Metabolic Advantage / Fat Free / Foods / Athlete

[tca300]

@superhuman My food is and has been basically the same for a long time. 16-17 cups of skim milk, 700 or so calories from fruit, or juice, coffee, gelatin, mushrooms, a little bit of liver, and a small amount of hydrogenated coconut oil and or MCT oil.
I guess Im unique because after drinking 5+ cups of milk/juice/coffee Im not hungry and feel very satisfied.
I need lots of liquid because of how hot I am.
When My wife was in the hospital for several weeks about a year ago, I lived off fruit and cheese, and I needed a gallon or more of water to satisfy my thirst.

 

[EIRE24]

Lol here comes the starch cult. Say you dont personally like starch and it offends them. Kinda strange.
I think the mice ate less as a response to unappetizing food. I do the same.

Who said we were offended? I eat both starch and sugar, it works for me in my context. What's the problem?

 

[Tenacity]

@superhuman My food is and has been basically the same for a long time. 16-17 cups of skim milk, 700 or so calories from fruit, or juice, coffee, gelatin, mushrooms, a little bit of liver, and a small amount of hydrogenated coconut oil and or MCT oil.
I guess Im unique because after drinking 5+ cups of milk/juice/coffee Im not hungry and feel very satisfied.
I need lots of liquid because of how hot I am.
When My wife was in the hospital for several weeks about a year ago, I lived off fruit and cheese, and I needed a gallon or more of water to satisfy my thirst.

Aren't you urinating all of the time? I never try and consume more than 4L of fluid for fear of needing the john all day long...

 

[theLaw]

It has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating:

Many have issues on a low fat with/without starch.................which might be explained by gut bacteria.

For those who have issues with starch or low fat, it might be prudent to try high-sat-fat (ice cream) for a short time while the gut bacteria that feeds on starch dies off. This could also be expedited using large doses (4T) of activated charcoal.

The reason that I mention this is that gut bacteria is not to be underestimated, and can make you feel like hammered-sh*t in the short term.

The way that members here generally react to a low fat starch-free diet just doesn't seem to jive with how Ray Peat presents the diet. I would assume that if it were so difficult, then Peat would give some further suggestions on how to deal with these issues.

The gut bacteria would explain why some people can easily change their diet overnight, while other struggle for months or years to feel normal.

Cheers!

 

[tca300]

@EIRE24 I wasn't referring to you specifically.
Practically everytime someone says they don't like starch on this forum, people seem to get offended and take it personal. I really don't care what anybody eats, but its very obvious people get offended, when they make silly arguments akin to, starch tastes great! You just gotta add this and add that etc etc... I think many here would feel much more at home on a mcdougall type forum. Irregardless of what some say, starch can and does cause serious problems for certain people, and maybe you could argue the same for fruit, but at the end of the day, this forum is supposedly for trying to fix issues through Ray Peats Ideas, and when everyone from different diet prefferences comes in and makes their own personal arguments on a forum meant for specific ideas and then turns it into a melting pot that ends up not being productive, just confusing for newcomers who dont know what Ray reccomends. Just as trade schools are specific to a trade. In any case, it's mostly irritating to me nowadays and I see me taking my leave permanently now. I get a lot of questions on here, but ultimately the answers can be found by studying Ray's work in depth, and self experimentation, so my help isn't really needed anyways.
In regards to context, Ray will reccomended fruit over starch 100% of the time when an individual has a choice between the two.
Enjoy the forum everyone! I hope the best for all of you!

 

[Braveheart]

@EIRE24 I wasn't referring to you specifically.
Practically everytime someone says they don't like starch on this forum, people seem to get offended and take it personal. I really don't care what anybody eats, but its very obvious people get offended, when they make silly arguments akin to, starch tastes great! You just gotta add this and add that etc etc... I think many here would feel much more at home on a mcdougall type forum. Irregardless of what some say, starch can and does cause serious problems for certain people, and maybe you could argue the same for fruit, but at the end of the day, this forum is supposedly for trying to fix issues through Ray Peats Ideas, and when everyone from different diet prefferences comes in and makes their own personal arguments on a forum meant for specific ideas and then turns it into a melting pot that ends up not being productive, just confusing for newcomers who dont know what Ray reccomends. Just as trade schools are specific to a trade. In any case, it's mostly irritating to me nowadays and I see me taking my leave permanently now. I get a lot of questions on here, but ultimately the answers can be found by studying Ray's work in depth, and self experimentation, so my help isn't really needed anyways.
In regards to context, Ray will reccomended fruit over starch 100% of the time when an individual has a choice between the two.
Enjoy the forum everyone! I hope the best for all of you!

Your input will be missed here....best to you

 

[superhuman]

@tca300 no no dont go. That is lovely that you need all that liquid. Do you think i was a combination of the long time of low pufa and low fat that did it or did also thyroid supplement also play a big factor? i have never managed to be able to use thyroid to make a change. Used all the difference brands and protocols as well

 

[superhuman]

@theLaw sure but i dont have any problems with eating low fat/no fat. So just read the post and you see what im asking about

 

[Wagner83]

@tca300 You do not get my point, I'm not pro starch or against it, that's the kind of debate or discussion that is irrelevant to me. The thing is people need to experiment and make their own decisions, I personnally think starch can be a good source of carbs depending on how we react to it, I experimented with no starch and full fruit juices and sucrose and ended up with a pretty serious issue. So being cautious is a good thing when it comes to diet, the OP did not mention having problems with starch other than saying it tastes like paper.

