After I work out with moderate intensity I sleep very poorly and get very anhedonic, depressed, and anxious. What is my body telling me?

[AlexR]

That's fallacious. Consider that you are arguing that OP's recovery from physical exercise is worsening because he is exercising his mind. One does not need to counter-argue that meditation 'makes no changes' in order to dispute your hypothesis. In your view, OP can easily withstand hours of demanding exercise, but not the occasional bout of intentional thoughtlessness. Question: don't you find this humorous?

being edited currently

 

[TheSir]

I’m not arguing that his poor recovery from physical exercise is being caused by meditation.

it is possible meditation is causing negative changes and a symptom of that would be lack of resilience to 3 hours a week of exercise.

What is the difference in your view? Sounds like two different ways of postulating the same idea.

That’s not normal

Agree.

I have plenty of experience with people ruining their lives with meditation.

You don’t even understand what meditation is

You simply don’t know enough and don’t have enough experience to be speaking about this topic

Let's go with these.

How do you know so many people who have ruined their lives with meditation?
How were their lives ruined?
How did you determine that meditation was the culprit?
How did you determine whether or not they were facing a mere temporary setback?
Were there differences in outcome between various meditative practices? What kind of meditation was the least likely to ruin people?
Was there any overlap with practices like qigong, reiki, fasting, celibacy?
Was there any overlap with past traumas, substance abuse, pre-existing mental illnesses?

 

[AlexR]

What is the difference in your view? Sounds like two different ways of postulating the same idea.


Agree.




Let's go with these.

How do you know so many people who have ruined their lives with meditation?
How were their lives ruined?
How did you determine that meditation was the culprit?
How did you determine whether or not they were facing a mere temporary setback?
Were there differences in outcome between various meditative practices? What kind of meditation was the least likely to ruin people?
Was there any overlap with practices like qigong, reiki, fasting, celibacy?
Was there any overlap with past traumas, substance abuse, pre-existing mental illnesses?

Here, I’ll make it simple for you. Do your research on how meditation causes problems and you seem to already know that it does. As for me, I see a list of negative mental and physical symptoms, I see that they are also avid meditators, I immediately suggest they stop meditating since it can cause issues like you said it does in people with past problems and traumas.

 

[TheSir]

Here, I’ll make it simple for you. Do your research on how meditation causes problems

Well see, it's your research that I am interested in. Such strong opinions as yours tend to be shared by two kinds of people: those who know a lot, and those who want to seem like they know a lot. In my experience, people of the former kind enthusiastically share what they know. Your answers, if they exist, would provide a lot of value not only to me, but to everyone in this thread, and legitimize your opinions in the eyes of others.

As for me, I see a list of negative mental and physical symptoms, I see that they are also avid meditators, I immediately suggest they stop meditating since it can cause issues like you said it does in people with past problems and traumas.

What is it that you do that frequently puts you in a position where you have to tell sick people to stop meditating? Are you a mentor? A health coach?
How often do these people get better after following your suggestion?

 

[AlexR]

Well see, it's your research that I am interested in. Such strong opinions as yours tend to be shared by two kinds of people: those who know a lot, and those who want to seem like they know a lot. In my experience, people of the former kind enthusiastically share what they know. Your answers, if they exist, would provide a lot of value not only to me, but to everyone in this thread, and legitimize your opinions in the eyes of others.


What is it that you do that frequently puts you in a position where you have to tell sick people to stop meditating? Are you a mentor? A health coach?
How often do these people get better after following your suggestion?

