Low/No Fat Diet Without Weight Loss

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iPeat

iPeat

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@iPeat, returning to the original topic, I also have had a similar experience when I tried no-fat diets a few times. Recently I tried just potato, skim milk, and honey (those 3 foods only), but didn't lose significant weight with them. I think I tried it 1-2 times before, and lost a little bit, but found it too stressful to continue. This last time I didn't lose anything with it. The diet was nutrient dense (e.g., I wasn't eating only 2 potatoes and 2 cups of milk). I had the long weekend to experiment so it was basically 3 days of that. I made sure to eat every time I was hungry and respond adequately with food.

So I think your body's history may play a role and overall needs.

For example, I previously was quite malnourished, underweight, and was under a lot of stress physiologically (had many of the hypothyroid symptoms for most of my life).

So perhaps the no-fat diet was contradictory to my body's current needs. I never purged and I never intentionally followed restrictive diets, but I definitely had no idea about vitamins and minerals, the importance of protein, so all this coupled with over-exercising was probably chronically stressful. This article is about how eating disorders can affect the brain: How eating disorders affect the neurobiology of the brain - The Emily Program Demyelination is also a common thing among women with eating disorders and I read how fat can help repair the damage.

I read a post by natedawggh which got me thinking along those lines:
If you attempt a low-fat diet (and you have plenty of protein and carbs) but you don't feel good (achy, irritated, restless), then you need to keep saturated fat in your diet. If you do a low fat and you feel calm and pleasant, and experience an increase in libido then you can do low fat.
Fat And Libido
There may be room for individual variance and background, then. I'm going to experiment with some more saturated fats (butter) to see how my body responds. I tried it yesterday and seemed to lose weight but it's always hard to tell from just one day. Will let you know if I notice something.


I tried almost the same diet I'm on now a few months ago with the exception of adding coconut oil to my yogurt and taking it by the tsp a few times per day. I'd say 4-5 tsp per day. I still gained.

On the zero fat diet, I do feel better. I've had some side effects though (I'm assuming from stored fat release).
 

Dino D

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@Cirion if you dont gain from 500 gram of carb... then eating 600-700 gram of rice and cooked chicken breast (600 gram a day) could do the job...
or a lot of potatoes...
but if you dont lose
but you lose with 200 gram of fat and 130-150 gram of protein, then it is the insulin, and a balance and a targeted funcional carb intake is the solution...
I just dont see my self ever loosing weight while eating over 200 gram of carbs, often i need to go under 100 and not much snacking... also I dont truly see many reports about big weight loss with others on low fat...
 

Dino D

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High protein/Starch only or very low sugar/low fat diet leads to weight loss. This is common for bodybuilders. I have experience with these typr of diet awhile and can attest to the effectiveness. Provides the glucose and the protein, exactly what you need. Now if the gut is compromised starch can exacerbate that issue. Increasing starch will increase weight by the increase in bulk from the starch itself. Simple sugars and low fiber fruits do contain so much unused fibers and therefore less weight on. Fat gain is another thing. I highly doubt there would be so much reported "fat gain" from starch if the diet was solely starch for carbs.
i love starch more... i will try
3-6 eggs
600 gram of meat (chicken or beef)
sometimes a bit cottage chease (150 gram of protein)
500 gram carbs from rice or potatoes...

what about the fat when i eat carbs? should I add fat to the carbs or not...
eggs with yolk or without? or no eggs at all
 

redsun

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i love starch more... i will try
3-6 eggs
600 gram of meat (chicken or beef)
sometimes a bit cottage chease (150 gram of protein)
500 gram carbs from rice or potatoes...

what about the fat when i eat carbs? should I add fat to the carbs or not...
eggs with yolk or without? or no eggs at all

Some fat with the carbs should be fine. But it should be limited as eggs also provide a decent amount of fat.
 

