar claims of therapy of autoimmune conditions in people who eat an all meat diet, too.
     
  5. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    7,155
    There are similar claims (a LOT of them) for keto diets.

    I think the keys are:
    1. low methionine, low cysteine
    2. low iron
    3. low endotoxin load
    4. plenty of carbohydrates, good quality protein
    5. low PUFAs, as low as possible


    Those to me are the Big 5 = they probably account for the majority of the "wins" for people with autoimmune disease.

    I don't think Peat believes that autoimmune diseases are "real". They are not the "body turning on itself". They are a result of a lot of low energy cells committing suicide and the detritus is cleaned up by the immune system. Cytokines such as IGF-b and IL-6 and prostaglandin E2 come down when you get rid of the endotoxins. He's spoken highly of this type of a view of the immune system, and in 30 years from now it will become mainstream.

    There is no reason why a Vegan or other vegetarian diet won't work, as Peat has told someone here. But it is harder to do.
     
  6. Sobieski

    Sobieski Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2017
    Messages:
    406
    Gender:
    Male
    Great Post.
     
  7. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,973
    There is a starch version of this by Jill Harrington the lupus recovery diet:

    The Lupus Recovery Diet

    There is no point of talking about it here because there are so many things about it that are not Peaty. My a peat vegan is possible post has an inaccurate title. There’s no such thing as a peat vegan. To try to conflate the two is like trying to say that there is such a thing as a low fat keto diet. It doesn’t make sense. Peat drinks upwards of a gallon of milk every day and eats seafood and oxtail weekly and liver. But you will then say ok that’s fine but explain the success of the vegan diet from a peat perspective. No. You can’t. That’s not possible. The success of that person contradicts the peat perspective. In other words peat is wrong in that persons case. Also the term vegan is meaningless in regards to diet. It’s a policitial term. Whenever someone says vegan diet they must be as specific as possible as to what the persons diet is in detail.
     
  8. LukeL

    LukeL Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    212
    Gender:
    Male
     
  9. chrismturner89

    chrismturner89 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    What would you consider quality proteins ?
     
  10. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    +1 @ecstatichamster does a fantastic job in this explanation.
     
  11. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    I think there is a lot of truth in this post.
     
  12. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,973
    She’s eating flaxseeds daily. And other seeds. That’s not low pufa. And anti thyroid vegetables.

    What? Where’s the “good quality” Peaty protein in her diet? Peat is pro animal protein with his lack of animal protein quote.

    Not true from a Peat pov. All that fiber.

    You’re trying to give credit to a Peat pov while massively contradicting what is Peat. If this person had success with this then the answer is it’s not a Peaty diet therefore not a Peaty success. I find it so strange that people misrepresent what Peats actual views are.
     
  13. Terma

    Terma Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    937
    Gender:
    Male
    You might not care that much about my opinion but I agree with WPUFAs on this post. @hamster (I loved hamsters) wrote the post well but the RP stance on this is mostly wishful thinking. It might or might not pan out in the future but it's not very useful as a tactic today.
     
  14. Terma

    Terma Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    937
    Gender:
    Male
    I shouldn't leave it at that. I mean that quite a few people with serious autoimmune diseases have tried those general suggestions and come out with far less than a "win". They would be annoyed to hear that. There's a lot of serious research going on around the specifics of the immune cells and they are infinitely more of value to those patients right now (ask them) than some general theory that the immune system is clearing out debris.

    That said, obviously the suggestions with links being proven in new articles such as the one haidut posted, meaning possible benefit from antibiotics and gut modulation in general, have value. But that's different than RP's main stance on immunity.

