Proviron Is Curing My PFS Symptoms But Need Some Help

[Sexypizza]

Hey guys,

I have PFS from using Dutasteride for 2 years. I've recently been experimenting with Proviron (Oral DHT) and it seems to be reversing my symptoms but also giving me testicular ache.

I stopped taking Dutasteride about a year and a half ago. I crashed not too long after stopping . My main symptoms are.

• Low thyroid (TSH was 24 for a while had to take T4, but I'm kind of ok now)
• High estrogen (was 40 now its 22)
• Borderline high Prolactin (normal now after peating)
• memory problems, weight gain, bloating and acid reflux (mostly gone now)
• slightly below average testosterone levels for my age (25)
• erectile dysfunction, low libido, low seamen, shrinking and numb penis (these are the main symptoms that unfortunately still remain)

Overall things have gotten better since I first quit the drug last year and since I started peating. Along with a peat diet there are other things that I have tried like:

1- I took T4 to increase my thyroid hormones, unfortunately T3 is not available where I live (middle east) so I had to make do with this. It successfully brought my TSH to normal levels but gave me intense anxiety and chest pain. my thyroid levels are better now but still sluggish (TSH is hovering around 5). it didn't really do much with my sexual symptoms though.

2- I tried taking Sustanon 250 (testosterone injection) I only took one shot 250ml which was probably too much. it worked for a couple of days, increased my libido intensely, but then it stopped working because I think most of it was being converted to estrogen. It made my nipples hurt all the time and gave me really bad gas and bloating along with joint pain and it shrunk my testicles for a while.

3- 5mg DHEA, this helped a bit and gave me no side effects, but the benefits seem to have plateaued.


A couple of days ago I started experimenting with low doses of Oral DHT Proviron. I only took it for 3 days. I read some scientific studies that said Proviron in doses below 100 mg does not cause suppression of androgens but I still wanted to be on the safe side so I took only half a pill 12.5 mg.

The first day I didn't really notice anything but the second day the effects kicked in.

Although not completely, it did reverse all of my major PFS symptoms. Erection and the size of the penis improved, Libido increased, seamen volume increased and it improved my mood. but then my testicles began aching, it was the same feeling from when I got shutdown from taking testosterone. So the next day I lowered the dose even more 3.5mg

I was surprised I was still getting benefits even with such a low dose but they were more mild. Unfortunately the aching was still there although that was more mild too. I decided then that I would stop taking proviron in case I get shutdown. I was surprised that the size of my testicles at that time actually seem to have gotten bigger instead of smaller, so I'm not sure what that means. Could that mean that I'm not getting shutdown?

Its been 2 days since I stopped Proviron, the benefits are gone now, and the aching is gone too although I still get bits of it every now and then.


I'm not sure where to go from here, and this is why I'm posting this thread.
I'm not entirely sure whether Proviron is shutting me down or not, and whether or not its a good idea to keep taking it. It definitely was working for me though.

My hesitant plan now is to:

• Find some T3 from abroad and take that to improve my thyroid production.
• Find a way to keep taking Proviron without getting shutdown, perhaps by taking Hcg? although from what I understand Ray is not a fan of LH which Hcg increases.
• alternatively, bite the bullet and get on TRT in lower doses like 80ml to avoid estrogen and take proviron with that.
• Or take DHT reduced metabolites like Androsterone or 11-keto DHT to avoid shutdown.

Sorry for the long post.
Any guidance would be appreciated.

 

[coppersocks]

Whilst I can't answer all of your questions I would point you towards Ideal labs Tyronene for t3 if you want to do some research.
Also I would highly recommend not going the TRT route in dealing with PFS, I've yet to see a case where the benefits stuck long term and often left the user much worse off than they were before. At best it will just bandaid over the underlying issues for a short term. If I were you I would keep up with healthy and prohormonal life style and diet and have a look at some of the PFS related threads on here and see if any of the suggestions or techniques of others works for you. PFS seems to be an umbrella term for a multitude of problems caused by taking fin so everyone is a bit different in terms of what helps or hinders their recovery.

 

[Iceman2016]

You have stated you are 25. Do you want to have children at some point? For most people, TRT is a long term permanent solution to be considered only after they have exhausted all other options. TRT will have a contraceptive effect and make you unable to have children.

