Huge Estrogen Suppression In Response To TRT

[tanneron]

Recently had blood work done and I was shocked to see that my estrogen had fallen below the level considered "unsafe" for men. I've struggled for several years to get my testosterone up, and here's a snapshot (total testosterone and estradiol):

8/2011
T - 530 [300-890]

8/2012
T - 400 [300-890]
E - 29 [<40]

1/2013
T - 208 [300-890]
E - 27

3/2013
T - 229 [291-739]

8/2013
T - 256.7 [175-781]

4/2015
T - 399 [300-890]
E - 27

4/2017
T - 427 [300-890]
E - <5 [26-61]

For the past five months I've been on 1% testosterone cream. (In the past I've also tried 1.62% Androgel and 2% cream.) I've also been regularly using a pansterone, 11-Keto DHT, androsterone, ritanserin, lisuride, and from time to time progest-E. I do believe I'm experiencing classic symptoms of very low estrogen (zero libido, ED, no morning wood, fatigue, increased abdominal fat, sexual dysfunction). My doctor said the higher T level now has suppressed my estrogen. However, my T levels plummeted from 2012 to 2013 without a corresponding decrease of increase in estradiol, and my T levels have only gone up incrementally between 2015 and 2017 resulting in a huge decrease. His comment doesn't make any sense to me.

My first thought is that some of these liquid supplements have suppressed my estrogen too far. The question is which one? I was taking a vitamin E but have stopped doing that.

I've read that the best way to increase estrogen is to increase testosterone. I'll be asking my doctor to script a 2% cream now, but maybe I should go up to 3%? If an increase in testosterone can't explain this huge suppression of estrogen, then what could be the cause? I've read that an estradiol level below 10 pg/mL is not good for men.

 

[encerent]

Everything you're taking powerfully lowers estrogen on its own, so what did you expect?

 

[schultz]

I would have guessed based off the title that you were using transdermal testosterone and having some of it turn in DHT and therefore suppressing estrogen.

It turns out you are using transdermal test but based on your symptoms I am not so sure you have elevated DHT. I posted a study on another thread recently showing that men with estradiol levels averaged at 1.7 pg/ml for 2 years, but who also had 10 times the DHT, had no significant change in libido.

It's hard to say what is causing the symptoms you're having since you take a lot of supplements. A lot of people on the forum talk about having low estrogen and it causing all these symptoms, but I seriously doubt this is the case for the majority of these people. You do however have bloodwork showing low estrogen, so I could be wrong. Also the study I mentioned above was on middle aged men which could somehow make it less applicable to younger males, though I'm not sure why (they just mentioned this in the study as being a possibility). They cite another study done on younger males where they were given an AI (I believe) to produce low estrogen levels and the libido fell. Perhaps it's not the low estrogen in this latter case, but something to do with the AI? Maybe the AI is causing some sort of other damage unrelated to estrogen.

 

[tallglass13]

@tanneron, How would you describe your head hair? interesting since many blame estrogen for the baldness .

 

[tanneron]

@tanneron, How would you describe your head hair? interesting since many blame estrogen for the baldness .

Fairly thin on top now. Started thinning years ago, before I had testosterone issues.

 

[Wagner83]

Androsterone and 11-keto-dht are super powerful to lower estrogens.

 

[ddjd]

why would lower estrogen increase abdominal fat?

 

[ddjd]

Recently had blood work done and I was shocked to see that my estrogen had fallen below the level considered "unsafe" for men. I've struggled for several years to get my testosterone up, and here's a snapshot (total testosterone and estradiol):

8/2011
T - 530 [300-890]

8/2012
T - 400 [300-890]
E - 29 [<40]

1/2013
T - 208 [300-890]
E - 27

3/2013
T - 229 [291-739]

8/2013
T - 256.7 [175-781]

4/2015
T - 399 [300-890]
E - 27

4/2017
T - 427 [300-890]
E - <5 [26-61]

For the past five months I've been on 1% testosterone cream. (In the past I've also tried 1.62% Androgel and 2% cream.) I've also been regularly using a pansterone, 11-Keto DHT, androsterone, ritanserin, lisuride, and from time to time progest-E. I do believe I'm experiencing classic symptoms of very low estrogen (zero libido, ED, no morning wood, fatigue, increased abdominal fat, sexual dysfunction). My doctor said the higher T level now has suppressed my estrogen. However, my T levels plummeted from 2012 to 2013 without a corresponding decrease of increase in estradiol, and my T levels have only gone up incrementally between 2015 and 2017 resulting in a huge decrease. His comment doesn't make any sense to me.

