Need advice to lose fat

[robertf]

tca: I am long term high fat and fairly lean. protein was the culprit in weight gain. not too many paleo people do low protein. look at kwasniewski's work.

jennifer: thoughts about dairy - rashes can be an indication of intestinal or liver toxicity, i would bet on that. how to deal with it is another problem. also rashes from dairy are linked with parasites.

have you tried boiling the milk ?

and for cheese have you noticed a difference between aged and non-aged. you could try paneer.

 

[tara]

tca: I am long term high fat and fairly lean. protein was the culprit in weight gain. not too many paleo people do low protein. look at kwasniewski's work.

You'll find a lot of ex-high-fat diet survivors here trying to recover from the damage.
Along with a high fat diet inevitably containing unnecessarily high amounts of metabolism-suppressing PUFAs, and often having a high phosphorus to calcium ration, the burning of fat generally produces less metabolism-stimulating CO2 than efficient oxidation of sugars.

[edit to add:] Also, high fat in a meal reduces the cells' ability to oxidise sugar (Randle 'cycle'); continuous high fat/low carb dieting seems to promote insulin resistance.

 

[juanitacarlos]

The one thing I can suggest which has absolutely kick started my weight loss is glycine - I am taking 10g per day and I believe it is the main reason I am losing weight.

ttramone, what brand of glycine/gelatin are you using??

lindsey - I use Now Foods glycine and Great Lakes hydro collagen. About 15-20g of the GL.

 

[lindsay]

The one thing I can suggest which has absolutely kick started my weight loss is glycine - I am taking 10g per day and I believe it is the main reason I am losing weight.

ttramone, what brand of glycine/gelatin are you using??

lindsey - I use Now Foods glycine and Great Lakes hydro collagen. About 15-20g of the GL.

Thanks!!

 

[robertf]

Well, I bailed on strictly high fat very soon - I knew it wasn't sustainable. I do fat and sugar together, which is why I found this site. I always felt best on that combo together whereas most diets usually recommend excluding one or the other. I wasn't recommending kwasniewski as something to do, it's more of an intellectual curiosity - mainly for the low protein aspect which worked out well for me in weight loss and general energy levels.

One thing he said that I think is true is that after a period of rebuilding your protein needs will diminish. I had this happen to the extreme, so it's just something to watch out for and not assume that you will need x amount of protein forever. I found that excess protein, more than fat or carbs would cause weight gain, something I had not considered before because of being paleo-brainwashed.

 

[taylor108]

robertf-from personal experience, I have also found that excess protein can cause weight gain.
Does anyone have a simple scientific explanation or theory for why that is? And if so, why do bodybuilders/IIFYMers, or people who generally follow high-protein diets, not get fat?
Just wondering and curious to see if anyone has an explanation.

 

[Filip1993]

I have the same experience with protein too. Here are som studies on protein and cortisol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6270500/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6269563/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3573976/

 

[robertf]

taylor:

I do not know the whole story about why it happens. I think it is extremely complex and individual. The cortisol angle just rang true for me when I read Ray's explanation since every time I eat too much muscle meat it feels like I have lifted weights or there is too much lactic acid going on, but it doesn't happen with dairy protein or organ meats.

I also think that it has to do with what stage in life you are in, kids will probably need more protein than adults who are fully formed. I had such wild swings in my protein needs even as an adult though. When I first got sick I needed tons of red meat to keep muscle from breaking down, I was eating 3 ribeyes per day for a while. This is one of the reasons that I never suspected protein as a culprit.

Bodybuilding is a different story too, it makes sense to me that some of them would eat a lot of protein because they ae trying to put on muscle, and they are very physically active. But not all of them eat a lot of protein from what I've read.

You can read author Andreas Moritz for another explanation.

As far as a complete Peatarian explanation you would have to ask other people since I am still learning. I do not think cortisol is the whole story though because I can easily stress myself out with other methods than eating protein and raise cortisol and it will not cause me to gain weight.

