Implementing Low-fat Diet And Needing Advice

[DanielleB]

I suppose no, it is not undisputed fact. You can lose lean body mass (blood, bone, visceral organ tissue) by not eating enough protein even at maintenance calories so I would think there's a possibility to body recompose your body by such means. I guess the part I have trouble with is the mechanism by which bodyfat would be mobilized for energy utilization if not by a catabolic energy system (one that utilizes cortisol and adrenaline).

You're correct, muscles burn fat at rest. I believe this is aerobic metabolism. Anaerobic metabolism requires glucose for fuel.

I suppose I need to be careful to not speak in absolutes when I myself am not 100% certain of an outcome, I apologize. If anyone can share their experience of losing bodyfat while keeping lean mass in maintenance calories on a very low fat diet I'd like to hear it. I'd wonder how stressful it felt, if not much then I guess there's an unidentified mechanism helping the body to utilize fat stores that doesn't operate on stress. In all my experimentation on myself I never once was able to stick to an extremely lowfat diet even at maintenance it caused me too much stress (things I felt when on a large calorie deficit) and I experienced edema indicating cortisol rise and poor sleep and anxiety indicating adrenaline rise.

My 2 cents but again I could definitely be wrong! Thanks for helping me amend my statements.

I believe that Cyclops is really on to something in asserting that in a VLF diet, the body will switch to using the accumulated bodyfat to burn since it isn't receiving any exogenous fats. You continue to assert that one can ONLY lose fat while in a caloric defecit but I think this premise is where a lot people confine themselves in boxes with thinking this is the ONLY way to lose weight. From what I have seen here, if people eat thyroid-friendly foods, eat small meals often, and don't eat in a caloric deficit, then they will experience all-around health which supports sustained weight loss. Where areas, calorie restriction suppresses thyroid and any weight you may lose in calorie restriction is often gained back quickly when the diet is stopped...no thanks, not my cup of tea.

You said you would appreciate hearing or reading about members that accomplished weight loss at maintenance calories so you should look up the forum member "Zachs" and his post on PUFA depletion in 30 days. He talks about how he implemented a very low fat/ zero fat diet and not only did he experience superb metabolism during the whole experiment, he was eating at above maintenance calories around 4,000-5,000 or more, I believe, and experiencing drastic weight loss. I believe he mentions he lost over 40lbs in 6 months with this diet and eating over maintenance calories. He shares some interesting theories as to why he was still able to shed fat and build lean muscle while eating like this, so his story is a perfect example that one can eat in caloric excess on VLF and STILL lose fat while maintaining lean muscle mass. Of course, a person's general health has to be taken into consideration and I'm sure other factors come into play here but he gives a detailed account of his experiment and results.

 

[Jon]

Helpful info @Jon One comment though: that Katch-McArdle BMR calculator says I only need 1850 a day. Most people round these parts would say that's alarmingly low.

Glad you think so :)

And I tend to trust the formula as it's always been quite accurate for myself and the people I have suggested it to at some very different bodyfat percentages and activity levels but you also must realize to a point it's an arbitrary figure because not everyone will fit the formula seamlessly. I would also caution that unless you've been dexa scanned recently or own calipers and know how to use them well to measure your body fat percentage then you're data input might be skewed.

My current TDEE is around 2800cals; height: 5'6", weight: 146lbs, bf%: 17-18% and am very active (weight training 4-5 days a week and a job where I walk and lift things all day). My BMR is 1600cals so that should tell you how much of a difference weekly activity makes from a combination of Exercise and NEAT.

If you were accurate and totally honest about your activity level then I would say if you are still unsure, you could put it to the test and eat at that calorie level for 2 weeks and see what happens. Losing Weight: too low, Gaining Weight: too high, Staying The Same (+\-1lb): then probably close to maintenance.

I'd have to think you're relatively petite and for a TDEE like that?