Mr. Sanders

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This seems like way too much, especially if you're severely overweight. Are you saying someone who weighs 300 lb should eat 450 gram protein? Have fun with all that ammonia, acidic by products etc...!!!. Even 300g seems like way too much. Research has clearly shown that the ideal Carb to protein ratio is roughly 4:1, and to do that with 300 gram protein you need 1,200 gram carb... (with 450g it'd be a mind numbing 1,800 carbs) and we've already established that this high of a carb intake is conducive to massive de novo lipogenesis plus the prompt storage of ANY dietary fat above zero grams straight into body fat stores... on the other hand, 150-200g seems a little more reasonable.


I'm not talking to a person who is 300 pounds.
Reality and context wins.
 

Cirion

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@Cirion if you dont gain from 500 gram of carb... then eating 600-700 gram of rice and cooked chicken breast (600 gram a day) could do the job...
or a lot of potatoes...
but if you dont lose
but you lose with 200 gram of fat and 130-150 gram of protein, then it is the insulin, and a balance and a targeted funcional carb intake is the solution...
I just dont see my self ever loosing weight while eating over 200 gram of carbs, often i need to go under 100 and not much snacking... also I dont truly see many reports about big weight loss with others on low fat...

For sure most people aren't going to do well with zero or ultra low fat. I agree with the earlier quote from Nate saying that if you don't feel right on low fat, then it's probably not a good idea to eat low fat. Simple but effective test for it. Anyone who still has fat to lose / PUFA to lose, probably should not eat super low/zero fat. I think when I ate zero fat way back in the day, only worked because I was A.) lean, not fat and B.) exercised a lot.

But I also think that being unable to eat any carbs along with fat without getting fat is also not a good thing, and shows an inability to oxidize carbs effectively / insulin resistance / fatty liver ETC. I'm not saying I know the answer, but I don't think it's normal to have to restrict carbs that heavily. I don't think the answer is to eat ultra high fat. I tried that a few days last week and my symptoms worsened.

I'm also not interested in losing weight for the sake of losing weight. Yes I want to lose weight, but I also want to restore metabolism (aka be able to process fats AND carbs, without getting fat).
 
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That's all academic and nice, but what about for the folk "In the trenches" so to speak (actually following this type of diet) and failing hardcore on it? Which, I'd dare to wager, is most of the forum members here? Would you say it's simply a lack of methionine and choline? Some people here are more liberal than others with PUFA's, but for the most part, most people here are pretty restrictive on PUFA, so I don't think that's the issue. PUFA from body fat stores, perhaps tho. It's true though that a lot of people (Myself included) have tended to avoid eggs due to PUFA and thus also miss out on choline. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm on the fence/open about choline (and just started supplementing/adding eggs back to my diet), but is choline truly THAT powerful of a substance that can literally make or break the health of the entire body?
OP is consuming milk, isn't he?

The fact that people who eat fruitarian diets get very lean( too lean, sometimes) tells me that the issue isn't fruit or fructose or glucose. Durianrider eats a very low fat, dairy free diet, with white sugar, fruit juice, white rice, potatoes and soda. He's very lean, and has some muscle. He claims to have coached many people who were fat and made them lean with a diet that resembles the Walter Kempner diet. He doesn't eat any animal products, but I think that it's mainly dairy that makes some people very fat, so lean beef and lean chicken, as well as lean pork, may work.

Imo, you don't need extra choline if you're consuming a lot of sugar. The ratio of sugar to choline in some fruits is 100grams: 100mg, so if one is eating 500 grams of sugar, it's important to consume around 500mg of choline, but much more than that may not be useful for dealing with this amount of sugar.

A very low fat, fruit-and-starch-based diet, without any dairy, and perhaps without any animal foods( if they are fattening to you),could work, and when your weight is where you want it to be, then incorporating beef and chicken and pork back into the diet will help maintain the weight, as well as providing substrate for muscle mass increase.
 

Cirion

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Ok, but then we get into the age old debate of being lean VS being healthy tho. Most fruitarians are not healthy in the long-term. And I'd wager most of them say "they can't tolerate protein and fat". IMO the pinnacle of health is when you can eat anything you want, in the quantities you want, and not get fat or feel bad (except perhaps in the short term from being stuffed lol). If you can't do this, you're not yet healthy. "Food intolerances" are not a thing I no longer believe, unless you have a legitimate food allergy and those are usually fatal. "Food intolerance" is simply a symptom of metabolic dysfunction and hypothyroidism.