 

[Jennifer]

tca: I am long term high fat and fairly lean. protein was the culprit in weight gain. not too many paleo people do low protein. look at kwasniewski's work.

jennifer: thoughts about dairy - rashes can be an indication of intestinal or liver toxicity, i would bet on that. how to deal with it is another problem. also rashes from dairy are linked with parasites.

have you tried boiling the milk ?

and for cheese have you noticed a difference between aged and non-aged. you could try paneer.

Thanks for your thoughts, robertf. :)

Yeah, I've tried boiling the milk. With cheese, the more aged or cultured, the quicker I get the rash, within 10-15 minutes of eating it. Fresh cheese usually takes a half hour for the rash to appear and milk, I get it within an hour.

I've also tried 3 rounds of antibiotics (Neomycin), super strength oregano oil with 85% Carvacol content, diatomaceous earth, flowers of sulphur, apple cider vinegar, activated charcoal, 7 day raw garlic juice protocol and had comprehensive stool tests done, along with an endoscopy copy and hydrogen breath test and nothing was found.

So for now, it's apparent dairy and I don't jive well. Now that the dairy has been out of my diet for a bit, the rash is gone, my skin completely smooth, my depression and brain fog gone and the strangest thing is my heartburn disappeared. I thought the milk was keeping the heartburn away, but apparently I was wrong.

Thanks again!

 

[lindsay]

I've also tried 3 rounds of antibiotics (Neomycin), super strength oregano oil with 85% Carvacol content, diatomaceous earth, flowers of sulphur, apple cider vinegar, 7 day raw garlic juice protocol and had comprehensive stool tests done, along with an endoscopy copy and hydrogen breath test and nothing was found.

Did any of the above help you with gut issues? I've been wanting to try the garlic treatment, but I want to wait until a time when I don't have to work with clients - I feel like I smell all day after eating raw garlic (or at least my breath does). But I noticed after ten days on antibiotics post appendectomy that my estrogen dominance was hardly there - it's slowly been creeping back in and I think it's my digestive issues that regulate it. I was digesting everything super fast on antibiotics and now things have gotten more sluggish, despite eating the exact same foods as while I was on antibiotics (starch aside - I gave up on that).

 

[Jennifer]

Lindsay, the antibiotic worked on the first round (10 day course). The rash and brain fog disappeared and I had smooth transit, but after that, each additional Neomycin course made things horribly worse. I ended up with a thick white furry tongue, a sore throat, rash flaring and the worse brain fog of my life. I spent a lot of time in bed because I was so out of it.

After that, my doctor said candida was my problem all along. That led me to do the raw garlic juice like thebigpeat did. I had diarrhea with the first glass of juice and after that, nothing! I didn't even feel intestinal burning. I think it worked for her because she had a ruptured appendix and had been dealing with chronic diarrhea, whereas I think my issue was the dairy.

Could things have slowed down and estrogen symptoms pick up due to the change in daylight?

 

[lindsay]

Lindsay, the antibiotic worked on the first round (10 day course). The rash and brain fog disappeared and I had smooth transit, but after that, each additional Neomycin course made things horribly worse. I ended up with a thick white furry tongue, a sore throat, rash flaring and the worse brain fog of my life. I spent a lot of time in bed because I was so out of it.

After that, my doctor said candida was my problem all along. That led me to do the raw garlic juice like thebigpeat did. I had diarrhea with the first glass of juice and after that, nothing! I didn't even feel intestinal burning. I think it worked for her because she had a ruptured appendix and had been dealing with chronic diarrhea, whereas I think my issue was the dairy.

Could things have slowed down and estrogen symptoms pick up due to the change in daylight?

So the garlic juice really is that powerful, huh? How many days did you say you took it - seven? And did you use a probiotic too? Did it help your digestion at all?

Yes, it's possible that the weather is affecting my estrogen levels, but they were feeling high before the appendicitis hit at the beginning of September (and no wonder, with all that Serotonin in the gut during the infection). So long as my digestion was fast, I felt great following the surgery (although the antibiotics did cause a bit of diarrhea for awhile, but it didn't last all day). But then after the antibiotics wore off, I started to have UTI symptoms real bad. Cranberry extract really helped with that - I was determined to not go to the doctor again. Still, I would like to try the garlic thing because I think the reason the antibiotics work so well for estrogen dominance is because they relieve the burden on the liver (I think). RP talks about this in some of his interviews - how they allowed women to become fertile. Anyhow, I'm determined to not up my thyroid dose to combat everything because eventually I want to come off of it. I don't feel I should need it, since I have my thyroid gland, but I just keep getting walloped with issues that haven't let me come off the stuff.

