After I work out with moderate intensity I sleep very poorly and get very anhedonic, depressed, and anxious. What is my body telling me?

[username]

I will probably post some questions about this again in the future as I am extremely tired, anhedonic, depressed, and feel like I am always on the cusp of a panic attack (though I never actually have one), so I don't know if I can't really flesh this out.

I am a male of 29 years. 5'10". 185lb. I am fit and fairly lean, but definitely not too lean. I seem to have a little bit of extra fat around my midsection and maybe more fat than normal on my chest for a male. I have been working out for years doing bodyweight training primarily. I have gradually become less and less tolerant of any degree of intense exercise. Now I probably go about 60% of what I used to and I still feel the consequences. I train for 1 hour full body M,W,F but it never feels too intense while training. I train in the morning. I eat plenty of every macro. Mostly milk (which I have been having loads of for several months and am getting tired of it), red meat, beef organs, fresh orange juice that I juice myself, coconut water, sometimes mashed potatoes.

Like I said, I work out in the morning, yet my sleep is terrible. I feel like my body is buzzing with anxiety and I am exhausted all the time. I sometimes feel like I can barely breath, but my thoughts aren't out of control. I am an avid meditator and I feel like my anxiety/depression (to put lightly) is originating in my body and not my mind.

The day after the workout I continue to feel the the intense anxiety (almost panic) and anhedonia. Anhedonia, for those that do not know, is basically the inability to experience pleasure. I become completely unmotivated and enjoy almost nothing at all, even if I force myself to go on an adventure and do something novel.

I know that many people will suggest that I simply stop working out, which is ofcourse reasonable, but I am hoping to find out what my body is telling me, because I truly believe that I should be able to perform my workouts especially since I have dropped the intensity signicantly, and it is all bodyweight stuff that lends itself to mobility and longevity imo.

Honestly, even if I stop exercising, I am hoping that I can learn something from this situation because I feel absolutely crazy regardless of the exercise. It just makes things worse. To recap my feelings: I feel extremely anxious (in my body mostly, like I can't breath at times), depressed, anhedonic, and exhausted all the time, and I can't sleep well.

Could low testosterone cause this? I haven't tested much in a long time besaise Iron and thyroid which seem to be fine by most standards, even here.

EDIT: Also with all the stress, I am losing my appitite which has hardly ever been an issue for me in life.

My sleeping troubles usually occur at the 2nd half of the night. I can usually get around 4 hours of sleep before I wake up and can't get back to sleep.

 

[Hans]

I will probably post some questions about this again in the future as I am extremely tired, anhedonic, depressed, and feel like I am always on the cusp of a panic attack (though I never actually have one), so I don't know if I can't really flesh this out.

I am a male of 29 years. I am fit and fairly lean, but definitely not too lean. I seem to have a little bit of extra fat around my midsection and maybe more fat than normal on my chest for a male. I have been working out for years doing bodyweight training primarily. I have gradually become less and less tolerant of any degree of intense exercise. Now I probably go about 60% of what I used to and I still feel the consequences. I train for 1 hour full body M,W,F but it never feels too intense while training. I train in the morning. I eat plenty of every macro. Mostly milk (which I have been having loads of for several months and am getting tired of it), red meat, beef organs, fresh orange juice that I juice myself, coconut water, sometimes mashed potatoes.

Like I said, I work out in the morning, yet my sleep is terrible. I feel like my body is buzzing with anxiety and I am exhausted all the time. I sometimes feel like I can barely breath, but my thoughts aren't out of control. I am an avid meditator and I feel like my anxiety/depression (to put lightly) is originating in my body and not my mind.

The day after the workout I continue to feel the the intense anxiety (almost panic) and anhedonia. Anhedonia, for those that do not know, is basically the inability to experience pleasure. I become completely unmotivated and enjoy almost nothing at all, even if I force myself to go on an adventure and do something novel.

I know that many people will suggest that I simply stop working out, which is ofcourse reasonable, but I am hoping to find out what my body is telling me, because I truly believe that I should be able to perform my workouts especially since I have dropped the intensity signicantly, and it is all bodyweight stuff that lends itself to mobility and longevity imo.