 

[Jon]

I believe that Cyclops is really on to something in asserting that in a VLF diet, the body will switch to using the accumulated bodyfat to burn since it isn't receiving any exogenous fats. You continue to assert that one can ONLY lose fat while in a caloric defecit but I think this premise is where a lot people confine themselves in boxes with thinking this is the ONLY way to lose weight. From what I have seen here, if people eat thyroid-friendly foods, eat small meals often, and don't eat in a caloric deficit, then they will experience all-around health which supports sustained weight loss. Where areas, calorie restriction suppresses thyroid and any weight you may lose in calorie restriction is often gained back quickly when the diet is stopped...no thanks, not my cup of tea.

You said you would appreciate hearing or reading about members that accomplished weight loss at maintenance calories so you should look up the forum member "Zachs" and his post on PUFA depletion in 30 days. He talks about how he implemented a very low fat/ zero fat diet and not only did he experience superb metabolism during the whole experiment, he was eating at above maintenance calories around 4,000-5,000 or more, I believe, and experiencing drastic weight loss. I believe he mentions he lost over 40lbs in 6 months with this diet and eating over maintenance calories. He shares some interesting theories as to why he was still able to shed fat and build lean muscle while eating like this, so his story is a perfect example that one can eat in caloric excess on VLF and STILL lose fat while maintaining lean muscle mass. Of course, a person's general health has to be taken into consideration and I'm sure other factors come into play here but he gives a detailed account of his experiment and results.

I have talked to Zachs on the Ray Peat forum members created who were banned from this one. I picked his brain about his journey and the ins and outs. And I still believe it's a calorie deficit that creates fat loss as Zachs HAD to raise his calories as his metabolism improved. This is indicative of a calorie deficit he encountered, no? Why else would he HAVE to raise his calories? The stress one feels from not eating enough (deficit) is the catabolism of tissues beginning due to stress hormones helping to mobilize fat stores for energy utilization. Believe me I would be all for it if I thought there was a way to lose body fat without a calorie deficit and the stress that follows but I don't due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be any explaination as to what the mechanism is that catabolizes the fat stores sans stress pathway. Albert Lheninger, a highly respected biochemist in this community had the laws of thermodynamics at his core teachings for energy transfer. If thermodynamics is true, and a man as brilliant as he found truth in it, then I'm gonna have to say whether or not a vlf diet works for loosing fat, I still believe the mechanisms by which fat is lost is via stress from a metabolism being increase through hormone optimization but not being fed adequately (for maintenance) once the metabolism is raised and so fat loss ensues. A small calorie deficit doesn't create drastic hormonal changes and people who have more fat to lose (40lbs+) tend to increase their testosterone during the act of fat loss as aromatase activity decreases and so they feel "better" as if not in a calorie deficit but they are still in fact in one. This also tends not to effect people with more weight to lose as stressfully as someone with less because their leptin production (via large fat stores) is very high and though they are losing weight they have plenty of leptin still being made so they don't get hungry as easily as someone with less fat to lose since their hormonal status is not shifting into the negative as easily. If someone else has a better explanation then I welcome it, I'm not trying to create waves, just trying to figure out the truth and help people avoid a possibly bad experience by undertaking a protocol that could make them worse if they don't understand how it's actually working.

 

[Jon]

@DanielleB and also I forgot to mention above that Zachs could no longer eat vlf after his initial runs with it. It caused him too much stress and he actually eats a very conventional diet now for the most part as he felt that his body did better on more fats and he is actually the one who influenced me to get in a small serving of pork tenderloin everyday as it's thiamin and niacin content are extremely high and it's pufa content is lower than chicken. He also doesn't like coffee lol

 

[DanielleB]