I have dealt with plenty of clients and friends who have been damaged by meditation. There is something called a QEEG that compares your brainwaves to that of a population norm. It is not a perfect measurement, but it is good enough to tell when something is going wrong as their brain will differ by up to 3 or more standard deviations (1 in 1000). The people who meditate and develop negative symptoms usually have one of the two patterns. Either they "traumatize" themselves and develop excessive fast waves in the back of their head correlated to anxiety, hyper-vigilance, and body agitation, much like you would see in someone with PTSD, or they develop excessive slow waves indicating hypometabolism in parts of the brain responsible for regulating their emotions, thoughts, behaviors, etc... Both can occur simultaneously indicating hypofrontality where the brain has stopped using its higher functions and shifted its duties to the back of the head which leads to more automatic processing as one would need for survival. Something that is unanimously beneficial would not cause these sorts of problems and it is not something that can be explained away by things like trauma and prior mental illness. Many of these people were perfectly fine before meditation. There is really too much to get into and all sorts of ideas and explanations for why meditation can go wrong. I simply see that someone is an avid meditator and has all sorts of weird, unexplainable symptoms and I make the connection because I've seen these issues lots of times in the past. Not everything that exists has been fully documented and explored by your scientific authority figures as to the exact mechanisms and rates they occur at. If you are truly interested in what I have said and not just trying to win an internet debate, you should look into QEEGs and how they can quantify things like ADHD and other conditions more than a diagnosis can.

 

[TheSir]

It is not a perfect measurement, but it is good enough to tell when something is going wrong as their brain will differ by up to 3 or more standard deviations (1 in 1000).

Would a deviation innately mean that something has gone wrong? You may be familiar with a French monk dubbed as 'the world's happiest man' who partook a 12-year study on meditation and compassion:

The scans showed that when meditating on compassion, Ricard’s brain produces a level of gamma waves – those linked to consciousness, attention, learning and memory – ‘never reported before in the neuroscience literature’

Something that is unanimously beneficial would not cause these sorts of problems and it is not something that can be explained away by things like trauma and prior mental illness. Many of these people were perfectly fine before meditation

Wouldn't this be difficult to determine though? Living is inherently traumatic. Almost all of us carry the burden of unresolved emotional tension in our nervous system. If these problems that arise have nothing to do with the pre-existing conditions of their body and mind, what then is causing them in your view? What fundamentally separates these people from other who experience minimal ill effects as a result of their practice?

I have dealt with plenty of clients and friends who have been damaged by meditation.

How extensive was their practice? Are we talking more or less than hour a day?

If you are truly interested in what I have said and not just trying to win an internet debate

Ah, rest assured, it's an inspiring balance of both.

 

[AlexR]

Would a deviation innately mean that something has gone wrong? You may be familiar with a French monk dubbed as 'the world's happiest man' who partook a 12-year study on meditation and compassion:



Wouldn't this be difficult to determine though? Living is inherently traumatic. Almost all of us carry the burden of unresolved emotional tension in our nervous system. If these problems that arise have nothing to do with the pre-existing conditions of their body and mind, what then is causing them in your view? What fundamentally separates these people from other who experience minimal ill effects as a result of their practice?


How extensive was their practice? Are we talking more or less than hour a day?


Ah, rest assured, it's an inspiring balance of both.

If meditation can amplify the effect of trauma, and life is inherently traumatic, then meditation should not be recommended as something safe. This isn’t hard to understand. Yes, being three standard deviations away from normal prefrontal activation is a bad thing and it shows in people who have it and they suffer greatly. A monk’s life is highly romanticized and there is a lot of bias when they are used as examples of the beneficial effects of meditation. It’s not clear that the lives they lead are better than those who don’t and it’s not clear that borrowing their practices in a context outside of a monastery is a good thing. I’ve seen way too many people who were perfectly normal before meditation and then experience severe and debilitating symptoms eerily similar to those of the OP. I’m not going to ignore my firsthand evidence and experience because society has romanticized meditation and monks.

 

[Hans]

Do you honestly think that 3 hours of bodyweight exercises a week are what is causing his symptoms? That’s ridiculous. Especially when he’s eating over 3000 calories a day.

I have experienced this myself so I'm speaking from experience. If you're metabolically compromised, you can't train for long periods of time without feeling terrible, even if you rest long. It is better to do a few sets in a shorter period of time, such as 20-30 min compared to 60min.
As your health improves, the volume and duration of the workout can be increased.