Ah, walter kempner, the epitome of an orthorexic diet. Again, it no doubt results in weight loss, but I doubt it improves CO2 production and whatnot in the long run. There was a vegan dude I was briefly listening to on youtube and he seemed pretty intelligent and it actually got me briefly on a vegan diet. In one video tho he admits that "If I stop taking my supplements I'll drop to 200 ng/dL of testosterone within a year". THat's pretty much what told me this guy is full of BS LOL. Clearly its not the diet that is boosting his T levels, its his supplements lol.

I tried a pure sugar ( basically fruitarian diet) and it simply is not a sustainable diet for humans IMO. Sure it was difficult to gain weight, but I felt horrible, constant hunger, manic energy, zero libido, massive insomnia. Fun times.

According to Chris (and I do tend to agree) a very low fat simply is not a workable diet unless you're very lean and PUFA depleted, because then you don't need the SFA's to buffer against PUFA's anymore. Which I guess you basically said in your last sentence, so I agree t here.
 
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Ok, but then we get into the age old debate of being lean VS being healthy tho. Most fruitarians are not healthy in the long-term. And I'd wager most of them say "they can't tolerate protein and fat". IMO the pinnacle of health is when you can eat anything you want, in the quantities you want, and not get fat or feel bad (except perhaps in the short term from being stuffed lol). If you can't do this, you're not yet healthy. "Food intolerances" are not a thing I no longer believe, unless you have a legitimate food allergy and those are usually fatal. "Food intolerance" is simply a symptom of metabolic dysfunction and hypothyroidism.

Ah, walter kempner, the epitome of an orthorexic diet. Again, it no doubt results in weight loss, but I doubt it improves CO2 production and whatnot in the long run. There was a vegan dude I was briefly listening to on youtube and he seemed pretty intelligent and it actually got me briefly on a vegan diet. In one video tho he admits that "If I stop taking my supplements I'll drop to 200 ng/dL of testosterone within a year". THat's pretty much what told me this guy is full of BS LOL. Clearly its not the diet that is boosting his T levels, its his supplements lol.

I tried a pure sugar ( basically fruitarian diet) and it simply is not a sustainable diet for humans IMO. Sure it was difficult to gain weight, but I felt horrible, constant hunger, manic energy, zero libido, massive insomnia. Fun times.

According to Chris (and I do tend to agree) a very low fat simply is not a workable diet unless you're very lean and PUFA depleted, because then you don't need the SFA's to buffer against PUFA's anymore. Which I guess you basically said in your last sentence, so I agree t here.
Low protein/very low fat/ vegan diets are not healthy in the LONG run, I agree, but if one is in a very bad situation, then feeling less then ideal for a few months and then building a new "normal" state to be in when you feel like the weight is good, then I think it's worth it. And this won't be a starvation diet, so things like t3 levels won't be too low.

So you think eating PUFA-filled, gluten-filled foods everyday for lunch and not suffereing any side effects is what health is? I really disaggre with that. There is overwhelming data showing that PUFAs block thyroid funtion through multiple mechanisms. Unless you can twist the laws of physics and change the way the actual human physiology works, then, no, you can't eat anything and expect to not have bad consequences.

Lol, then there are no healthy human beings in the entire planet, since all it takes to make a healthy person unhealthy is changing their environment: take an indigenous person who was eating tubers, fruits, fish, etc. and put them in an office for 8 hours everyday without any sunlight and give them potato chips fried in soybean oil and watch what happens: they go from lean, healthy, happy and energetic to fat, sick, miserable and lazy people.

Why would a very high carb diet not be conducive to high CO2 production, especially with ample amounts of sucrose?

Doesn't sound much more orthorexic than PUFA avoidance. Kempner just stipulated a goal and then eliminated the foods that didn't fit into the rules. And it's not like it's a diet that people should follow for life, it's more like a therapeutic period where people could regenerate their damaged tissues.