Just thought you should know in case you weren't aware.

 

[Constatine]

I've heard that topical DHT on the testicles in very low doses (around 5mg) is a much safer and very effective method.

 

[Miggie]

The reason why your libido fluctuates on sustanon is because it has 4 different testosteron esters. I don't know how often you shot sustanon but its probably best to shoot it in 3 divided doses for more stable bloodlevels

 

[Sexypizza]

for anyone still reading. I tried taking proviron again for about a week. I took a higher dose this time 25mg sometimes twice a day just to see what happens. it didn't take long, a few days into taking it I was not able to maintain an erection at all and libido plummeted even further than it already was, after quitting proviron it took about a week and a half or so until I went back to normal PFS libido.

I also had testicle pain again although more mild this time around.

I don't recommend using it.

 

[sladerunner69]

for anyone still reading. I tried taking proviron again for about a week. I took a higher dose this time 25mg sometimes twice a day just to see what happens. it didn't take long, a few days into taking it I was not able to maintain an erection at all and libido plummeted even further than it already was, after quitting proviron it took about a week and a half or so until I went back to normal PFS libido.

I also had testicle pain again although more mild this time around.

I don't recommend using it.

DHT doesn't work for us PFS guys. There remain a couple good theories for why this is. One is that since progesterone production is down, that there isn't enough progesterone >estrogen/cortisol conversion required to "sensitize" DHT, as these stress hormones actually provide a signal to reactivate the dht molecule. Because DHT itself will have a supressie effect on these hormones, the correct method in this case would be to gradually improve DHT sensitivity through weight training and doing things that minorly supress 5ar, such as eating brown rice or tomatoes (lycopene) every other day.

Another idea is that there are 5ar types 1,2 and 3, and in the peripheral nervous system and skeletal muscle we find mainly types 1&3, but in the Central Nervous System is type 2. These different types of 5ar seem to actually oppose each other, so increasing DHT/ testosterone, androgens in the periphery will actually lead to suppression of 5ar in the Brain and Spine... This theory seems a bit more speculative to me because I ahven't seen an abundance of evidence to account for it. However, lowering my androgens slightly lead to an improvement of my symptoms. Taking a combination of preg/ dhea /progesterone and androsterone also seems to be more thorough and effective then any of these hormones on their own, and taking progesterone or andro on its own lowerred my libido and made me tired. It is a balance between these interacting pathways that must be achieved, I think.

 

[lampofred]

Has anyone tried taking high-dose gelatin, taurine, niacinamide, coffee, and thyroid for PFS? I don't have the issue, but if the problem seems to be with 5ar and GABA, those supplements may be helpful (along with a great diet of course).

 

[Sexypizza]

Has anyone tried taking high-dose gelatin, taurine, niacinamide, coffee, and thyroid for PFS? I don't have the issue, but if the problem seems to be with 5ar and GABA, those supplements may be helpful (along with a great diet of course).

I'm currently trying T3/T4 but I seem to have a resistance to thyroid hormones for some reason.

I contacted Ray and he said that "if thyroid is low (or reverse T3 is high), testosterone is likely to be converted partly to estrogen rather than DHT." Which I think is actually the heart of the issue with PFS.

Finasteride/Dutasteride not only lowers DHT but also ends up decreasing our metabolism in such a way that our testosterone does not convert to DHT as much as it used to but rather to estrogen/prolactin which is why we end up with erectile dysfunction.

I did some thyroid tests not long after having PFS and my TSH was 24! so it kind of confirms my suspicion. This is why in my opinion Testosterone replacement does not solve PFS it simply gets converted to more estrogen which makes everything worse.

The problem with me though is that even taking T3/T4 does not seem to improve my metabolism. It improves my blood tests but my pulse and temperature remains low. My guess is that I have some sort of thyroid hormone resistance and that I need to take higher doses.

I took 60 or so mcg of T3 yesterday and my temp/pulse didn't move at all.

 

[Pointless]

I'm of the belief that if something works for a day and then causes side effects if you continue taking it, take it in one day cycles.

Right now I do:
Day 1: caffeine, cortinon
Day 2: panquinone, dht, androstenone
Day 3: thyroid, gonadin

Metabolic boost, lower inflammation, ergogenic effects, libido increase with minimal side effects like joint pain, lower temps, fatigue, erectile dysfunction, irritability, etc.