Honestly, even if I stop exercising, I am hoping that I can learn something from this situation because I feel absolutely crazy regardless of the exercise. It just makes things worse. To recap my feelings: I feel extremely anxious (in my body mostly, like I can't breath at times), depressed, anhedonic, and exhausted all the time, and I can't sleep well.

Could low testosterone cause this? I haven't tested much in a long time besaise Iron and thyroid which seem to be fine by most standards, even here.

EDIT: Also with all the stress, I am losing my appitite which has hardly ever been an issue for me in life.

Do you eat pre-workout?
What does your workout look like?
How many calories do you eat per day?

Starting the day wrong or with low glycogen could ruin the rest of the day. Causing a stress response that's not lowered fast enough can also cause issue during the day and even the next day.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I will probably post some questions about this again in the future as I am extremely tired, anhedonic, depressed, and feel like I am always on the cusp of a panic attack (though I never actually have one), so I don't know if I can't really flesh this out.

I am a male of 29 years. I am fit and fairly lean, but definitely not too lean. I seem to have a little bit of extra fat around my midsection and maybe more fat than normal on my chest for a male. I have been working out for years doing bodyweight training primarily. I have gradually become less and less tolerant of any degree of intense exercise. Now I probably go about 60% of what I used to and I still feel the consequences. I train for 1 hour full body M,W,F but it never feels too intense while training. I train in the morning. I eat plenty of every macro. Mostly milk (which I have been having loads of for several months and am getting tired of it), red meat, beef organs, fresh orange juice that I juice myself, coconut water, sometimes mashed potatoes.

Like I said, I work out in the morning, yet my sleep is terrible. I feel like my body is buzzing with anxiety and I am exhausted all the time. I sometimes feel like I can barely breath, but my thoughts aren't out of control. I am an avid meditator and I feel like my anxiety/depression (to put lightly) is originating in my body and not my mind.

The day after the workout I continue to feel the the intense anxiety (almost panic) and anhedonia. Anhedonia, for those that do not know, is basically the inability to experience pleasure. I become completely unmotivated and enjoy almost nothing at all, even if I force myself to go on an adventure and do something novel.

I know that many people will suggest that I simply stop working out, which is ofcourse reasonable, but I am hoping to find out what my body is telling me, because I truly believe that I should be able to perform my workouts especially since I have dropped the intensity signicantly, and it is all bodyweight stuff that lends itself to mobility and longevity imo.

Honestly, even if I stop exercising, I am hoping that I can learn something from this situation because I feel absolutely crazy regardless of the exercise. It just makes things worse. To recap my feelings: I feel extremely anxious (in my body mostly, like I can't breath at times), depressed, anhedonic, and exhausted all the time, and I can't sleep well.

Could low testosterone cause this? I haven't tested much in a long time besaise Iron and thyroid which seem to be fine by most standards, even here.

EDIT: Also with all the stress, I am losing my appitite which has hardly ever been an issue for me in life.

Do you live in a house or in an apartment?

How close to the wi- fi router are you sleeping?

As I see it, exercise is a challenge for the body. Nothing wrong with that, challenging yourself is great and I myself love exercise, but perhaps your metabolism isn't in a good place, and the little exertion combined with EMF may be what it takes to push you over the edge. EMF promotes calcium entry into the cell, and magnesium pulls calcium out of the cell( I think this is why it makes people relaxed).

Are you taking B1 and B3? B1 should help with breathing, and B3 is the precursor to NAD, without which it's impossible to extract energy( electrons) from food. If the person is stressed or using more electrons from food for any reason, they will need more NAD, which means more B3 is going to be required.

 

[Spartan300]

I'm older than you but I have experienced similar effects from exercise for the last few years.

Your body is telling you that you're not in a good enough state of health to cope with the training load.

It's like a bank balance, withdraw more than you have in the bank and you're screwed. And it has to be fixed before you can progress.

The effects you describe along with some body composition issues all point to stress hormones.
You need rest and good food. Supplements can help but won't fix anything on their own. I've tried...

In a stressed state digestion is compromised and for me at least my sleep goes along with my gut health.