Being vegan and eating a high carb/calorically-sufficient diet are very different things. Relatively very few vegans eat a very high carb diet, aside from durianrider, which is one of the only people who have the knowledge and courage to actually speak out against the huge contradictions among the vegan community. Dr. Greger is the stereotypical vegan, that is, an undernourished, calorie-deficient vegan who doesn't even have muscle. Most vegans who are "healthy" don't get enough calories, because they think that refined carbs are bad, but it's these vegans who claim that they have low energy or low hormones. Of course they don't have vitality, how could they, if they barely eat 2000 calories a day?

According to haidut, if you do a very low fat diet, it's mostly the muscles who will burn the PUFA, so doing a 1 month very low fat diet could clear you up from excessive PUFA, and then a low fat diet could work. Taurine and vitamin E would protect the cells from PUFA during depletion.

At the end of my previous post, I was referring more to not losing too much weight, which is a real danger with fruit/starch based diets. But yes, if you're lean, then stressful events won't make you liberate much PUFA into the serum, so you could eat less SFAs/MUFAs if you wanted to.
 

Cirion

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I'm not sure where in my post I ever suggest eating PUFA filled processed foods? I'm just saying a rice and fruit diet is woefully inadequate in many vitamins and minerals, and protein for that matter.

I suppose I have a strong opinion of veganism because I already tried it for a couple of months to no long-term benefit. I didn't lose weight, I didn't lose PUFA's, nothing changed in my health in the long term, was a complete waste of time, although I did find it seemed to temporarily boost my waking temps and pulses, I still couldn't lose any fat long term on it. Then again, no diet works for me, so ... tried it all at this point... so there's that =P -- and before you ask I did eat lots of calories (upwards of 4000 a day) on this experiment.

Anyway, you need protein to properly generate CO2 from sugar. I believe it was Ray who said that (but I could be wrong). I don't think you can regenerate tissues without protein, that's the problem too. The liver needs protein to detox, for example. I don't think you can clear PUFA's in one month at least without going to extremes (Low calorie and low fat, maybe limiting calories to 2000 a day and only from sugar) and maybe adding other things like caffeine for good measure. I know the thread you posted on that. But again I tried very low fat for a couple of solid months, it didn't work for me. It might have worked better if I lowered my calories to let's say 3000 from 4,000, but I noticed extreme toxicity symptoms when calories dropped below 4000 (I guess the PUFA's?). How does one go through PUFA detox and still function for work? If I didn't have to function mentally for work then I could stomach being bedridden from PUFA detox symptoms but as it stands, I'm screwed because t here is no way to function mentally for my job and also detox from PUFA's which, the symptoms from it are so bad it makes me suicidal/bipolar basically.

I'm still not convinced with Vitamin E protecting against PUFA either. If you have 100,000 grams of PUFA in your body fat, how is taking 2 gram of vitamin E (Which Haidut considers to be a "High dosage") gonna buffer against that deluge? It's like trying to use a single sandbag to stop the flow of an entire river. Good luck! 2 gram of vitamin E just might be enough to offset the problem of eating 2 gram of PUFA in your diet that day, but that's about it.
 
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I'm not sure where in my post I ever suggest eating PUFA filled processed foods?
Right here:
IMO the pinnacle of health is when you can eat anything you want, in the quantities you want, and not get fat or feel bad (except perhaps in the short term from being stuffed lol)
"Anything you want" can be ground beef cooked in coconut oil, lean chicken breast with orange juice, or PUFA-filled foods, or anything.
I'm just saying a rice and fruit diet is woefully inadequate in many vitamins and minerals, and protein for that matter.
I agree, but temporarily, I think it could be a weapon against some very disturbing diseases. Long term, the nutrient deficiencies would kick in, yes.
I suppose I have a strong opinion of veganism because I already tried it for a couple of months to no long-term benefit. I didn't lose weight, I didn't lose PUFA's, nothing changed in my health in the long term, was a complete waste of time, although I did find it seemed to temporarily boost my waking temps and pulses, I still couldn't lose any fat long term on it. Then again, no diet works for me, so ... tried it all at this point... so there's that =P -- and before you ask I did eat lots of calories (upwards of 4000 a day) on this experiment.