Is the bigpeatowski living currently with a ruptured appendix? That is brave, let me tell you. My doctor offered me that route, but I was so scared..... there are some things in life I just don't want to deal with and that's likely one of them. But they said my appendix was real bad, so I'm kind of glad to be rid of it - it was such a nuisance anyhow.

 

[Jennifer]

So the garlic juice really is that powerful, huh? How many days did you say you took it - seven? And did you use a probiotic too? Did it help your digestion at all?

Oh sorry, Lindsay! I meant that the raw garlic did nothing for me. It had no affect on me, whatsoever. I did it for 7 days, 3X a day, just like thebigpeat. My dog loved me that week. He actually slept on top of me at night that whole week. :?

But then after the antibiotics wore off, I started to have UTI symptoms real bad. Cranberry extract really helped with that - I was determined to not go to the doctor again.

That's great that the cranberry extract worked. I've heard the extract and juice works well for that.

Still, I would like to try the garlic thing because I think the reason the antibiotics work so well for estrogen dominance is because they relieve the burden on the liver (I think). RP talks about this in some of his interviews - how they allowed women to become fertile. Anyhow, I'm determined to not up my thyroid dose to combat everything because eventually I want to come off of it. I don't feel I should need it, since I have my thyroid gland, but I just keep getting walloped with issues that haven't let me come off the stuff.

Is the bigpeatowski living currently with a ruptured appendix? That is brave, let me tell you. My doctor offered me that route, but I was so scared..... there are some things in life I just don't want to deal with and that's likely one of them. But they said my appendix was real bad, so I'm kind of glad to be rid of it - it was such a nuisance anyhow.

Right! Ray talked about the antibiotic/fertility thing in the Herb Doctors interview on endotoxin, if I remember correctly. I know thebigpeat said she saw an improvement in her hormones after doing the raw garlic protocol so I'd say it's worth a shot. From what I remember, her appendix ruptured and she had to go the hospital, but didn't want to have it removed so the doctors had a meeting and finally gave in to just giving her high doses of antibiotics. Sorry BP if I got your story wrong. But yeah, I don't blame you for having your appendix removed. That's scary!

Since the garlic didn't give me diarrhea except for that one time and I never got diarrhea from the antibiotic either (actually started to constipate me), I figured this was a sign I don't have a problem with bacteria, fungus or endotoxin and that it really is a dairy allergy.

I came across something where Ray said that endotoxin causes estrogen concentration in the blood to rise. I have low estrogen, that always stays at the same low level, as well as my prolactin. So again, not an endotoxin issue. Here's his quote. He also mentions Penicillin decreasing estrogen:

“Chronic constipation, and anxiety which decreases blood circulation in the intestine, can increase the liver’s exposure to endotoxin. Endotoxin (like intense physical activity) causes the estrogen concentration of the blood to rise. Diets that speed intestinal peristalsis might be expected to postpone menopause. Penicillin treatment, probably by lowering endotoxin production, is known to decrease estrogen and cortisone, while increasing progesterone." RP

Funny enough, fruit and sweet potato speed up my intestinal peristalsis and even well cook veggies sped up my peristalsis and never gave me gut pains so I'll probably be adding those in as well. I know you stop starches, but what about cooked non-starchy veggies? Do they help get things moving faster for you? Adding them into your diet might be a way around having to do the garlic or at east keep the endotoxin at bay after stopping the raw garlic?

Quick question for you. You mention Whole Foods now has bone broth? I checked and couldn't find it. I even asked the guys at the meat counter and they had no idea what I was talking about. They brought me to the stocks. I found bones, but no broth. Can you tell me in what department you found it in? Or what the package it comes in looks like? I'm wondering if they don't carry it in NH.

 

[lindsay]

So the garlic juice really is that powerful, huh? How many days did you say you took it - seven? And did you use a probiotic too? Did it help your digestion at all?

