After I work out with moderate intensity I sleep very poorly and get very anhedonic, depressed, and anxious. What is my body telling me?

[AlexR]

Naturally everything has its risks. All evidence, however, points that meditation is largely safe when done in reasonable amounts. Since you refuse to address most of my questions, you leave me to assume that the people you dealt with had been partaking in extensive meditative practice -- which is a vastly different pursuit than meditating less than an hour a day. What you are doing is not unlike demonizing exercising because powerlifters destroy their bodies. It's a little disappointing, considering your concern over bias.

I don’t really care what you think lol. On the one hand, I have helped people fix their debilitating meditation-induced symptoms using neurofeedback and statistical analyses of their brain and you are admittedly just here to try to argue over the internet. Quite frankly, you’re nowhere near as smart as you think and give off extremely strong (and annoying) midwit vibes. You’re arguing with someone who has a community of hundreds of people, including scientists who work at top universities and research labs, and has plenty of years of research and experience and you are going off a hunch that meditation is always safe if you practice for less than an hour. That doesn’t even make sense as if someone practices consistently, they will eventually be able to induce the dangerous state much faster as practice will make you better. That’s the whole point of practice. Most people (thankfully) are not disciplined enough to faithfully and consistently meditate, so they aren’t able to reach the state needed to harm them. Also, that’s not even relevant to the OP as he has stated he is an avid meditator, which would mean he has hours, presumably hundreds, of meditation under his belt and would be enough time to induce pathological effects. Let me know when you’ve done thousands of hours of research, have worked with clients and have statistical analyses of their brains after meditation, and have firsthand experience with successfully identifying and helping the issue. Until then, you are just an internet dweeb with a Donald Duck avatar whose uninformed opinion and complete lack of experience is painstakingly obvious.

 

[TheSir]

I don’t really care what you think lol.

No problem. My thoughts don't matter. This is a discussion about your thoughts.

You’re arguing with someone who has a community of hundreds of people, including scientists who work at top universities and research labs, and has plenty of years of research and experience

That sounds exciting Alex. If only you were willing to let us examine this knowledge too.

Also, that’s not even relevant to the OP as he has stated he is an avid meditator, which would mean he has hours, presumably hundreds, of meditation under his belt and would be enough time to induce pathological effects.

This is a mere blind assumption. You come across a pathological assumer, indulging in several unfounded assumptions about others in each post. It seems that you are more arguing against people inside your mind, rather than the actual people in this forum. This goes for this thread and others you have started. Whence the hubris? Whence the condescendence? Why research for thousands of hours if you are going to just hoard knowledge for yourself and insult people online?

 

[AlexR]

No problem. My thoughts don't matter. This is a discussion about your thoughts.


That sounds exciting Alex. If only you were willing to let us examine this knowledge too.


This is a mere blind assumption. You come across a pathological assumer, indulging in several unfounded assumptions about others in each post. It seems that you are more arguing against people inside your mind, rather than the actual people in this forum. This goes for this thread and others you have started. Whence the hubris? Whence the condescendence? Why research for thousands of hours if you are going to just hoard knowledge for yourself and insult people online?

You see, in the real world, when things are fixed by non-academics, they are not compiled into a research study all that often. Only academia would have the exact evidence and ridiculous burden of proof you require to believe in anything and given the current paradigm of
meditation being completely harmless, the odds of having a study where meditation-induced damage isn’t properly attributed as the cause, enough people are recruited, and it is treated by neurofeedback is virtually impossible. What I can point you to are articles and studies of things like PTSD treatment, which is very similar to a lot of meditation-induced psychosis symptoms, and how successful it was. From that and the evidence of meditation-induced psychosis studies and accounts from religions like Buddhism, you can surmise that what I’m saying has some credibility. I can’t help you take off your blinders though. That’s on you.
Edit: forgot the study https://www.eeginfo.com/research/researchpapers/RodaKorset_update graphics corrected.pdf

 

[TheSir]

You see, in the real world, when things are fixed by non-academics, they are not compiled into a research study all that often. Only academia would have the exact evidence and ridiculous burden of proof you require to believe in anything and given the current paradigm of
meditation being completely harmless, the odds of having a study where meditation-induced damage isn’t properly attributed as the cause, enough people are recruited, and it is treated by neurofeedback is virtually impossible. What I can point you to are articles and studies of things like PTSD treatment, which is very similar to a lot of meditation-induced psychosis symptoms, and how successful it was. From that and the evidence of meditation-induced psychosis studies and accounts from religions like Buddhism, you can surmise that what I’m saying has some credibility. I can’t help you take off your blinders though. That’s on you.

I wouldn't want to impose on you. Studies, academia, let's just push those notions aside. All I am seeking are your personal answers to the questions I posed earlier. They should be very straightforward questions to answer considering the extraordinary extent of experiential knowledge. Can you drop the pretense and humor my questions for a post or two?