I have talked to Zachs on the Ray Peat forum members created who were banned from this one. I picked his brain about his journey and the ins and outs. And I still believe it's a calorie deficit that creates fat loss as Zachs HAD to raise his calories as his metabolism improved. This is indicative of a calorie deficit he encountered, no? Why else would he HAVE to raise his calories? The stress one feels from not eating enough (deficit) is the catabolism of tissues beginning due to stress hormones helping to mobilize fat stores for energy utilization. Believe me I would be all for it if I thought there was a way to lose body fat without a calorie deficit and the stress that follows but I don't due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be any explaination as to what the mechanism is that catabolizes the fat stores sans stress pathway. Albert Lheninger, a highly respected biochemist in this community had the laws of thermodynamics at his core teachings for energy transfer. If thermodynamics is true, and a man as brilliant as he found truth in it, then I'm gonna have to say whether or not a vlf diet works for loosing fat, I still believe the mechanisms by which fat is lost is via stress from a metabolism being increase through hormone optimization but not being fed adequately (for maintenance) once the metabolism is raised and so fat loss ensues. A small calorie deficit doesn't create drastic hormonal changes and people who have more fat to lose (40lbs+) tend to increase there testosterone during the act of fat loss as aromatase activity decreases and so they feel "better" as if not in a calorie deficit but they are still in fact in one. This also tends not to effect people with more weight to lose as stressfully as someone with less because their leptin production (via large fat stores) is very high and though they are losing weight they have plenty of leptin still being made so they don't get hungry as easily as someone with less fat to lose since their hormonal status is not shifting into the negative as easily. If someone else has a better explanation then I welcome it, I'm not trying to create waves, just trying to figure out the truth and help people avoid a possibly bad experience by undertaking a protocol that could make them worse if they don't understand how it's actually working.

I think we are on the same page but just saying the same thing in a different way lol. I was just mentioning that Zachs had implemented the VLF mainly to lose weight and increase metabolism and that it was effective in doing this for him. I am aware that he eventually went back to a more conventional diet with higher fat intake but he noted that due to his stint with VLF, he believed that it raised his metabolism enough to allow him to have a higher fat intake without gaining fat. It seems that VLF does increase metabolism and aid in weight loss and the goal is only to do the diet until both are achieved and then switching back to a low or moderate fat intake for the sake of health. The forum member- The bigpeatowski, a female with major hypothyroid and hormonal issues, also undertook a VLF diet, with appropriate caloric restrictions for her BMR and TDEE and she also experienced major increase in metabolism and major weight loss during the 3-4 months that she was VLF. Just like Zachs, she noted that after her VLF stint, she was able to eat much higher fat without weight gain. So it seems that the running thread of commonality between her and Zachs was the VLF for increasing metabolism while also aiding in fat lass. So while the VLF is by no means a "miracle pill or diet", it does seem it is optimal for killing two birds with one stone: weight loss and metabolism increase.

However, my confusion is in wondering if starting with caloric maintenance while on VLF is appropriate and then raising it as metabolism increases is going to still initiate weight loss or if one should start in a caloric deficit from maintenance calories while implementing VLF and then as metabolism increases, then increase calories? Because it would seem if one starts at a caloric deficit from maintenance calories, this is going to be putting strain on the less-than-optimal metabolism where areas if one started at maintenance, it would not leave the body in a state of stress from too little calories. Thoughts?

 

[Jon]

Good question! I'd say for the members in this forum maybe first they try just eating a more balanced macro ratio(20%p/50-60%c/20-30%f) at maintenance to identify their true maintenance calories as the formulas for TDEE are somewhat arbitrary and only get you on a close ball park, not exact figures. Once maintenance is established, then I'd think it would be safe to try something like vlf at the same calorie level and see how that works. I feel maybe this way people are being methodical enough to see the variables they're working with and will be able to identify the ones helping or hindering as they change their format. Hopefully that would avoid as much stress as possible instead of just jumping into a calorie deficit or jumping into vlf without having laid the foundation or identifying current calorie needs first. Think that sounds good?