    [However a ton of patients have tried antibiotics and gotten no results; already discussed on haidut's thread]
     
  15. Ella

    Ella Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    646
    Remember, flaxseed oil and other omega 3's depress immune function. This is the reason they are used in transplant procedures. This is the reason, practitioners love to use them. Peat favours progesterone which is under investigation for transplant procedures. Obviously, Peat is going to reject
     
  16. Ella

    Ella Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    646
    Remember, flaxseed oil and other omega 3's depress immune function. This is the reason these oils are used in transplant procedures - to stop rejection of a foreign organ/tissue. This is the reason, practitioners love to use them. If inflammation is at the root of all disease conditions, then omega 3's are going to do the job beautifully. This is what we see in the Alzheimer's research and why there is an resurgent in favouring omega 3s. Peat on the other hand, views PUFAs as the cause for inflammatory conditions. He favours progesterone which is under investigation for transplant procedures. So it seems omega 3s and progesterone work in the same direction. Peat would have weighed up the benefits to risks and concluded, like all of us here (maybe not all, if they have understood Peat's work); progesterone offers benefits far more advanced than PUFAs and omega 3s oils offer far more deleterious risks than progesterone.

    True transitioning from a SAD diet to whole foods, eliminates the major causes of inflammation. Anything that sits on a shelf is a vehicle for many deleterious molecules including bacterial and fungal spores and metabolites. So it makes sense fruit picked from a tree and vegetables pulled from the soil are going to have beneficial inputs without all those deleterious ones you get from packaged and processed foods.

    One beneficial input which is rarely discussed is the microRNA which comes from fruits and vegetables. microRNAs are used in plant biotechnology; turning genes on and off. This is a whole other layer which needs to be considered in understanding why plants are health promoting. Peat says there is no reason you can't be healthy on a Vegan diet if you do it intelligently, however, many people arrive here far from optimal digestive health and metabolism.
     
  17. lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    @Westside PUFAs aren’t you experimenting with a low fat diet and some fasting? How is it going? We do not see you around these parts lately :): I enjoy seeing you respond.

    In a separate question, I think @ecstatichamster was giving some good thoughts about overcoming autoimmune illnesses. I am not knowledgeable enough to say whether Peat would disagree with hamster’s advice or not. Do you know if Peat would disagree? I see Peat, as you have pointed out so clearly many times, often answers on a spectrum as concerns diet, but seems very clear about progesterone like @Ella highlighted below as well as some of his other fundamentals.
     
  18. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    7,155
    Cheese, seafood, collagen, some muscle meat.
     
  19. Ritchie

    Ritchie Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2015
    Messages:
    269
    Gender:
    Male
    Lol you talk about Peat as if he is some diet guru/authoritarian. I think you're missing the whole point. Peat is about AVOIDING dogmatism and working out what is rational and logical based on the information at hand, and this often takes time and evolves with new information and research/study/evidence and experience. His changing of his position on mushrooms is a perfect example: used to be against them for some reasons he believed at the time to be rationale. Was presented with new research and knowledge and realised that cooking and preparation alleviates these concerns, thereby allowing for the many benefits of mushrooms when consumed, hence rationally added them into his diet and spoke about it. This is the opposite of dogmatism and if Peat were able to live for another 100 years how much more do you think his perspective would evolve? You are trying to plant a flag in the ground of what is "Peaty" and say it must remain their dogmatically forever. This goes against everything Peat is about and my guess is that he'd shudder at the thought.
     
  20. benaoao

    benaoao Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Messages:
    368
    I eat a vegan diet.... 6 days a week. Like blue zones people do (and Peat?) eating weekly big bad red meat om the bone, and organ (organic, grass fed though) is what feels best for me. Some weeks I even add a day of wild caught fish or shellfish.

    The only supplement needed for me is zinc. My hair, nails, skin everything has gone back 10 years like I’m a teenager again. Growing like a weed... and that’s on a PCT, after 2 years of believing in TRT. I don’t care about super duper low PUFAs. Just keep them low enough, I like nuts and seeds.

    To whoever posted above about keto diets promising the same good as vegan or peaty, that’s highly debatable. I’ve been there, seen their arguments, there’s so much nonsense and misunderstanding of the liver and thyroid function among keto fanatics. I don’t even know where to begin with.

    I wouldn’t feed my kids a vegan diet though. Meat grows the body well. Not sure about dairy, this industry is foul imo.
     
Loading...