Removing the stress should be the first step. If it's just overtraining then a break should do it.
Assess other stress too and determine whether there are other things that need addressing such as mental or emotional stresses.

 

[username]

Do you eat pre-workout?
What does your workout look like?
How many calories do you eat per day?

Starting the day wrong or with low glycogen could ruin the rest of the day. Causing a stress response that's not lowered fast enough can also cause issue during the day and even the next day.

I do eat pre-workout. Usually meat and milk. Sometimes orange juice too. Post workout is more milk, orange juice, sometimes rice or mashed potatoes. I drink coconut water often, too. I used to load up on honey, but my body just started rejecting it so not recently. But it didn't help with this feeling then anyway.

I do the Reccommended Routine from the subredit r/bodyweightfitness. I take long breaks between each set. 4 pairs
Example for first pair: Pullups, rest 2:30s, Bulgarian Split Squats, rest 2:30s <- this repeated for a total of 3 sets of each exercise

So the full workout is:
Pullups, Bulgarian Split Squats
Ring Dips, Nordic Ham Curls
Ring Rows, Ring Pushups
Hanging Leg Raises, Reverse Hyperextensions

Lately I am having trouble eating enough, but I used to easily eat 3500 calories everyday and still had this problem. The stress is building up and never really going away and so my appitite is extremely diminished. It also seems like my digestion is worsening. I don't do caffeine anymore because all it does is cause me anxiety and fatigue at any dosage no matter if I pair it with plenty of carbs.

Do you live in a house or in an apartment?

How close to the wi- fi router are you sleeping?

As I see it, exercise is a challenge for the body. Nothing wrong with that, challenging yourself is great and I myself love exercise, but perhaps your metabolism isn't in a good place, and the little exertion combined with EMF may be what it takes to push you over the edge. EMF promotes calcium entry into the cell, and magnesium pulls calcium out of the cell( I think this is why it makes people relaxed).

Are you taking B1 and B3? B1 should help with breathing, and B3 is the precursor to NAD, without which it's impossible to extract energy( electrons) from food. If the person is stressed or using more electrons from food for any reason, they will need more NAD, which means more B3 is going to be required.

I live in Costa Rica near the beach in the Caribbean and I get tons of fresh air and sun. (Though there may be times when I actually get poor air like mold or fungus because of all the wooden structures and heat and humidity here, its very possible this is an issue for me)

We turn off the router at night, and I am not particularly close to it during the day.

I have been taking benfotiamine for several weeks and had a lot of thiamine hcl in the past. I never noticed anything, but I figure I will keep taking the benfotiamine until I run out. I have Niacin and have experimented with it, but I haven't noticed any changes. I will try to keep trying though.

As far as I can tell, I do not get a lot of EMF. I intentionally avoid it. I have RED flicker free lights for night time and use blue light blockers when I am around screens after dark or with friends around other artificial light.

I'm older than you but I have experienced similar effects from exercise for the last few years.

Your body is telling you that you're not in a good enough state of health to cope with the training load.

It's like a bank balance, withdraw more than you have in the bank and you're screwed. And it has to be fixed before you can progress.

The effects you describe along with some body composition issues all point to stress hormones.
You need rest and good food. Supplements can help but won't fix anything on their own. I've tried...

In a stressed state digestion is compromised and for me at least my sleep goes along with my gut health.

Removing the stress should be the first step. If it's just overtraining then a break should do it.
Assess other stress too and determine whether there are other things that need addressing such as mental or emotional stresses.

I agree with everything you are saying. I have taken long breaks from training, though, and I still have very noticeble issues. It just isn't nearly so intense as it is when I am training hard. I have tried to remove all stressors and I don't get very far. I think something needs special attention, I just don't know what it is.

 

[Ignoramus]

I feel bad if I eat like that too. I guess our metabolisms aren't so good or whatever. Maybe try a couple of days of just eating what you want to eat, without any preconceptions about it. I do so much better if I swap the OJ for actual fruit (I like mango, grapes and pineapple), for whatever reason, and also if I get more carbs from solid foods like rice and potatoes. Maybe we can't use the carbohydrate as effectively from the liquid source or something?