 

[superhuman]

@max219 thanx a ton for your great input. No skim milk just yogurt ? i cant get fat free yogurt here.

@Tenacity hmm interesting and thanx for sure. I still dont concider 40 grams of fat a diet a fat free/low fat diet tho Im more talking about max 10 gram fat a day
Also when fat is lower and sugar higher that also increase co2 and the burning of sugar but also the burning of fat at rest which will be the same or higher then if you ate more fat. That means the fat needs to come from inside rather then the diet

 

[EIRE24]

@tca300 You do not get my point, I'm not pro starch or against it, that's the kind of debate or discussion that is irrelevant to me. The thing is people need to experiment and make their own decisions, I personnally think starch can be a good source of carbs depending on how we react to it, I experimented with no starch and full fruit juices and sucrose and ended up with a pretty serious issue. So being cautious is a good thing when it comes to diet, the OP did not mention having problems with starch other than saying it tastes like paper.

This is my point exactly as well. What were the serious conditions you ran into?

 

[Wagner83]

This is my point exactly as well. What were the serious conditions you ran into?

I started getting pain the middle of the back, it started low intensity, after meals, and increased pretty quickly (in a few days) to being very scary and lasting for hours, it radiated to the top of the head, the right arm and even weird stuff were felt in the chest. I never experienced this kind of pain before, no real way to tell where it was exactly located, but it came from inside the torso and middle of the back. For the record a female member reported acute pancreatitis from being on a fruit only diet, not sure what was up with me but stopping sucrose , fruit juices and milk for a couple of weeks along with simple starchy meals got rid of the issue.

 

[EIRE24]

I started getting pain the middle of the back, it started low intensity, after meals, and increased pretty quickly (in a few days) to being very scary and lasting for hours, it radiated to the top of the head, the right arm and even weird stuff were felt in the chest. I never experienced this kind of pain before, no real way to tell where it was exactly located, but it came from inside the torso and middle of the back. For the record a female member reported acute pancreatitis from being on a fruit only diet, not sure what was up with me but stopping sucrose , fruit juices and milk for a couple of weeks along with simple starchy meals got rid of the issue.

Similar thing happened to me actually and when I added back in starch it ceased. Strange and never found out what exactly it was making me feel ill

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw sure but i dont have any problems with eating low fat/no fat. So just read the post and you see what im asking about

If i use fat free bread so white bread etc that has no oils or whole wheat that contains fat i can put jam,honey or sugar on it and it tastes wonderful. That also tend to pound on calories really fast since its not super satisfying.

Sounds like the starch still doesn't agree with you...........hence my comments. Perhaps this is caused by the belly-inflammation that VOS has mentioned in his posts as a way to gauge digestive health.

To your overall question, I think that Peat suggests fat intake around 20-33% of calories. Also, there is an old thread by Haidut where he compares several large studies that all come to the same conclusion of moderate fat intake (1/3 of calories) long-term.

My understanding is that low-fat is more for healing in the short term. Cheers!

 

[max219]

@superhuman - I don't really like drinking a lot of liquids, and I use yogurt as my main protein source, so it's a lot better for me to eat than drink it. I also add salt, honey, gelatin, bananas to my greek yogurt to make it more like a meal than just drinking milk all day
Luckily here I have access to a surplus of nonfat greek yogurt, not only plain but endless flavored smaller yogurts I can take on the go with me.

 

[superhuman]

@theLaw I dont really think you understand what i am saying. I have NO problem with starch, digesting it or anything. If i want to eat it for the taste, the only way is to eat white bread made with no fat/oil and have jam,honey or other sweet things on. Then it tastes wonderful but i tend to eat a ton because its not really filling so the calories get super high very fast and thats also why i ask about the metabolic advantage of fat free diets. If there are any and if so how much and peoples experience with it.

Then you have not listened or heard much what RP is talking about and it is also context dependent in terms of fat intake and all that.

 

[superhuman]

@max219 get you. I love cottage cheese but the fat free cottage cheese they sell here is so insanely expensive. Yogurt are a little cheaper but still compared to skimmed milk its way more expensive and also there are alot of ingredients and stuff in the yogurt. Would be nice if they just had some plain fat free greek yogurt for example.

 

[theLaw]

@theLaw I dont really think you understand what i am saying. I have NO problem with starch, digesting it or anything. If i want to eat it for the taste, the only way is to eat white bread made with no fat/oil and have jam,honey or other sweet things on. Then it tastes wonderful but i tend to eat a ton because its not really filling so the calories get super high very fast and thats also why i ask about the metabolic advantage of fat free diets. If there are any and if so how much and peoples experience with it.

Then you have not listened or heard much what RP is talking about and it is also context dependent in terms of fat intake and all that.

I appreciate that you are looking for an argument, but I would rather spend my time more productively elsewhere.

Best of luck to you!

 

[superhuman]

@theLaw i dont, its you that are looking for an argument for something that is not there.

 

[tca300]

Your input will be missed here....best to you

Sorry, I was having a rough day when I said that. I've threatened to leave many times before, but am all talk . Many post life saving information here, and thats too valuable to disassociate myself from.