 

[DanielleB]

Good question! I'd say for the members in this forum maybe first they try just eating a more balanced macro ratio(20%p/50-60%c/20-30%f) at maintenance to identify their true maintenance calories as the formulas for TDEE are somewhat arbitrary and only get you on a close ball park, not exact figures. Once maintenance is established, then I'd think it would be safe to try something like vlf at the same calorie level and see how that works. I feel maybe this way people are being methodical enough to see the variables they're working with and will be able to identify the ones helping or hindering as they change their format. Hopefully that would avoid as much stress as possible instead of just jumping into a calorie deficit or jumping into vlf without having laid the foundation or identifying current calorie needs first. Think that sounds good?

I think that's a safe and thorough idea! What are your thoughts on exercise to exacerbate weight loss? Does one need to exercise (weight-lifting, walking to lose weight) or can one achieve similar results without exercise while keeping protein intake high?

 

[EIRE24]

High protein, glycine, k2 for liver. Low iron ( bacteria need it to thrive ), adequate saturated fats, no foods or supplements that I dont digest very well, so very easy digestible foods, no fibers, in the beginning small amounts of antibiotics, and no fructose or starch. This seemed to work well for me.

Apart from donating blood, what is the best way to lower iron? Would eating lots of red meat be bad if trying to lower iron? What antibiotic did you use?

 

[Jon]

I think that's a safe and thorough idea! What are your thoughts on exercise to exacerbate weight loss? Does one need to exercise (weight-lifting, walking to lose weight) or can one achieve similar results without exercise while keeping protein intake high?

I think Exercise is important during weightloss not because of increasing the calorie consumption but for keeping lean mass. Muscles need mechanical stimulation to be preserved in mass during a weightloss period as they are extremely calorically expensive and if the body is not being told there's a need for such mass then the muscles will atrophy in an attempt to reserve calories for the tissues the body deems more necessary. I am actually a proponent of doing as little exercise as possible during weightloss simply because it just compounds your cumulative fatigue during this phase. Haha I think the body sees stressors like god sees sin "all are equal" and so it's best to minimize these stressors to the ones that are necessary for the transformations you wish to see. Cardio should be limited to no less than 10,000 steps a day and no more than what your daily life requires because cardio accumulates stress hormones in greater quantity and more quickly than low volume/ high intensity weight lifting does. Not to mention the amount of cardio you'd have to do to create a large enough deficit to lose weight (if of course a calorie deficit is what you're trying to accomplish this by ;] ) is absurd in comparison to just eating less. 45 minutes of moderate pace walking burns roughly 250-300 calories but eating 20g less of fat and 40g less of carbs accomplishes an even greater deficit sans stressful activity.

Protein should definitely kept to around 0.8g/lbs lean mass at all times during weightloss. Some may need even more (1-1.4g/lbs lean mass) if they notice protein cravings or atrophy/weakening of muscles. I had this happen to me once.

 

[Jon]

@DanielleB i should also add as far as I'm concerned, weightloss should be limited to 4 week stints, after which, a two week "diet break" should be taken to rehab the hormonal profile as stress will have undoubtedly accrued and beneficial sex hormones will have been suppressed. 14 days was the minimum in study to rehab mice (I believe people as well but can't remember now lol) from starvation induced adverse hormonal reactions by being plied with adequate maintenance calories for each day of the two weeks.

 

[DanielleB]

@DanielleB i should also add as far as I'm concerned, weightloss should be limited to 4 week stints, after which, a two week "diet break" should be taken to rehab the hormonal profile as stress will have undoubtedly accrued and beneficial sex hormones will have been suppressed. 14 days was the minimum in study to rehab mice (I believe people as well but can't remember now lol) from starvation induced adverse hormonal reactions by being plied with adequate maintenance calories for each day of the two weeks.

So, just to ensure I'm understanding you, it's best to exercise for a month and then take two weeks off and up calories to maintenance for hormonal recovery? Have you tried this personally? If one is eating in a caloric deficit during those 4 weeks of training and then goes back up to maintenance calories during the two weeks of no training, wouldn't the body see this as a massive refeed, especially without exercise to deal with the excess calories? And if so, then wouldn't this result in weight gain, which is exactly what I am trying to avoid?