 

[Explorer]

Could be an excess release of the Histamine do you get similar symptoms after any other triggers as well?

 

[TheSir]

1. Working out causes a build up of lactic acid.
2. Based on your symptoms (breathlessness, anxiety, fatigue, depression), you may already be running on high levels of lactic acid in the first place.
3. Ideally, the high amount of lactic acid your body is producing in order to keep your blood acidic would be replaced by an abundance of CO2 -- CO2 is the most beneficial and least harmless acidificator of the blood.
4. Currently you are losing too much CO2 due to hyperventilation (you are not as fit as you think).
5. Thus, you need to learn to retain more CO2.

Look into the Buteyko technique, all of your symptoms will resolve in just a couple of weeks after you get your control pause up.

 

[Diokine]

If this has been an ongoing issue with reduction in sleep quality, I would frame it through the lens of progressive pituitary insufficiency leading to deficiencies in growth hormone and other endocrine hormones needed to maintain a proper adaptation to stress (ie exercise.) This can also impact digestion significantly, causing issues with nutrient absorption and problems supplying the adrenals with nutrition. Brothy soups with well cooked vegetables and salt, that are very savory, can help nourish the adrenals.

Trouble catching your breath can be caused by adrenal insufficiency, or the impaired reaction of blood vessels to stimulation. This is usually associated with increased aldosterone and activation of the renin-aldosterone-angiotensin system. With enough stress, the vascular system becomes non-compliant and stiff, and becomes less competent at maintaining both pressure and delivery of nutrients through membranes (the function of these membranes is energy dependent.)

Proper sleep will be very important, more important than training at this point. Sleep is the time when the pituitary is most active at comprehending stimulation. Some supplements can help in cases where your system is unable to regulate well enough to enter into proper phases of sleep. These include glycine, B5 (pantothenic acid,) B6 (pyridoxal-5-phosphate,) and possibly melatonin. It's also important to keep insulin levels lower during times when you sleep, and during times where stress adaptation is low insulin can be elevated. So be careful with sugar and insulin near bed time.

Ginseng and Rhodiola may be beneficial to help restore tone to the HPA axis and encourage things in the right direction.

edit: I saw you have some Niacin (B3,) I suspect that niacin may help with maintaining endothelial health. I use it regularly and have found it to be beneficial for many issues.

 

[username]

I feel bad if I eat like that too. I guess our metabolisms aren't so good or whatever. Maybe try a couple of days of just eating what you want to eat, without any preconceptions about it. I do so much better if I swap the OJ for actual fruit (I like mango, grapes and pineapple), for whatever reason, and also if I get more carbs from solid foods like rice and potatoes. Maybe we can't use the carbohydrate as effectively from the liquid source or something?

I was long term carnivore but stopped maybe 5 months ago after reading peat's philosophies. To be honest I don't feel any better this way, but I don't think I want to remove carbohydrates entirely again. The fiber in mango and pineapple doesn't digest well for me. I end up gassing and seeing undigested bits in my stool. I feel like potatoes might be giving me some brain fog, but I am not exactly sure. Diet is a pain in the ****. I have tried so hard.

Could be an excess release of the Histamine do you get similar symptoms after any other triggers as well?

I can't say that there are other obvious triggers, but I never really feel free of the symptoms. They are just much less intense. I think stress in general of any kind may be a trigger, but I can't think of specific examples so I am not sure.

1. Working out causes a build up of lactic acid.
2. Based on your symptoms (breathlessness, anxiety, fatigue, depression), you may already be running on high levels of lactic acid in the first place.
3. Ideally, the high amount of lactic acid your body is producing in order to keep your blood acidic would be replaced by an abundance of CO2 -- CO2 is the most beneficial and least harmless acidificator of the blood.
4. Currently you are losing too much CO2 due to hyperventilation (you are not as fit as you think).
5. Thus, you need to learn to retain more CO2.

Look into the Buteyko technique, all of your symptoms will resolve in just a couple of weeks after you get your control pause up.

I've considered lactic acid to be one of the main issues, but I don't really know how to assess this and deal with it I have done PLENTY of Wim Hoff breathing, but this never helped my issues. Is Buteyko different enough to make a difference?