 

[Sexypizza]

I'm of the belief that if something works for a day and then causes side effects if you continue taking it, take it in one day cycles.

Right now I do:
Day 1: caffeine, cortinon
Day 2: panquinone, dht, androstenone
Day 3: thyroid, gonadin

Metabolic boost, lower inflammation, ergogenic effects, libido increase with minimal side effects like joint pain, lower temps, fatigue, erectile dysfunction, irritability, etc.

I read some of your posts and you say that T3 had no effect on you for some time. did you ever manage to solve that issue? I'm going through the same thing.

 

[A.R]

I'm of the belief that if something works for a day and then causes side effects if you continue taking it, take it in one day cycles.

Right now I do:
Day 1: caffeine, cortinon
Day 2: panquinone, dht, androstenone
Day 3: thyroid, gonadin

Metabolic boost, lower inflammation, ergogenic effects, libido increase with minimal side effects like joint pain, lower temps, fatigue, erectile dysfunction, irritability, etc.

What would you say is the main difference in effects you've noticed between cortiNon and Pansterone (which I think you have used in the past)

Thank You

 

[Pointless]

For thyroid I cycle it every 3 days and take very little T4 if any. Hyperthyroidism seems to be impossible for me, much like you. Vitamin C and huge amounts of sugar will make thyroid effective for me. I take 500 mg vit. C twice a day and take 15 spoonfuls of sugar throughout the day.

 

[Pointless]

I don't like preg because it makes me giggly and my voice cracks. Cortinon helps with gut inflammation, and that's the biggest bonus for me.

 

[A.R]

I don't like preg because it makes me giggly and my voice cracks. Cortinon helps with gut inflammation, and that's the biggest bonus for me.

That's great news thanks. Would you say it's helped in flattening your stomach a bit? I'm presuming you take cortiNon topically

 

[Sexypizza]

For thyroid I cycle it every 3 days and take very little T4 if any. Hyperthyroidism seems to be impossible for me, much like you. Vitamin C and huge amounts of sugar will make thyroid effective for me. I take 500 mg vit. C twice a day and take 15 spoonfuls of sugar throughout the day.

Wow, how much T3 do you take usually?

 

[Pointless]

Yes 2 drops topically every 3 days. It helps bloating along with the other steroids.

I have been taking 1 tab cynomel and 1 grain NDT on thyroid day but might dial in on a different dose and ratio because sometimes I get a little cold that night.

 

[vulture]

What do you guys think of this?

<<

Originally Posted by soldier74
Is it true that you don't need to use an ai while on proviron? I've heard that as it has anti e qualities.
Nope, not true at all. It just has a higher binding affinity at the androgen receptor than estradiol - so you will see less side effects (mostly water retention) than otherwise. Estradiol will continue to build up if an AI isn't present, and unfortunately the nasty side effects are the ones we can't feel or see - like prostatitis, until it's too late for prevention>>

 

[LCohen]

What do you guys think of this?

<<

Originally Posted by soldier74
Is it true that you don't need to use an ai while on proviron? I've heard that as it has anti e qualities.
Nope, not true at all. It just has a higher binding affinity at the androgen receptor than estradiol - so you will see less side effects (mostly water retention) than otherwise. Estradiol will continue to build up if an AI isn't present, and unfortunately the nasty side effects are the ones we can't feel or see - like prostatitis, until it's too late for prevention>>

He is partially right. While it's true that DHT itself is estrogen antagonist, it won't powerfully kill estrogen like an AI. But it's still a decent estrogen antagonist.

But I don't think that "estradiol can continue to build up" (WTF?) If you don't have a really high estrogen/prolactin problem, you don't need AIs too.

 

[RisingSun]

He is partially right. While it's true that DHT itself is estrogen antagonist, it won't powerfully kill estrogen like an AI. But it's still a decent estrogen antagonist.

But I don't think that "estradiol can continue to build up" (WTF?) If you don't have a really high estrogen/prolactin problem, you don't need AIs too.

Proviron and Andractim block estrogens at receptor site only and by no means deactivate aromatase.

So yes, there is an E2 build-up inthe background while taking DHT derivatives, hence the E2 flare up some users experience upon DHT discontinuation without using an AI.