Has Anyone Tried Raising Testosterone Without Raising Dht?

LegendeLic

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I think I solved my puzzle. I read a lot in the forum since about 6 months. Tried mostly diet and supplement routes. And until now some very minimal approaches (only 1-2 drops a day oral or dermal) with progesterone, 5a-dhp and cypro.

Before I pushed my dht leves to high via creatine since then my libido is wasted. Also did low carb and intermittent fasting. So stress brought up dht and T down.
I figures this also because, i got my hormones tested several times and the doctors say T is normal and also they don't look at DHT. I will go to a specialist as well to confirm my theory with another test soon.

My libido I goes up when i drank alcohol the night before. Which is what I've read in this forum before. so it also might be that the allopregnanolone pathway is wased and i should try more with 5adhp. Thing is i take 1 drop only and my balls hurt/feel pressure.

So following my thoughts and what I've tried before would like to try the question in the thread title naturally before seeing the specialist.
I know there is a testboost protocol from haidut with protein, zinc, magnesium, b6, vit e. I am more or less trying that right now. It seems to have somewhat postive impact on my overall health but not necessarily on the libido department per se until now.

Any ideas about adaptation? Not using vit E that much? Any other ideas? I dont want to block dht, i just dont want it to go up with the t levels. If some thread with similar topic exists...i searched the forum a lot and didn't really find something...

Lysine seems to help somewhat.

red ginseng is on my radar right now (DIM, Calcium-d-glucarate, Quercitin might be options too?)

other side notes: had prostate problems since 18 years old (they were totally harmless but something was off). after using creatine i got prostatitis at the age of 27 years.
felt some libido improvement on saw palmetto+zinc+pumpkin seed combo, after the prostatitis...which i think did never heal properly. Now I know saw palmetto is practically poison and i dont use it anymore...although it halted my receeding hairline and improved libido somewhat.
 
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LegendeLic

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Another option would be that the solution could be more downstream. Metabolites of DHT and other androgens could be out of balance?! Does anyone know what could be blood tested in the more downstream hormones?
 

LegendeLic

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I would stop taking anything and just eat well for a year.

I thought about that quite a bit, but it's not that easy ... "doing nothing". since at least since applying the zinc, magnesium, b6, vit e combo i regained morning woods - which means for me something there is good for me in some way at least.

Are you talking from experience? What from your point of view is eating well? high carb/medium protein/low fat? peat style (OJ, coffee - can't really do it, coke, milk, cheese, meat, liver, fruti di mare)?
 
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I thought about that quite a bit, but it's not that easy ... "doing nothing". since at least since applying the zinc, magnesium, b6, vit e combo i regained morning woods - which means for me something there is good for me in some way at least.

Are you talking from experience? What from your point of view is eating well? high carb/medium protein/low fat? peat style (OJ, coffee - can't really do it, coke, milk, cheese, meat, liver, fruti di mare)?

I am talking from experience.

All those supplements just will get you into trouble.

I do take magnesium and calcium sometimes. And fat soluble vitamins. Charcoal. And progesterone, and a little Pansterone. I mean, a little.

Mostly the rest of it is diet. PUFA depletion is to me the most beneficial thing I did (I assume I did it). My temperatures bounced up into the 98.5 or so range, from 96 or 97, and I feel really good.

I have always had high T. But I find that the monkeying around with things like mushrooms and more than a little DHEA etc. just really messes me up.
 

LegendeLic

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ok, thank you ecstatichamster!

I think for me it's just really my stress response. I tried red ginsing in 100mg doses max. 200mg a day and I feel way less stressed and everything else gets better as well.
And it's weird as well, I didn't even recognize one could that way, which means I kind of adjusted to that high level of stress and it felt kind of normal too me except the health problems that came with it.
So I guess I will focus on diet and reducing stress and good sleep.
Unfortunately my doc put me on some cortisone spray for the nose and I guess that put off my sleep. So I will use some supplements and won't use that spray again to repair my sleep at first.

Antihistamines - desloratadine, cypro, theanine
+
lysine and red ginseng
+
mag n zinc

edit: okay - although red ginseng made me feel good... it seems that it contributes to shingles via NO ... so I can't do that. damn messed up state.

edit2: got to add in aspirin again. maybe the thread title and forum area should be changed, since it is clearly not about raising t and dht but more about lowering inflammation, cortisol, histamine.
 