I don't have isues with breathing while working out. In some senses maybe I am not as fit as I think but my performance is great and my body shows it (I mentioned I have some fat on chest and around midsection, but its not much. I still look good)

If this has been an ongoing issue with reduction in sleep quality, I would frame it through the lens of progressive pituitary insufficiency leading to deficiencies in growth hormone and other endocrine hormones needed to maintain a proper adaptation to stress (ie exercise.) This can also impact digestion significantly, causing issues with nutrient absorption and problems supplying the adrenals with nutrition. Brothy soups with well cooked vegetables and salt, that are very savory, can help nourish the adrenals.

Trouble catching your breath can be caused by adrenal insufficiency, or the impaired reaction of blood vessels to stimulation. This is usually associated with increased aldosterone and activation of the renin-aldosterone-angiotensin system. With enough stress, the vascular system becomes non-compliant and stiff, and becomes less competent at maintaining both pressure and delivery of nutrients through membranes (the function of these membranes is energy dependent.)

Proper sleep will be very important, more important than training at this point. Sleep is the time when the pituitary is most active at comprehending stimulation. Some supplements can help in cases where your system is unable to regulate well enough to enter into proper phases of sleep. These include glycine, B5 (pantothenic acid,) B6 (pyridoxal-5-phosphate,) and possibly melatonin. It's also important to keep insulin levels lower during times when you sleep, and during times where stress adaptation is low insulin can be elevated. So be careful with sugar and insulin near bed time.

Ginseng and Rhodiola may be beneficial to help restore tone to the HPA axis and encourage things in the right direction.

This is a lot of information. Thanks for taking the time. I don't know exactly how to implement what you are sharing, though. I have a bag of unopened glycine that I can begin experimenting with. I don't eat much of anything after the sun goes down. I don't have an appatite by this time. I get most of my carbs earlier in the day.

 

[Dobbler]

I would advise to listen to your body and take a break. "just eat more and keep doing it" might not be the best idea right now.

 

[AlexR]

Like I said, I work out in the morning, yet my sleep is terrible. I feel like my body is buzzing with anxiety and I am exhausted all the time. I sometimes feel like I can barely breath, but my thoughts aren't out of control. I am an avid meditator and I feel like my anxiety/depression (to put lightly) is originating in my body and not my mind.

Meditation-Induced Psychosis

Download Citation | Meditation-Induced Psychosis | Meditation is a self-regulatory psychological strategy that is frequently applied in Western as well as non-Western countries for different... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5991354_Meditation-Induced_Psychosis A literature search for psychotic states related to meditation was carried out on PubMed, Embase and PsycInfo. In the case presented a diagnosis of acute polymorphic psychotic disorder was made. Other case reports...

raypeatforum.com

STOP MEDITATING NOW! How many more cases of people with these exact same symptoms do we need to see before some credence is given to the idea that meditation can seriously harm you? I’m not 100% saying that the meditation is causing this, but I am saying that it is a very real possibility and I’ve seen too many people get harmed by the practice. Try cutting the meditation for some time and see if it helps. Nothing else you’re doing really seems all that odd besides potentially having an allergy to something you’re eating. Why are you still meditating if after doing so you are mentally and physically worse than somebody who doesn’t?

 

[TheSir]

I have done PLENTY of Wim Hoff breathing, but this never helped my issues. Is Buteyko different enough to make a difference?

Yes. Wim Hof is kind of a gimmick and the exercise isn't extensive enough to result in improved co2 tolerance. It takes about 1-2 hours of daily breath training (or cardio) to keep progressing forward. This may sound like a lot, but once you learn to gently reduce your breathing and relax, you can easily rack in multiple hours while watching TV, surfing the internet etc. It will also feel good in your body so you will want to do it. Unlike Wim Hof, Buteyko will never be uncomfortable or stressful. It will hardly even feel like you're doing anything at all, other than relaxing.

I don't have isues with breathing while working out.

It's one thing to be muscularly adapted to exercise, and another to have good baseline cellular oxygenation. Consider that even 10% of competitive athletes have asthma because their co2 conditioning is so poor.