 

[Sefton10]

I have experienced this myself so I'm speaking from experience. If you're metabolically compromised, you can't train for long periods of time without feeling terrible, even if you rest long. It is better to do a few sets in a shorter period of time, such as 20-30 min compared to 60min.
As your health improves, the volume and duration of the workout can be increased.

Agree with @Hans here and what @Spartan300 says earlier in the thread. I haven't trained for 3 weeks now after really hitting a health low point (which I've documented on another thread). This is easily the longest I've gone without resistance training for 20 years. To be honest it is really difficult and I'm really having to force myself not to go back to it too soon when I get tempted - I think many of us here have some form of exercise addiction in a way as we've done it so long.

Bizarrely, my muscles actually feel firmer/fuller despite not working out, although I have been on a course of antibiotics and cut starch out for the last 2 weeks too. Yet the niggle is at the back of my mind that I'm suddenly going to put on 20 kilos of fat weight without training, old thinking and habits die hard.

As @TheBeard said on another thread earlier, muscle growth etc. is as much about well functioning metabolism as it is the exercise/training and I think to get the most out of exercise that foundation needs to be in place first. For some who have dug themselves into a deeper hole, that might mean significant time away from the gym to let the body and CNS recover properly.

 

[Frostee]

I seem to have a little bit of extra fat around my midsection and maybe more fat than normal on my chest for a male

High chest fat sounds like high estrogen, and high belly fat sounds like high cortisol. I think tests for those as well as prolactin would be good

Mostly milk (which I have been having loads of for several months and am getting tired of it)

Could be too much liquid and too little salt, I can definitely relate

To recap my feelings: I feel extremely anxious (in my body mostly, like I can't breath at times)

Are you taking thyroid? I can also relate to this from taking too many metabolic stimulators. Otherwise, it may too much lactic acid buildup which I think others have said here. But also ruling out asthma or lung issues is important

I also agree with everyone saying to take a break. No need to exercise when you don't feel well. Maybe walks outside in the sunlight would be a better form of exercise for now. You should feel a very strong itch to go back to the gym with lots of energy to handle your workouts before going back to it

 

[username]

I would advise to listen to your body and take a break. "just eat more and keep doing it" might not be the best idea right now.

I hear you. I aim to keep lowering the intensity of the workouts before I stop outright. I love the workouts and am a bit attached to my physique.

STOP MEDITATING NOW! How many more cases of people with these exact same symptoms do we need to see before some credence is given to the idea that meditation can seriously harm you? I’m not 100% saying that the meditation is causing this, but I am saying that it is a very real possibility and I’ve seen too many people get harmed by the practice. Try cutting the meditation for some time and see if it helps. Nothing else you’re doing really seems all that odd besides potentially having an allergy to something you’re eating. Why are you still meditating if after doing so you are mentally and physically worse than somebody who doesn’t?

I appreciate your concern. I have gone without meditating many times of the past years to see what it is like, and I do not think that it is doing me harm. I can look back on times that meditation was a part of my life and I can easily remember being more at peace during these times. Again, thank you for your concern.

I agree that given my diet and lifestyle it makes little sense that I am struggling, but I have had many difficulties with fatigue and digestion since I was very young. I
never got to the bottom of this.

Do you have anything intra-workout as well. With long rests, such a workout can easily become draining. Do you go to failure on each set?

I do not have intra-workout food. I used to go to failure... and also recover quite well. I used to add weight to my pull ups and do sets of 10... now I just do 7 reps without weight when I can do about 15 reps when I am fresh. So I am definitely taking it easy relative to my capabilities.

how is your breathing speed before sleep? Are you sensitive low environment sound before bed? Buteyko helps to cortisol down and relaxing. Emf sources are breaking down sleep quality, I tried all supplements and medications, the best worked one for me is 125mg aspirin+250mg niacin(nicotinic acid)+250mg ascorbic acid as soon as fall asleep. Cyproheptadine can help low appetite.