I do agree with your position on keeping workouts minimal during weight loss. I am trying to get walks in periodically on my days off training and I am training only 3x a week. However, every weekend I go on one mountain hike, often between 6-8 miles round trip with elevation of 2,000-3,000 ft. I'm sure that I get well over 10,000 steps in one hike alone on those days and since I'm doing this weekly, should I not be walking every week in addition to this and just keep the weight training? Do you think the walking in addition to the weekly hikes is too stressful. I feel like the benefits from the hike well outweigh whatever stressors it may temporarily put on the body in terms of adequate sunlight exposure, being out in nature, enjoying the scenery, etc. So in lieu of that, should I reduce the daily walks or cut them out completely?

 

[Jon]

I meant dieting itself should be ceased for 2 weeks at maintenance calorie level after 4 weeks of consistent dieting. Weight training should follow a similar pattern if following a progressive overload scheme, but should only be ceased for 1 week not 2 like dieting as more than 1 week could cause regression in CNS adaptation (strength) and mass. Your body shouldn't see this as a surplus. These figures of "maintenance" are ever changing during weightloss as your body composition shifting to a leaner most likely lighter body (unless gaining lbs of muscle simultaneously) GENERALLY requires alittle less energy for maintenance.

Now I will say I experienced and increase in my bmr during a pivotal fat loss phase in which I was in fact gaining significant muscle mass and losing fat simultaneously. I was able to do so because of my progressive training, and muscle memory as before I started losing fat i had lost about 6lbs of muscle due to getting injured and apathy to train progressively because of such. Because I already had an increased rate of protein synthesis beyond what my body currently was maintaining it made it possible for me to gain this muscle back quickly even while in a calorie deficit.

Novice weight lifters or genetically gifted people can experience something very similar if undertaking a well laid out training regiment with proper nutrition and rest. Otherwise it's relatively difficult to have such a recomp without some sort of exogenous hormone use (steroids).

I think your cardio sounds amount sounds great! I wouldn't change any of it, especially if it makes you happy! Not enough can be said for the feeling of fulfillment one can have from their habits and lifestyle.

 

[Jon]

I meant dieting itself should be ceased for 2 weeks at maintenance calorie level after 4 weeks of consistent dieting. Weight training should follow a similar pattern if following a progressive overload scheme, but should only be ceased for 1 week not 2 like dieting as more than 1 week could cause regression in CNS adaptation (strength) and mass. Your body shouldn't see this as a surplus. These figures of "maintenance" are ever changing during weightloss as your body composition shifting to a leaner most likely lighter body (unless gaining lbs of muscle simultaneously) GENERALLY requires alittle less energy for maintenance.

Now I will say I experienced and increase in my bmr during a pivotal fat loss phase in which I was in fact gaining significant muscle mass and losing fat simultaneously. I was able to do so because of my progressive training, and muscle memory as before I started losing fat i had lost about 6lbs of muscle due to getting injured and apathy to train progressively because of such. Because I already had an increased rate of protein synthesis beyond what my body currently was maintaining it made it possible for me to gain this muscle back quickly even while in a calorie deficit.

Novice weight lifters or genetically gifted people can experience something very similar if undertaking a well laid out training regiment with proper nutrition and rest. Otherwise it's relatively difficult to have such a recomp without some sort of exogenous hormone use (steroids).

I think your cardio amount sounds great! I wouldn't change any of it, especially if it makes you happy! Not enough can be said for the feeling of fulfillment one can have from their habits and lifestyle.

R

 

[raypeatclips]

@Jon What sort of weight lifting routine do you follow, or think is best? Thanks.

 

[MissRed]

Miss Red, here is the website that lists all raw milk farms for consumers! This has helped me find raw milk in all kinds of different cities and states, very helpful indeed. Hope it helps!

https://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/

Thanks so much! I see there is a pretty big "raw free zone" around central NJ but I havent looked at all the sites yet. Thanks for thinking of me!