 

[TheSir]

Meditation-Induced Psychosis

Download Citation | Meditation-Induced Psychosis | Meditation is a self-regulatory psychological strategy that is frequently applied in Western as well as non-Western countries for different... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5991354_Meditation-Induced_Psychosis A literature search for psychotic states related to meditation was carried out on PubMed, Embase and PsycInfo. In the case presented a diagnosis of acute polymorphic psychotic disorder was made. Other case reports...

raypeatforum.com

STOP MEDITATING NOW! How many more cases of people with these exact same symptoms do we need to see before some credence is given to the idea that meditation can seriously harm you? I’m not 100% saying that the meditation is causing this, but I am saying that it is a very real possibility and I’ve seen too many people get harmed by the practice. Try cutting the meditation for some time and see if it helps. Nothing else you’re doing really seems all that odd besides potentially having an allergy to something you’re eating. Why are you still meditating if after doing so you are mentally and physically worse than somebody who doesn’t?

Of the 28 cases reported, 14 patients had certain precipitating factors like insomnia, lack of food intake, history of mental illness, stress, and psychoactive substance use.

Ha, sounds like meditation must be the culprit? Associative studies are kind of pointless anyway.

 

[Hans]

I do eat pre-workout. Usually meat and milk. Sometimes orange juice too. Post workout is more milk, orange juice, sometimes rice or mashed potatoes. I drink coconut water often, too. I used to load up on honey, but my body just started rejecting it so not recently. But it didn't help with this feeling then anyway.

I do the Reccommended Routine from the subredit r/bodyweightfitness. I take long breaks between each set. 4 pairs
Example for first pair: Pullups, rest 2:30s, Bulgarian Split Squats, rest 2:30s <- this repeated for a total of 3 sets of each exercise

So the full workout is:
Pullups, Bulgarian Split Squats
Ring Dips, Nordic Ham Curls
Ring Rows, Ring Pushups
Hanging Leg Raises, Reverse Hyperextensions

Lately I am having trouble eating enough, but I used to easily eat 3500 calories everyday and still had this problem. The stress is building up and never really going away and so my appitite is extremely diminished. It also seems like my digestion is worsening. I don't do caffeine anymore because all it does is cause me anxiety and fatigue at any dosage no matter if I pair it with plenty of carbs.

Do you have anything intra-workout as well. With long rests, such a workout can easily become draining. Do you go to failure on each set?

 

[AlexR]

Do you have anything intra-workout as well. With long rests, such a workout can easily become draining. Do you go to failure on each set?

Do you honestly think that 3 hours of bodyweight exercises a week are what is causing his symptoms? That’s ridiculous. Especially when he’s eating over 3000 calories a day.

 

[TheSir]

Do you honestly think that 3 hours of bodyweight exercises a week are what is causing his symptoms? That’s ridiculous. Especially when he’s eating over 3000 calories a day.

An unexpected sentiment from someone who suggested that sitting down and thinking about nothing might be destroying him.

 

[AlexR]

An unexpected sentiment from someone who suggested that sitting down and thinking about nothing might be destroying him.

Do all meditators have terrible logic? Hurr durr meditation makes absolutely no changes, good or bad, because you’re just sitting there thinking about nothing.

 

[ilhanxx]

how is your breathing speed before sleep? Are you sensitive low environment sound before bed? Buteyko helps to cortisol down and relaxing. Emf sources are breaking down sleep quality, I tried all supplements and medications, the best worked one for me is 125mg aspirin+250mg niacin(nicotinic acid)+250mg ascorbic acid as soon as fall asleep. Cyproheptadine can help low appetite.

 

[TheSir]

Do all meditators have terrible logic? Hurr durr meditation makes absolutely no changes, good or bad, because you’re just sitting there thinking about nothing.

That's fallacious. Consider that you are arguing that OP's recovery from physical exercise is worsening because he is exercising his mind. One does not need to counter-argue that meditation 'makes no changes' in order to dispute your hypothesis. In your view, OP can easily withstand hours of demanding exercise, but not the occasional bout of intentional thoughtlessness. Question: don't you find this humorous?