Hmmm... I am not sure about my breath around sleep. I will try and observe it. It is probably quite shallow as it is most of the time. I wonder if I need to lower or up cortisol, as I am tired so much of the time. I will try your supplement stack before bed. Where do you get Cyproheptadine? I am a perpetual tourist in Costa Rica and it's not always easy to get quality supplements or other compounds.

Yes. Wim Hof is kind of a gimmick and the exercise isn't extensive enough to result in improved co2 tolerance. It takes about 1-2 hours of daily breath training (or cardio) to keep progressing forward. This may sound like a lot, but once you learn to gently reduce your breathing and relax, you can easily rack in multiple hours while watching TV, surfing the internet etc. It will also feel good in your body so you will want to do it. Unlike Wim Hof, Buteyko will never be uncomfortable or stressful. It will hardly even feel like you're doing anything at all, other than relaxing.


It's one thing to be muscularly adapted to exercise, and another to have good baseline cellular oxygenation. Consider that even 10% of competitive athletes have asthma because their co2 conditioning is so poor.

Thank you for this suggestion. I will be trying Buteyko method for sure! I went for a run for the first time in a while this morning. You believe this will help because of the breathing? I really hope so, as I miss running.

 

[username]

High chest fat sounds like high estrogen, and high belly fat sounds like high cortisol. I think tests for those as well as prolactin would be good


Could be too much liquid and too little salt, I can definitely relate


Are you taking thyroid? I can also relate to this from taking too many metabolic stimulators. Otherwise, it may too much lactic acid buildup which I think others have said here. But also ruling out asthma or lung issues is important

I also agree with everyone saying to take a break. No need to exercise when you don't feel well. Maybe walks outside in the sunlight would be a better form of exercise for now. You should feel a very strong itch to go back to the gym with lots of energy to handle your workouts before going back to it

I agree that I probably have high estrogen and high cortisol. I just don't know how to test for them.

I will consider lowering my liquid intake.

I am not currently taking thyroid. Are you suggesting that I shouldn't? I think I show signs of hypo and have for most of my life. I have cold hands all the time, thin eyebrows, and fatigue/depression that seems to come from no where. I have also had serious issue with digestion for most of my life.

I really don't think I can take a break entirely. I can cut back the intensity signicantly, but my workout time is shared with people who I am very fond of, and it is a very special time to me. My physique is also important to me (only I have the slightly stubborn locations we discussed). I do walk outside all the time. I live near the beach on the caribbean in Costa Rica.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I am similar to you, only that I train harder than you. Used to train 5 days / week, high-volume, bodybuilding workouts.
Currently I train 4 times / week, 90 min / workout, the first exercise in every workout is a 5 x 5, so I reckon I train at 85% 1RM.
I also go 1 rep short of failure on all exercises. 4 x 8-12, 4 x 10-15 rep ranges.
Started this week with Leg day, it was brutal.

 

[Frostee]

I am not currently taking thyroid. Are you suggesting that I shouldn't?

No because I don't know you. If it wasn't clear I was trying to tell my story of taking thyroid for me caused a feeling of always out of breath, probably due to hyperthyroidism. But I'm not suggesting you're any of those

I have cold hands all the time, thin eyebrows, and fatigue/depression that seems to come from no where. I have also had serious issue with digestion for most of my life.

You should really investigate your digestion, I have seen many correlations with digestion and depression. Hans has many articles on digestion I believe

I really don't think I can take a break entirely

this is a direct quote from your first post "I feel absolutely crazy regardless of the exercise. It just makes things worse" I think myself and others are just helping you realize what you already know

 

[Unknownuser]

Also look into mast cell activation syndrome and histamine intolerance. I (guess) have both and I feel horrible after any type of excercise.