Oh sorry, Lindsay! I meant that the raw garlic did nothing for me. It had no affect on me, whatsoever. I did it for 7 days, 3X a day, just like thebigpeat. My dog loved me that week. He actually slept on top of me at night that whole week. :?

But then after the antibiotics wore off, I started to have UTI symptoms real bad. Cranberry extract really helped with that - I was determined to not go to the doctor again.

That's great that the cranberry extract worked. I've heard the extract and juice works well for that.

Still, I would like to try the garlic thing because I think the reason the antibiotics work so well for estrogen dominance is because they relieve the burden on the liver (I think). RP talks about this in some of his interviews - how they allowed women to become fertile. Anyhow, I'm determined to not up my thyroid dose to combat everything because eventually I want to come off of it. I don't feel I should need it, since I have my thyroid gland, but I just keep getting walloped with issues that haven't let me come off the stuff.

Is the bigpeatowski living currently with a ruptured appendix? That is brave, let me tell you. My doctor offered me that route, but I was so scared..... there are some things in life I just don't want to deal with and that's likely one of them. But they said my appendix was real bad, so I'm kind of glad to be rid of it - it was such a nuisance anyhow.

Right! Ray talked about the antibiotic/fertility thing in the Herb Doctors interview on endotoxin, if I remember correctly. I know thebigpeat said she saw an improvement in her hormones after doing the raw garlic protocol so I'd say it's worth a shot. From what I remember, her appendix ruptured and she had to go the hospital, but didn't want to have it removed so the doctors had a meeting and finally gave in to just giving her high doses of antibiotics. Sorry BP if I got your story wrong. But yeah, I don't blame you for having your appendix removed. That's scary!

Since the garlic didn't give me diarrhea except for that one time and I never got diarrhea from the antibiotic either (actually started to constipate me), I figured this was a sign I don't have a problem with bacteria, fungus or endotoxin and that it really is a dairy allergy.

I came across something where Ray said that endotoxin causes estrogen concentration in the blood to rise. I have low estrogen, that always stays at the same low level, as well as my prolactin. So again, not an endotoxin issue. Here's his quote. He also mentions Penicillin decreasing estrogen:

“Chronic constipation, and anxiety which decreases blood circulation in the intestine, can increase the liver’s exposure to endotoxin. Endotoxin (like intense physical activity) causes the estrogen concentration of the blood to rise. Diets that speed intestinal peristalsis might be expected to postpone menopause. Penicillin treatment, probably by lowering endotoxin production, is known to decrease estrogen and cortisone, while increasing progesterone." RP

Funny enough, fruit and sweet potato speed up my intestinal peristalsis and even well cook veggies sped up my peristalsis and never gave me gut pains so I'll probably be adding those in as well. I know you stop starches, but what about cooked non-starchy veggies? Do they help get things moving faster for you? Adding them into your diet might be a way around having to do the garlic or at east keep the endotoxin at bay after stopping the raw garlic?

Quick question for you. You mention Whole Foods now has bone broth? I checked and couldn't find it. I even asked the guys at the meat counter and they had no idea what I was talking about. They brought me to the stocks. I found bones, but no broth. Can you tell me in what department you found it in? Or what the package it comes in looks like? I'm wondering if they don't carry it in NH.

Thanks for the info. Jennifer!! I'm sorry the garlic didn't work for you, but I'm glad you figured out that dairy was the offender. Has it always given you a rash? My friend had an issue with that at one point - I think she grew out of it eventually.

And yes - the cranberry extract worked really well. I went from having burning painful urination (which might have been the kidneys) to much easier to pass urine. But I still have to take it daily - I guess part of the risks of surgery is that one is more prone to infection following their hospital stay. Not to mention, the appendicitis caused me to have a huge infection - at least my temps were around 103 for 3 days, which makes me think there was a bad infection.