Anyway, you need protein to properly generate CO2 from sugar. I believe it was Ray who said that (but I could be wrong). I don't think you can regenerate tissues without protein, that's the problem too. The liver needs protein to detox, for example. I don't think you can clear PUFA's in one month at least without going to extremes (Low calorie and low fat, maybe limiting calories to 2000 a day and only from sugar) and maybe adding other things like caffeine for good measure. I know the thread you posted on that. But again I tried very low fat for a couple of solid months, it didn't work for me. It might have worked better if I lowered my calories to let's say 3000 from 4,000, but I noticed extreme toxicity symptoms when calories dropped below 4000 (I guess the PUFA's?). How does one go through PUFA detox and still function for work? If I didn't have to function mentally for work then I could stomach being bedridden from PUFA detox symptoms but as it stands, I'm screwed because t here is no way to function mentally for my job and also detox from PUFA's which, the symptoms from it are so bad it makes me suicidal/bipolar basically.

I'm still not convinced with Vitamin E protecting against PUFA either. If you have 100,000 grams of PUFA in your body fat, how is taking 2 gram of vitamin E (Which Haidut considers to be a "High dosage") gonna buffer against that deluge? It's like trying to use a single sandbag to stop the flow of an entire river. Good luck! 2 gram of vitamin E just might be enough to offset the problem of eating 2 gram of PUFA in your diet that day, but that's about it.
Have you seen this quote from a study haidut posted here a while ago?
"... adults generally have at least 1 kg of linoleate in body stores, more if they have more than 20% body fat."
Extrapolating this to your level of body fat, you can gauge how much PUFA you have stored in your tissues. When PUFAs are stored, they are more or less safe. Also, your tissues aren't going to release 1kg of PUFA into the bloodstream all at once, instead it's likely that it's going to release much less than that. I think there isn't even space for that much fat in the blood all at once. Do you have any study on the amount of vitamin E necessary to neutralize a certain amount of PUFA? I think haidut said somewhere around 200 iu is enough to neutralize a restaurant meal, which is probably more than 2 grams of PUFA.

What was your diet like when you went vegan? Were you very low fat?

Well, yes, the liver needs protein to funtion, and without protein, it's easier to get hypothyroid, but there is protein in a vegan diet, especially with the ketoacids, which lower ammonia. So you can heal your body even without a ton of protein, and, since carbs spare protein, eating a very high carb diet will make it easier for the lower protein ingestion to work. Plus, it's temporary.

Weren't you doing a very low fat diet a few months ago, but with skim milk? I think the milk should have been ommited, the results could have been better. Even Waremu, who is lean drinking lots of milk, got a little leaner during his no-milk experiment.

Yes, recovering health can be very time-consuming. I spent many years malnourished and very weak as a result. It took over 2 years of sleeping right, eating right, supplementing right, etc. to arrive where I am now. Currently I have good strength on my arms and wrists, and can do day-to-day activities easily. It took a lot patience, and I still can improve, but I've certainly come a long way. Maybe you can try to be deplete PUFA more on weekends or on days-off.
 

Cirion

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Right here:

"Anything you want" can be ground beef cooked in coconut oil, lean chicken breast with orange juice, or PUFA-filled foods, or anything.

I agree, but temporarily, I think it could be a weapon against some very disturbing diseases. Long term, the nutrient deficiencies would kick in, yes.

Have you seen this quote from a study haidut posted here a while ago?
"... adults generally have at least 1 kg of linoleate in body stores, more if they have more than 20% body fat."
Extrapolating this to your level of body fat, you can gauge how much PUFA you have stored in your tissues. When PUFAs are stored, they are more or less safe. Also, your tissues aren't going to release 1kg of PUFA into the bloodstream all at once, instead it's likely that it's going to release much less than that. I think there isn't even space for that much fat in the blood all at once. Do you have any study on the amount of vitamin E necessary to neutralize a certain amount of PUFA? I think haidut said somewhere around 200 iu is enough to neutralize a restaurant meal, which is probably more than 2 grams of PUFA.