Edit: I get this almost over night in 2012 after 3 months of chronic stress. I think there is something wrong with the adrenals and liver. So the body (liver) cant deal with the lactase that is released from the muscles after a workout. At least that's my theory. I also feel like my body is not getting enough oxygen. I used to get migraines at least once a week the last 4-5 years. But for 3 weeks I am migraine free. I started injecting B1 three weeks ago and think that stopped the migraines. Because other than that I do nothing different.

 

[AlexR]

I appreciate your concern. I have gone without meditating many times of the past years to see what it is like, and I do not think that it is doing me harm. I can look back on times that meditation was a part of my life and I can easily remember being more at peace during these times. Again, thank you for your concern.

You are clearly not more at peace because of the meditation. After reading your post again, it is clear that this isn’t an issue that is from the exercise. It is not normal to feel “on the cusp of a panic attack” all the time and that is clearly a sign of your mind being in a state it doesn’t like, not your body. You don’t have to take my advice, but I have dealt with people with the exact same symptoms as you and they were avid meditators as well who slowly degraded to the state that you are in. It takes quite some time for the brain to readjust, if it even can on its own depending on the severity, in order to revert to a state more like the one you were in before meditation and when you were healthy. I’ve been in your spot before, albeit not from meditation, but the wild goose chase I see people here sending you on is most likely not going to fix your problems as I’ve been on it and it wasted a few years and didn’t achieve anything. I would suggest you first look into any food allergies, second look into the DNRS program as I’ve heard amazing things from it, or if you degrade to a point that’s unbearable, look into neurofeedback as that is what I did to cure my fibromyalgia, adrenaline spikes, and severe food allergies.

 

[Llta123]

I've had something similar where I'd completely crash after going to the gym, feeling really ***t for a day or so. Unless it was a complete coincidence, I fixed the problem in a few days by supplementing salt. Working out must've caused some electrolyte imbalance, even though I normally eat a decent amount of salt in my diet. Could be worth a try.

 

[andrewdcjr]

I experience this a lot as well, it’s really frustrating as I love being active. Especially when I do long cardio like cycling I will hardly sleep at night and if I do I Feel exhausted the next day. The day after exercise I feel drained, not sore just super exhausted. I notice its worse when I eat a lot of sugar and saturated fat (contrary to Peat) especially right before bed. The only remedy I’ve found is cutting back on exercise unfortunately. Open to suggestions as well from others

 

[TheSir]

Thank you for this suggestion. I will be trying Buteyko method for sure! I went for a run for the first time in a while this morning. You believe this will help because of the breathing? I really hope so, as I miss running.

It should, especially if you ensure that you are nasally breathing the whole time. Watch out for signs of stress and fatigue though, given your state of health. Begin gently and build up from there. You should exercise only to an extent that allows you to feel better after exercise, not worse. This is in line with how Peat would recommend one to exercise too.

 

[TheSir]

If meditation can amplify the effect of trauma, and life is inherently traumatic, then meditation should not be recommended as something safe. This isn’t hard to understand. Yes, being three standard deviations away from normal prefrontal activation is a bad thing and it shows in people who have it and they suffer greatly. A monk’s life is highly romanticized and there is a lot of bias when they are used as examples of the beneficial effects of meditation. It’s not clear that the lives they lead are better than those who don’t and it’s not clear that borrowing their practices in a context outside of a monastery is a good thing. I’ve seen way too many people who were perfectly normal before meditation and then experience severe and debilitating symptoms eerily similar to those of the OP. I’m not going to ignore my firsthand evidence and experience because society has romanticized meditation and monks.

Naturally everything has its risks. All evidence, however, points that meditation is largely safe when done in reasonable amounts. Since you refuse to address most of my questions, you leave me to assume that the people you dealt with had been partaking in extensive meditative practice -- which is a vastly different pursuit than meditating less than an hour a day. What you are doing is not unlike demonizing exercising because powerlifters destroy their bodies. It's a little disappointing, considering your concern over bias.