Anyhow, I am trying to incorporate natural remedies that I can use regularly - raw garlic, of course I want to try, but the yuck factor is kind of there. However, I could always make an aioli :) Cranberry seems to help and I'm going to look to beets a lot in the future. I still eat loads of veggies and the problem that I seem to have is that my peristalsis is very irregular. Sometimes it's normal, sometimes it's slow and sometimes over stimulated. When it's slow, that's when I have issues with water retention, swollen breasts, etc. I didn't have all these issues as often when I was vegetarian, so I'm thinking about going back to a sort of diet like I used to have, but not so stupid with low protein consumption (I will likely eat fish and eggs and some meat - it's just so expensive to get good meat). I just find the veggies to be beneficial - and yes, I've been eating cooked veggies. Definitely makes a difference, although they can cause bloating.

But beets are really good for the liver, so I think I will be making lots of borsch this winter!!

What is your diet looking like now that you can't have dairy??

And regarding the bone broth, it's in the package broth sections - made by "Pacific" brand. It's not entirely ideal, but when you don't want to take the time to make a soup, it works. I made a thai curry soup with the bone broth last week :) Here is a web link so you know what to look for:

http://www.pacificfoods.com/food/broths ... roths.aspx

You might even be able to order them online if you cannot find them at Wholefoods. They just showed up to our local Wholefoods, so I imagine they will be everywhere soon. And they aren't so tasty as a homemade stock, but if you are making a soup where the ingredients will overpower the broth, it works perfect.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks for the info. Jennifer!! I'm sorry the garlic didn't work for you, but I'm glad you figured out that dairy was the offender. Has it always given you a rash? My friend had an issue with that at one point - I think she grew out of it eventually.

And yes - the cranberry extract worked really well. I went from having burning painful urination (which might have been the kidneys) to much easier to pass urine. But I still have to take it daily - I guess part of the risks of surgery is that one is more prone to infection following their hospital stay. Not to mention, the appendicitis caused me to have a huge infection - at least my temps were around 103 for 3 days, which makes me think there was a bad infection.

Anyhow, I am trying to incorporate natural remedies that I can use regularly - raw garlic, of course I want to try, but the yuck factor is kind of there. However, I could always make an aioli :) Cranberry seems to help and I'm going to look to beets a lot in the future. I still eat loads of veggies and the problem that I seem to have is that my peristalsis is very irregular. Sometimes it's normal, sometimes it's slow and sometimes over stimulated. When it's slow, that's when I have issues with water retention, swollen breasts, etc. I didn't have all these issues as often when I was vegetarian, so I'm thinking about going back to a sort of diet like I used to have, but not so stupid with low protein consumption (I will likely eat fish and eggs and some meat - it's just so expensive to get good meat). I just find the veggies to be beneficial - and yes, I've been eating cooked veggies. Definitely makes a difference, although they can cause bloating.

But beets are really good for the liver, so I think I will be making lots of borsch this winter!!

What is your diet looking like now that you can't have dairy??

And regarding the bone broth, it's in the package broth sections - made by "Pacific" brand. It's not entirely ideal, but when you don't want to take the time to make a soup, it works. I made a thai curry soup with the bone broth last week :) Here is a web link so you know what to look for:

http://www.pacificfoods.com/food/broths ... roths.aspx

You might even be able to order them online if you cannot find them at Wholefoods. They just showed up to our local Wholefoods, so I imagine they will be everywhere soon. And they aren't so tasty as a homemade stock, but if you are making a soup where the ingredients will overpower the broth, it works perfect.

You're welcome, Lindsay! :)

The rash only started after I reintroduced dairy into my diet after doing 80/10/10 for those two years. I was very bound up as a baby, but I was also bottled fed so who knows what could of caused it then. I just think right now I'm clearly having allergic reactions to it, but I'm hoping I'll be able to add it back into my diet like your friend. I love dairy and would miss not having it.

Yeah, I won't go back to a vegetarian diet like I was on before, either. I definitely need some animal protein in my diet. I tried the potato thing for my protein needs and it just wasn't cutting it.

Right now I've been eating a lot of fruit, eggs and shellfish (scallops/crab). I've cooked up lots of skinless chicken breast and will be using that as a protein source too since I tolerate it well. I'll probably make up some collard/kale broth to help offset the phosphorus, but I'm really not too worried about that right now. My main concern is letting my body guide me to what it needs.