 

[Jon]

@Jon What sort of weight lifting routine do you follow, or think is best? Thanks.

I follow the principles of progressive overload with a dual progression scheme for each of my exercises. I think training 2-4 days a week with atleast 48hrs rest between sessions and training each bodypart 1-2 times a week is optimal. Generally hypertrophy oriented training is done with a higher volume/ moderate intensity and strength oriented is done with a lower volume/ higher intensity.

The programs that help with establishing a basic understanding of how to perform these principles are:

-Wendler 5/3/1
5/3/1: How to Build Pure Strength | T Nation

-Starting Strength Program
Starting Strength

-Ogus 7/5/3 (for intermediates and advanced)
Download your Free Benchpress Guide

I personally used ogus 7/5/3 at length to help me understand how to implement scientifically based protocols and create my own regiment geared toward my own goals and preferences. Please forgive some of the vane douchey meat head talk that these guys sometimes use, theyre still are helpful resources lol.

 

[sladerunner69]

I follow the principles of progressive overload with a dual progression scheme for each of my exercises. I think training 2-4 days a week with atleast 48hrs rest between sessions and training each bodypart 1-2 times a week is optimal. Generally hypertrophy oriented training is done with a higher volume/ moderate intensity and strength oriented is done with a lower volume/ higher intensity.

The programs that help with establishing a basic understanding of how to perform these principles are:

-Wendler 5/3/1
5/3/1: How to Build Pure Strength | T Nation

-Starting Strength Program
Starting Strength

-Ogus 7/5/3 (for intermediates and advanced)
Download your Free Benchpress Guide

I personally used ogus 7/5/3 at length to help me understand how to implement scientifically based protocols and create my own regiment geared toward my own goals and preferences. Please forgive some of the vane douchey meat head talk that these guys sometimes use, they still are helpful resources lol.

I consider myself a rather experienced lifter, and I have to say your primary recommendations of 2-4 training sessions per week, hitting each body part 1-2 times per week, come off as a bit too vague to be helpful. A routine that trains each muscle group twice per week could never be comparable to a routine that trains each body part once- the volume would simply be too high. My affinity for Doggcrapp training is down to the idea that it is unique in permitting each muscle group to be trained as frequently as possible while still allowing for adequate recovery. Even so, this program only repeats 4-5 days and doesnt hit 2x week, and each workout is minimal volume consisting of only one intense super set per muscle and stretching.

 

[Jon]

I consider myself a rather experienced lifter, and I have to say your primary recommendations of 2-4 training sessions per week, hitting each body part 1-2 times per week, come off as a bit too vague to be helpful. A routine that trains each muscle group twice per week could never be comparable to a routine that trains each body part once- the volume would simply be too high. My affinity for Doggcrapp training is down to the idea that it is unique in permitting each muscle group to be trained as frequently as possible while still allowing for adequate recovery. Even so, this program only repeats 4-5 days and doesnt hit 2x week, and each workout is minimal volume consisting of only one intense super set per muscle and stretching.

I left it vague as a full explanation would be lengthy. This is why I put up the links, so that if anyone is interested they can research further for themselves.

A slightly more in depth explaination of what I follow (currently hypertrophy is my goal) would be:

-1-2 direct exercises per bodypart per week

-Dual progression: 65% of 1 rep max taking this weight from a starting point of 24 reps per exercise per workout (3 sets of 8 reps) to 36 reps per exercise per workout (3 sets of 12 reps) over the course of a 4 week mesocycle at which point I increase the weight 2.5-10lbs and restart the reps at 24.

-4 training days a week fitting in 1-2 exercises for each bodypart.