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LegendeLic

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short update:
still tapping in the dark...was at the specialist today, he took blood and i should know the blood results in about 10 days. And I am also quite curios what he suggest is messed up.

meanwhile I am mainly focusing on diet (reducing starch some more and increasing fructose, also low fat and appropriate protein) and ginseng with the zinc + magnesium + vitE and b-vitamine combo with some antihistamines mainly desloratadine due to seasonal allergies.
I am somewhat wondering if maybe in my case SHBG and blood sugar plays a role. The above combo should address that. Also I have significant more morning would when on that combo as to when I don't use that supplements. Higher b-vitamines added to the combo have not been tested yet.

some corrections from the above - aspirin somehow makes me feel worse at the moment, also the cortisone spray seems not to influence my sleep, but something does.
+ forget the ginsing - shingles part...
 
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LegendeLic

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So after reading more and more and the "Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome"-Thread more thoroughly. it makes perfect sense. even my thread title, that I don't want to raise dht peripheral but I also don't want to raise T peripheral. Didn't know that at the start of the thread. But the circle is somewhat closing.

It makes sense since Vit E, Aspirin and Creatine don't really make me feel better but 5adhp,Niacinamide+Coffee do.
Also explains why alcohol helps...it's not just because of the estrogen. Alcohol seems to stimulate neurosteroids according to a study in the "thoughts on 5ar and post finasteride Syndrome". still am not gonna go down that road.

Since I presume, that my results at the doc will be all fine since it's blood serum. I wonder what I should tell him about my thoughts on neurosteroids?

What I am still wondering about is Ginseng and Tribulus... are those good herbs or bad?
Ginseng seems to be bad for my case...since it lowers the neurosteroids in brain? -->
Repeated Administration of Korea Red Ginseng Extract Increases Non-Rapid Eye Movement Sleep via GABAAergic Systems
Moreover, the levels of both α- and β-subunits of the γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)A receptor were reduced in the hypothalamus of the RGE-treated groups.

also Influence of ginsenoside Rb1 on brain neurosteroid during acute immobilization stress seems like those scientists have the stress thing backwards?
Acute immobilization stress induced an increase in the THP and DHP concentration in the frontal cortex and cerebellum. When Rbl was administered orally prior to immobilization stress, the THP level in the frontal cortex and cerebellum was significantly lower than that in the stressed animals not given Rbl.

So I am off Ginseng for now.
Tribulus doesn't really effect GABA or neurosteriods so it seems to be save also it doesn't seem to raise peripheral T and DHT.

that's one amazing study... Upregulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis as a pharmacological strategy to improve behavioral deficits in a putative mouse model of PTSD might have been here already.

Will try trib 300mg + 2 drops 5adhp + 1 drop progesterone for sleep today and hope that i can sleep longer than 6h.
 

RisingSun

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As Ecstatichamster said, drop everything and eat right.

Your fear and anxiety will probably go away.
 

LegendeLic

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k I guess I really have to drop everything. sleep was the worst since ever. thank you for telling me gain... it's seems like for me it is really hard to don't take anything.
 

LegendeLic

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Results are in...
free T4 = 1.14ng/dl (0.89 - 1.76)
T3 whole = 132 ng/dl (60.0 - 181.0)
TSH basal = 1.71 µU/ml (0.4 - 4.0)

LH = 4.0 mU/ml (1.5-9.3)
FSH = 4.2 mU/ml (1.5-20.4)
Prolactin 5.8ng/ml (2.5-17.0)

E2 = 31.8 pg/ml (11.9 - 39.8)
T = 4.28 ng/ml (1.65-7.54)

According to the specialist everything hormonal seems fine.

Still I don't have any libido so something in the brain isn't working like it should. Will get diagnosed probably in a week or so... until then focus will be on diet incl. caffeine and niacinamide. I seem to have problem with milk so I'll try just half the amount of milk and also non at all to see if things get better.
Probably in a monthn or so I can do a blood test again.
 

RisingSun

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Results are in...
free T4 = 1.14ng/dl (0.89 - 1.76)
T3 whole = 132 ng/dl (60.0 - 181.0)
TSH basal = 1.71 µU/ml (0.4 - 4.0)

LH = 4.0 mU/ml (1.5-9.3)
FSH = 4.2 mU/ml (1.5-20.4)
Prolactin 5.8ng/ml (2.5-17.0)

E2 = 31.8 pg/ml (11.9 - 39.8)
T = 4.28 ng/ml (1.65-7.54)

According to the specialist everything hormonal seems fine.