My first thought is that some of these liquid supplements have suppressed my estrogen too far. The question is which one? I was taking a vitamin E but have stopped doing that.

I've read that the best way to increase estrogen is to increase testosterone. I'll be asking my doctor to script a 2% cream now, but maybe I should go up to 3%? If an increase in testosterone can't explain this huge suppression of estrogen, then what could be the cause? I've read that an estradiol level below 10 pg/mL is not good for men.

what are the absolute worst side effects of low estrogen?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

what are the absolute worst side effects of low estrogen?

In my case: NON-stop coughing, and random joint and bone pain all over the body. Difficult to maintain an erection, almost impossible to orgasm. I took a single letrozole pill and the effects lasted for almost 2 weeks. That was NOT a fun time. I think a lot of people here are on some kind of wild-goose chase of wanting to exterminate estrogen. You're not really going to do that without serious pharmaceuticals anyway, but even if you do, you will regret it, trust me. -Some- estrogen is definitely needed, and should only be considered a problem if it's too high. The blanket idea most people here have is that theirs is too high, for whatever reason, without any testing or lab results to prove it, and it's very easy to blame any and all manner of symptoms on estrogen, but very rarely is it actually substantiated by anything tangible. Whenever someone thinks estrogen is the source of all of their problems, I always suggest them a very simple thing; get a letrozole pill and take it. It blocks the aromatase enzyme completely for many days, and will leave you with undetectable estrogen. You will be begging to have it back.

 

[ddjd]

In my case: NON-stop coughing, and random joint and bone pain all over the body. Difficult to maintain an erection, almost impossible to orgasm. I took a single letrozole pill and the effects lasted for almost 2 weeks. That was NOT a fun time. I think a lot of people here are on some kind of wild-goose chase of wanting to exterminate estrogen. You're not really going to do that without serious pharmaceuticals anyway, but even if you do, you will regret it, trust me. -Some- estrogen is definitely needed, and should only be considered a problem if it's too high. The blanket idea most people here have is that theirs is too high, for whatever reason, without any testing or lab results to prove it, and it's very easy to blame any and all manner of symptoms on estrogen, but very rarely is it actually substantiated by anything tangible. Whenever someone thinks estrogen is the source of all of their problems, I always suggest them a very simple thing; get a letrozole pill and take it. It blocks the aromatase enzyme completely for many days, and will leave you with undetectable estrogen. You will be begging to have it back.

The only AI I'm going to try is Exemestane/aromasin. And when I'll do I'll take 1/8 pill to start. What were you thinking taking a whole one

 

[Anders86]

What about focusing/balancing more with mitochondrial health? Vitamin K, MB, B's etc.

 

[nbznj]

as someone who used to have T in the 800's and e2 in the single digits naturally, I think the issue could be a poor liver function. Health was at its worst when my cholesterol was too high. I see a lot of people saying cholesterol isn't a problem because the CVD myth has been debunked, fair enough - my point is cholesterol is too high because of a reason that has to be identified.

The worst sides for me were:
1) mood
2) sexual dysfunction
3) joints, skin, hair everything dry
4) poor energy, low muscle strength

What's weird is that on TRT those problems all disappeared. Shooting for T in the 700s and e2 will naturally be around 30 pg/ml. If I want a higher T level I need to add some arimidex to the trt which may or may not defeat the purpose of staying as effortless as possible (but I do like a T in the low 1000)

@Joeyd: don't start aromasin as an AI. It's a suicidal inhibitor, which may leave you just like the other user - e2 too low. It's NOT fun. Arimidex is a very easy way to control e2. I'd say 0.25mg for every 100mg is sufficient, may cause borderline low e2 but nothing that lasts more than a day. Take arimidex on injection day.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

The only AI I'm going to try is Exemestane/aromasin. And when I'll do I'll take 1/8 pill to start. What were you thinking taking a whole one

I actually did a liquid extract where I diluted the 2.5 mg pill into a 0.25 mg/ml suspension, and I took it one ml from a dropper. That is the best part.

I don't even want to think what would happen from taking a whole pill.

 

[inurendotoxin]

I actually did a liquid extract where I diluted the 2.5 mg pill into a 0.25 mg/ml suspension, and I took it one ml from a dropper. That is the best part.

What was the worst part?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

What was the worst part?

Non-stop coughing, bone and joint pains shooting throughout my body, zero libido for 2 weeks.