All this combined equates to a direct weekly rep volume per muscle group of 48-72reps. This is well under the 120 reps weekly maximum established by different spots performance studies and also under the single session rep max of 75-80. There is however carry over volume during a training week (i.e. Back rows stimulate biceps and accumulate unquantified volume on top of direct bicep work like bicep curls) so with that in mind I'm most likely still hitting the 120 rep weekly max per bodypart.


There are other nuances of effective training like gauging reps in reserve or rate of perceived exertion but these are more advanced techniques and takes experience and further education to understand how to use them.

 

[tca300]

Apart from donating blood, what is the best way to lower iron? Would eating lots of red meat be bad if trying to lower iron? What antibiotic did you use?

Haidut has shared a lot about various things that remove iron, tetracycline, vitamin E, and I think aspirin. Then as a protective measure for future iron absorption, using milk, and coffee help block its absorption. I used tetracycline and amoxicillin. Red meat is pretty high in iron. I dont know how effective various things are at removing iron, I donated blood 4 times in 2017, so I cant speak with any experience of whether other ways actually work.

 

[sladerunner69]

I left it vague as a full explanation would be lengthy. This is why I put up the links, so that if anyone is interested they can research further for themselves.

A slightly more in depth explaination of what I follow (currently hypertrophy is my goal) would be:

-1-2 direct exercises per bodypart per week

-Dual progression: 65% of 1 rep max taking this weight from a starting point of 24 reps per exercise per workout (3 sets of 8 reps) to 36 reps per exercise per workout (3 sets of 12 reps) over the course of a 4 week mesocycle at which point I increase the weight 2.5-10lbs and restart the reps at 24.

-4 training days a week fitting in 1-2 exercises for each bodypart.

All this combined equates to a direct weekly rep volume per muscle group of 48-72reps. This is well under the 120 reps weekly maximum established by different spots performance studies and also under the single session rep max of 75-80. There is however carry over volume during a training week (i.e. Back rows stimulate biceps and accumulate unquantified volume on top of direct bicep work like bicep curls) so with that in mind I'm most likely still hitting the 120 rep weekly max per bodypart.


There are other nuances of effective training like gauging reps in reserve or rate of perceived exertion but these are more advanced techniques and takes experience and further education to understand how to use them.

120 reps weekly is exorbitantly high, in my view. The sources you provided in your previous post were based largely on anecdote and the intuition of weightlifting coaches and enthusiasts. To me, these sources don't exercise much scientifically and don't provided thorough citations. Therefore, I don't think they are appropriate for someone pursuing scientifically optimal health and wellness through nutrition, lifestyle and training, which would be the goal shared by most on this board. For this aim I would point you to "Body By Science" or even "the 4-hour body" by Timothy Ferris. The former delves into many of the scientific aspects and is heavily cited, while the latter is admittedly more anecdotal but well still well supported as it alluded to Arthur Miller's training with Casey Viator who was able to gain nearly 40 lbs of muscle with just 1 work-out each week (steroid use was denied), and the result is a strong case for lowering volume and frequency in ostensibly every gym-goers routine, regardless of goals. Body By Science even details how already strong, experienced lifters improved in many ways simply by lowering their training frequency from 3 45 minute workouts per week to one 20 minute workout per week.

That said, if hyperophy is the goal then some of the "bro-science" routines detailed in your links could be better suited. Though, I would never recommend them to anyone for fear they will compromise structure and metabolism long term. After all, all weightlifters and bodybuilders end up with joint pain, injuries, kidney problems etc etc. To avoid this I would never train to failure and never perform more than a single 30 minute routine for any given muscle group per week, and I don't consider biceps or triceps to be a muscle group, the arms are included push/pull categories, as they are always working in conjunction with the primary muscles.

So regardless I think the 120 reps per week should be cut in half, or even a quarter, if full hormonal recovery is given attention. Besides, muscle growth is mainly achieved through dietary protein, this was proven by multiple time Olympian Dorian Yates who asserted that 80% of bodybuilding is diet, and that his lifting never lasted more than 30 minutes with a couple intense sets per muscle, but mostly warm-up sets.