What was your diet like when you went vegan? Were you very low fat?

Well, yes, the liver needs protein to funtion, and without protein, it's easier to get hypothyroid, but there is protein in a vegan diet, especially with the ketoacids, which lower ammonia. So you can heal your body even without a ton of protein, and, since carbs spare protein, eating a very high carb diet will make it easier for the lower protein ingestion to work. Plus, it's temporary.

Weren't you doing a very low fat diet a few months ago, but with skim milk? I think the milk should have been ommited, the results could have been better. Even Waremu, who is lean drinking lots of milk, got a little leaner during his no-milk experiment.

Yes, recovering health can be very time-consuming. I spent many years malnourished and very weak as a result. It took over 2 years of sleeping right, eating right, supplementing right, etc. to arrive where I am now. Currently I have good strength on my arms and wrists, and can do day-to-day activities easily. It took a lot patience, and I still can improve, but I've certainly come a long way. Maybe you can try to be deplete PUFA more on weekends or on days-off.

Yeah I do still think more or less someone healthy can eat whatever and be OK. Maybe not every meal, but definitely a single meal eating junk, or going out for alcohol now and then, shouldn't be a problem for a healthy individual. For example I dunno if you know Zachs who used to post here but he found after he FULLY recovered from hypothyroid that his metabolism was so on fire he could eat anything and get away with it. I'm not saying we should do that lol, I'm just saying it's a good marker to know if you're truly healed or if just one single meal sets you down a negative spiral again, and my long term goal is to be able to indulge now and then so that I can actually have a social life. Of course, that's down the road, and I don't mind being orthorexic for now.

I'm not sure how much 1 gram of VE can buffer against PUFA wise. I just took a wild guess to be honest. If you're right and only 200 IU is needed for a whole meal, then maybe that's not too bad. I do know Haidut has quoted the Schute brothers before and they gave people dosages up to close to 10 grams of vitamin E in one sitting. I was virtually zero fat yes. I did find it boosted my waking body temperatures to 98.6F on a fairly regular basis. I actually got a 7 day streak of 98.6F waking body temp virtually every day. So, maybe I will just go back to that, as it did kind of work. Even if it didn't make me lose much weight, at least I had cognitive functionality on it lol. Potato and gelatin were my protein sources essentially. IMO these are the two lowest inflammation proteins you can possibly eat. Gelatin has zero tryptophan and potato is as high quality as egg protein (Ray's words not mine) and as an added bonus, potatoes don't cause ammonia generation. If I combine this with Energin (B vitamins), choline supplementation etc (which I was NOT doing while on that experiment) maybe I'll see some good results. Maybe it might have helped if I had been consuming VE as well. Another thing I was not doing at the time.

What were your strategies to get to where you're at now?
 

Jem Oz

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I don't want to sound overly cynical or unkind, but to the people battling excess weight, how honest are you REALLY being about your food consumption? Figures are often reported here - "oh I only eat 2200 calories a day" - and I'm doubtful. Only you can know, but we all know that feeling when we're kidding ourselves.

It's an oft-reported thing: people significantly under reporting how much they eat, even by up to 25%.

Just sayin.
 
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I ate zero fat 3 or 4 times for PUFA depletion purposes and felt miserable.

I think that despite high sugar, free fatty acids are an issue when you are on very low/zero fat. If that is the case, then PUFAs enter your blood and cause you to feel bad and these probably depress metabolism and stop weight loss.

I've been losing a bit of fat recently and it's from improving my metabolism with a T3 experiment. I think metabolism is everything and free fatty acids can depress it and stall weight loss.
 
OP
iPeat

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I don't want to sound overly cynical or unkind, but to the people battling excess weight, how honest are you REALLY being about your food consumption? Figures are often reported here - "oh I only eat 2200 calories a day" - and I'm doubtful. Only you can know, but we all know that feeling when we're kidding ourselves.

It's an oft-reported thing: people significantly under reporting how much they eat, even by up to 25%.

Just sayin.