Still I don't have any libido so something in the brain isn't working like it should. Will get diagnosed probably in a week or so... until then focus will be on diet incl. caffeine and niacinamide. I seem to have problem with milk so I'll try just half the amount of milk and also non at all to see if things get better.
Probably in a monthn or so I can do a blood test again.


Do you take zinc?
 

LegendeLic

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at the moment 15mg daily. why?
i know before i said i stop everything but I have taken double or more than double so between 30 and 50mg. so i thought going back to 15mg and let s see how i feel.
 

benaoao

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Well the T3 is rather good but free T3 is closer to the bottom of the range so either TBG or rT3 are high. Anyhow, I’d start eating in a thyroid friendly way. Baby aspirin is great, coconut will help too.

Your sensitivity to LH isn’t optimal, a diet rich in antioxidants will help, alongside red light and/or topical vitamin D, 100iu vitamin E, 30mg of zinc, maybe 600mg of NAC.
 
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felt some libido improvement on saw palmetto+zinc+pumpkin seed combo, after the prostatitis...
So what happenend here?
extrapolate it..
you use a 5AR inhibitors SP, zinc = 5AR, pumpkin = magnesium & zinc, fibers, also 5AR.
...
when tissue estrogen is dominant, estrogen will keep converting androgens into estrogens.
'DHT <-> estradiol', gives prostate problems.

So zinc helped because it reduces T conversion into DHT -> into estradiol. But keeps T low.
Therefore you need to shift estrogen towards Testosterone dominance, via 5AR + Estrogen knock off + Aromatase Inhibitor.
cholesterol/pregnenolone, zinc, 5a-DHP, some AI of your choice.

edit: increase T via pregnenolone ->DHEA-> T
oh and using 5AR will keep more Progesterone around to oppose the estrogens
 
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..and as you can see on the pic, even though 5AR is inhibited, eventually DHT will go up via 3a-diol ->DHT.

Probably your Progesterone is pretty low and is shunt into mineralocorticoids, aldosterone. And this gives low libido.
But you can profit from a little Licorice root tea trick, coz it mimic mineralocorticoids and supports adrenaline and cortisol function, this prevents Prog conversion and leaves more progestrone in the system, and may even boost libido.
 

benaoao

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The conversion from T to DHT is a non issue because of the alternative conversion from 5aDione to DHT and the “pre-procarcinogen” backdoor conversion from 3aDiol to DHT.

Dihydrotestosterone synthesis bypasses testosterone to drive castration-resistant prostate cancer

The issue isn’t really DHT metabolism, since it is a mediator of inflammation the issue is (as always?) dietary and lifestyle related. Taking 5ar inhibitors is blaming firemen for the fire and thinking the firemen are doing a poor job therefore no more firemen.

The irony is that indeed from my point of view; the firemen aren’t doing a great job (because this whole stress situation is foreign to the body and it merely does its best with DHT,estrogens,NO,cytokines,PUFAs,cortisol,prolactin et al.) but long term it’s better than nothing... unless one is cool with taking loads of pills, feeling like trash, and going on the highway to cancer.

I’d much rather focus on the thyroid and the cell energy which are the unseen part of the iceberg so to speak, rather than the inflammatory symptoms (the visible tip that medicine only cares about)

I’m all about metaphores these days.
 

LegendeLic

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okay, well.... my stress is mostly in/from the head it seems, after talking with the expert doctor and diagnosis again.

I really like all your input!!! I think a lot of stress reducing substances did help me, also the diet and red light.
So I can rather see that stuff from benaoao working. nonetheless I wouldn't touch anything anymore what is blocking the 5ar.
I've been put on Trazodone and Tadalafil for now. And there will be a check up in 3 weeks. For those 3 weeks I will try to destress as good as possible so now coffee or so as well. Just K2 very low dosish and diet.
 
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okay, well.... my stress is mostly in/from the head it seems, after talking with the expert doctor and diagnosis again.

I really like all your input!!! I think a lot of stress reducing substances did help me, also the diet and red light.
So I can rather see that stuff from benaoao working. nonetheless I wouldn't touch anything anymore what is blocking the 5ar.
I've been put on Trazodone and Tadalafil for now. And there will be a check up in 3 weeks. For those 3 weeks I will try to destress as good as possible so now coffee or so as well. Just K2 very low dosish and diet.
So in the beginning you were having progress with 5AR inhibitors that "reduce DHT" like zinc and therefore androgen tissue-conversions into estrogens, but now you are afraid of it, because you think it, DHT causes prostate cancer? makes no sense.
Is it not estrogens that cause prostate cancer anymore?
 
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