How do you know so many people who have ruined their lives with meditation?
How were their lives ruined?
How did you determine that meditation was the culprit?
How extensive was their practice?
How did you determine whether or not they were facing a mere temporary setback?
Were there differences in outcome between various meditative practices? What kind of meditation was the least likely to ruin people?
Was there any overlap with practices like qigong, reiki, fasting, celibacy?
Was there any overlap with past traumas, substance abuse, pre-existing mental illnesses?
How often do these people get better after following your regimen? How large portion of meditation-induced illness did you find incurable?

 

[AlexR]

I wouldn't want to impose on you. Studies, academia, let's just push those notions aside. All I am seeking are your personal answers to the questions I posed earlier. They should be very straightforward questions to answer considering the extraordinary extent of experiential knowledge. Can you drop the pretense and humor my questions for a post or two?

How do you know so many people who have ruined their lives with meditation?
How were their lives ruined?
How did you determine that meditation was the culprit?
How extensive was their practice?
How did you determine whether or not they were facing a mere temporary setback?
Were there differences in outcome between various meditative practices? What kind of meditation was the least likely to ruin people?
Was there any overlap with practices like qigong, reiki, fasting, celibacy?
Was there any overlap with past traumas, substance abuse, pre-existing mental illnesses?
How often do these people get better after following your regimen? How large portion of meditation-induced illness did you find incurable?

I posted a study in my last post. In response to your questions, it is obvious when meditation is the culprit. These people live normal lives and then they start meditating and then things get worse. There are plenty of studies and a meta-analysis to back up my claims. You dismissed it without any evidence that it was false. Nice double standard you have. The success rate for neurofeedback is quite high actually. You can read the study I posted and do some research yourself. On another note, can you imagine how much time I would waste if I responded to hyper-skeptical people like you in entirety and exactly to your standards. I used to do that and it was futile. You're here for an argument and not to learn. I am only entertaining you as it is quarantine and there really isn't much else to do in my off time. People like you have standards that are so ridiculous and unrealistic to fulfill. I mean, did you actually read your questions and not cringe at them? Nothing new would ever get discovered or invented if people like you set the standards. Also, you need to learn some basic social skills. I am here to offer advice, free at that, to the OP who has a problem that I have recognized before. He is welcome to take or not take my advice and I am welcome to respond to his criticism. You are welcome to be an annoying midwit with the sole purpose of trying to debate as well, but just know that nobody views what you're doing as a sign of superior intellectual ability or anything else you believe that you are doing. Most people are not going to give you advice like what I have given you in fear of being rude or just not caring, but I can surmise from your posts that you are a young male whose life is not headed in a good direction as is an unfortunate epidemic in today's reality of weak men. Instead of posting a ridiculous laundry list of questions with ridiculous standards, do your due diligence and actually research some of the links I have posted if you are going to continue engaging me in a hostile manner. I really can't take you seriously if you're going to keep arguing about things as if you were an expert when you are clearly a layperson in this field.

 

[TheSir]

In response to your questions, it is obvious when meditation is the culprit. These people live normal lives and then they start meditating and then things get worse.

Hmm.. how does this make it obvious, if I may ask? What is obvious is that they are suffering. The question is, are they suffering because a) meditation is creating suffering out of thin air, b) meditation is uncovering buried trauma or c) they are meditating wrong? How can one determine this?

There are plenty of studies and a meta-analysis to back up my claims. You dismissed it without any evidence that it was false. Nice double standard you have.

Not sure I'm following. In your previous post you said that you'd be unable to provide much proof because we are not in an academic setting. I assured you that it's fine, explaining that I'm only interested in hearing your personal experiences -- which I'm still interested in.

On another note, can you imagine how much time I would waste if I responded to hyper-skeptical people like you in entirety and exactly to your standards.

Consider the course of this exchange:

1. you offer an opinion
2. I ask questions about your opinion
3. I am now a hyper-skeptic

Let it be emphasized that I have no strong opinions on the subject . I'm not invested in this argument on a personal level. All I am doing is asking you to explain your position, as it seems like you have a lot to teach. This is not a scrutiny. It's an exploration!

I am only entertaining you as it is quarantine and there really isn't much else to do in my off time.

I appreciate that you allow me to be there for you in your moment of boredom, Alex!

 

[Inabruzzo]

Meditation-Induced Psychosis

Download Citation | Meditation-Induced Psychosis | Meditation is a self-regulatory psychological strategy that is frequently applied in Western as well as non-Western countries for different... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5991354_Meditation-Induced_Psychosis A literature search for psychotic states related to meditation was carried out on PubMed, Embase and PsycInfo. In the case presented a diagnosis of acute polymorphic psychotic disorder was made. Other case reports...

raypeatforum.com

STOP MEDITATING NOW! How many more cases of people with these exact same symptoms do we need to see before some credence is given to the idea that meditation can seriously harm you? I’m not 100% saying that the meditation is causing this, but I am saying that it is a very real possibility and I’ve seen too many people get harmed by the practice. Try cutting the meditation for some time and see if it helps. Nothing else you’re doing really seems all that odd besides potentially having an allergy to something you’re eating. Why are you still meditating if after doing so you are mentally and physically worse than somebody who doesn’t?

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