Not sure who you're referring to but I'm not restricting calories, nor do I plan on losing weight by restricting calories. The main question I'm posing is what would stop weight loss on a zero fat/high sugar diet.

There are a few answers I'm pondering and may experiment with (PUFA release, choline insufficiency, fatty liver, fructose overload, etc.).
 
OP
iPeat

iPeat

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I ate zero fat 3 or 4 times for PUFA depletion purposes and felt miserable.

I think that despite high sugar, free fatty acids are an issue when you are on very low/zero fat. If that is the case, then PUFAs enter your blood and cause you to feel bad and these probably depress metabolism and stop weight loss.

I've been losing a bit of fat recently and it's from improving my metabolism with a T3 experiment. I think metabolism is everything and free fatty acids can depress it and stall weight loss.

I actually feel ok on the zero fat diet, with the exception that I constantly feel hungry and an occasionally low blood sugar "feeling." Even without any weight loss, I may stick to the diet for awhile and see where it goes.

I recently did a t3 only experiment that didn't go so well. Do you add t4 or use t3 exclusively?
 

Mr. Sanders

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I don't want to sound overly cynical or unkind, but to the people battling excess weight, how honest are you REALLY being about your food consumption? Figures are often reported here - "oh I only eat 2200 calories a day" - and I'm doubtful. Only you can know, but we all know that feeling when we're kidding ourselves.

It's an oft-reported thing: people significantly under reporting how much they eat, even by up to 25%.

Just sayin.


^^^this.
 

Mr. Sanders

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I actually feel ok on the zero fat diet, with the exception that I constantly feel hungry and an occasionally low blood sugar "feeling." Even without any weight loss, I may stick to the diet for awhile and see where it goes.

I recently did a t3 only experiment that didn't go so well. Do you add t4 or use t3 exclusively?


I think this a case by case basis.
Very low fat brought me back from the dead and dropped 40 pounds
My metrics of weight, bf, temp, pulse, mood, etc are never ever better than when a max of 10% of my cals are from fat.
Frankly its hard to argue with the reality of the randle cycle and then lean that up against the reality of people who do not
mobilize/utilize sugar well. Low fat works far more often than it doesn't.
I'm not saying its for everyone but it is a high percentage solution for people who are fat and struggling.
 
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I think lowish fat is good but ultra low or no fat is only for a short time, like less than a week. Dr. Peat has said many times that saturated fats are helpful for digestion.
 

Mr. Sanders

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I think lowish fat is good but ultra low or no fat is only for a short time, like less than a week. Dr. Peat has said many times that saturated fats are helpful for digestion.

low/ultra low are just undefined terms.
I didn't say no fat and Ray has never advocated a diet with extreme amounts of fats.
He repeatedly says "a little ice cream before bed" or "a small amount of fatwith starch" or "a tablespoon or two of coconut oil"
If you simply read his work at 150g of protein and 300g of carbohydrate (losely interpreted) he's getting the lions share of his cals from non fat sources.
10% of your cals from saturated fat is more than enough. Certainly in excess of 20% is too much.
I'm not saying this is for everyone but using undefined terms and associating them with absolutes robs people of the ability to
try things. 10% is plenty. 20% is max. Again... randle cycle and a community of people who suck at sugar mobilization dictates this
at least as a starting point for those struggling. Very very few people in western culture suffering from a lack of fat consumption.

One of the things I like least about this forum is every opportunity is shut down by undefined terms and obscure recommendations.
Ideas are for people to try not to try to disprove before they're ever attempted. Look around this forum and you'll see countless people struggling
for YEARS without resolution. Implementation and experimentation is their only option.

for the record @ecstatichamster I am not singling you out, I'm just making an observation of something that seems extremely counter productive
on this forum. If it wasn't for eating 5-10% of my cals from fat I'd be dead full stop. As I've gotten healthier its moved to 8-12% daily, 10 on avg.
More is counterproductive in my n=1. I only wish it was where I started, it would have saved me at least 3 years of misery. Like I said, its the most logical place to begin. It doesn't have to be a life long commitment.
 

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