I've also been craving/drinking a crazy amount of strawberry/watermelon lemonade and limeade. *TMI WARNING* I think it's doing something good for my liver/gallbladder because ever since doing 80/10/10, my stools weren't ever brown and worse, bright yellow with high dairy consumption and clay/white when I took the antibiotic. Bile is what gives digested food the brown color. Given that I've had gallstones and little gallbladder attacks in the recent past, having brown stools now is a good sign to me. In fact, in RBTI, fresh lemons heal the liver. I guess it's true in my case.

Ooh...I'll have to try borsch! I've never had that, but I'm wanting to try new things and get into cooking again. I've missed being creative with recipes.

Thank you so much for the link, Lindsay! Now that I know it's the Pacific brand I'll check with Whole Foods or even the local health food store and see if they can order a case for me. I'm a bit different in that I can't stand the smell of bone broth cooking. It actually turns my stomach, but I want to have it for medicinal purposes to heal my gut.

 

[pboy]

id say don't drink plain or dilute liquid, don't add isolated fats, and have at least some fiber every evening to remove biliary estrogen so water wont be retained as much in gut

for the rest, just balanced nutrient intake and enough, no fasting on purpose or restricting energy

 

[tara]

I have the same experience with protein too. Here are som studies on protein and cortisol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6270500/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6269563/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3573976/

Only got to the abstracts.
The first one said high protein diet was 4g protein/kg bodyweight, which is 2-4 times what Peat would recommend. Hard for most people to eat enough carbohydrate to balance that much protein, so not surprising it raised stress levels.

 

[tca300]

tca300:

Thank you. How much meat do you consume a day? and what kind of meats do you use?

Anywhere from 100-120 grams of protein worth of very lean ground beef.

 

[gretchen]

Read Forever Fat Loss by Ari Whitten. He explains how to lower your set point, which according to his research, doesn't involve limiting any specific macronutrient.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Is the bigpeatowski living currently with a ruptured appendix? That is brave, let me tell you. My doctor offered me that route, but I was so scared..... there are some things in life I just don't want to deal with and that's likely one of them. But they said my appendix was real bad, so I'm kind of glad to be rid of it - it was such a nuisance anyhow.

Right! Ray talked about the antibiotic/fertility thing in the Herb Doctors interview on endotoxin, if I remember correctly. I know thebigpeat said she saw an improvement in her hormones after doing the raw garlic protocol so I'd say it's worth a shot. From what I remember, her appendix ruptured and she had to go the hospital, but didn't want to have it removed so the doctors had a meeting and finally gave in to just giving her high doses of antibiotics. Sorry BP if I got your story wrong. But yeah, I don't blame you for having your appendix removed. That's scary!

Hello Ladies! Yes, my appendix had already ruptured by the time I went to the hospital. According to the scan there was nothing left except a massive debris field (everywhere the toxins spilled became inflamed). The doctors told me that they would need to remove several feet of my intestines in order to clean up all the inflammation. Therefore I declined as they could not guarantee the outcome or how much of my guts they were going to remove. I stayed in the hospital for a few days on IV antibiotics and went home with two more antibiotics that I took for several weeks.

I felt great while on the antibiotics, but it was a while after I finished the course when all hell broke loose (heading into fall and severely hypothyroid as well). I had a major bout of gastroenteritis followed by serious indigestion, intermittent constipation/diarrhea and ultimately chronic diarrhea. Four years of seeing many doctors and several specialists got me absolutely nowhere.

Looking back, I think I must have had a chronic C.diff infection and SIBO. Taking raw garlic and more thyroid finally helped me to overcome the gut issues. My opinion, solely based on my bizarre experience, is that gut dysbiosis causes the intestines to become inflamed. Inflamed guts release estrogen, serotonin and histamine which leads to food intolerance AND can also lead to weight gain. Also, my previous years of low-carbing DEFINITELY made me insulin resistant, wrecked my metabolism and effed up my hormones. I had a high-fat diet back then cuz you gotta get your calories from somewhere. I feel that eating a lot of fat majorly contributed to endotoxin and mood issues etc.....just my two cents :2cents