Yogurt/Probiotics after a round of Antibiotics?

[narouz]

@Suikerbuik
"Life is too complex for human beings to completely understand at this point in time. Science likes to work with 1 variable and sometimes 2, but this is not how nature works and thus we lack complete knowlegde."

I do want to avoid coming off as a tight-assed old fuddy-duddy here.
Nor do I mean to be argumentive.
I appreciate the elucidation, Suiderbuik! :)

But...wouldn't you agree that Peat, for instance,
has gone a good ways--a long ways--
beyond: "Life is too complex for human beings to completely understand at this point in time"?
And just leaving it there then off to painting?
Hundreds of rational, scientific essays, interviews.
And has he not done so without being "reductionistic"...?
At least not reductionistic in the sense he himself intends
when he makes that general critique of contemporary medical/pharm "science"?

Suikerbuik
"Nourishing life is the basics for life to flourish and evolve (road to complete knowlegde), thus not reductionistic."

Again, with utmost respect :) :
There are many people out there trying, in some romantic way
to "nourish life"--
running for hours,
doing all out sprints 'til exhaustion,
consuming smoothies of raw kale and fish oil,
devotedly not killing animals and instead eating raw crucifers, legumes, and soy milk...
etc, etc, etc...

...All of them with a very strong feeling
that they are "nourishing their life."

Have they avoided "reductionism"...?
Are they the model?

Suikerbuik
"However determing what eating well is and how to nourish life to full extent is a question without definitve answer because this has been established in a reductionistic way of understanding."

Should we reduce the discussion
to either/or?
Either we know everything?
or,
if we don't know everything, we know nothing? :)

Suikerbuik
"Someone's feeling however is worth gold."

I agree, to some degree.
But...aren't there millions of our fellow humans, see above--
sprinting, sweating, panting, stuffing themselves with fish oils, etc--
whose genuine, heartfelt feeling, would be were you to ask them,
that they feel wonderful, full of life, flourishing...?

Again, thank you for your thoughts.
I don't mean to be bitchy.

 

[narouz]

@narouz

I think 3 days of tetracycline has done what it supposed to do.
You are supposed to feel better after this course.
Idea is to lower bacteria count and especially bad ones.
Now you can go back to regular peating. I would not waste time on
kefir and yogurt. Just drinking milk will supply enough food to good bacteria.

Thanks, Mittir.
Actually--too soon to really judge--
but I am noticeably warmer.
Something had happened to my metabolism within the last 6 months or so.
My pulse rate was decent--high 70's to low 80's--
but my temperatures rarely crept up to or above 98.6.
Very bad lower back aches.

Around noon today I was 98.9 degrees.

Just so I'm understanding your view on this:
-do you imagine my gut is now sterile?
-if so, do you think it will repopulate healthily...just, I guess,
by supporting it will correct Peat foods, light, carrot, etc...?
-would the bacteria I repopulate with...where do they come from?
Remnants in my gut? The air? My cat's fur?

 

[jyb]

I never noticed any changes in my metabolism from tetracyclines, though when I did take them in the past it was not for that purpose and not exactly the same specific drug/doses as recommended here.

 

[Mittir]

@narouz
I do not think you can get your gut sterile from 3 days of tetracycline.
You just have fewer bacteria than before. I would expect some improvement
in digestion now. I hope you used vitamin K during or before you start your tetracycline.
Bad back is possibly a sign of low thyroid function. Are you getting enough calcium?
I am getting pretty good result in terms of allergy and temperature from maintaining
high calcium intake of milk and extra calcium supplement to improve the balance of
calcium to phosphorus. You can join the apple juice tribe, it is a wonderful thing.

 

[Blossom]

Yes, the apple tribe is awesome!

 

[pboy]

I just had some insight...of course it was just taken from the ethers so I don't know how accurate this is...but like, I was thinking...being vegan has helped me have some insight on this. Animals that live on plant foods basically if you add up, especially frugivores like apes...if you add up the nutrients they eat and account for the antinutritional factors it would seem they would be deficient in a lot of things, and would be stunted in growth...they eat raw leaves and fruit that has tannins and seeds and acids and what not. Yet they grow big and strong and don't show nutritional deficiency signs, and don't even get infections often (or at all). Something I noticed about a lot of indigenous people, and apes, is that they are skinny yet have a pretty huge gut. Maybe they are more like a ruminant in a sense, where the bacteria is actually doing most of the detoxing of antinutrients and breaking down the food...I don't see how else they could get what they need out of such food. If you put a western city dweller on such a diet theyd have horrible gas and pain, probably start losing bone and protein...like what happens to most people trying to be vegan or raw vegan initially. Perhaps what is going on is that our body preferentially keeps bacteria specifically that help digest/detoxify the foods we are currently eating, that we depend on for nutrition. For example, if youd never eaten brown rice before...and you ate it, the first time your body might not get much out of it, it might even cause a lot of irritation. But say that was all you had and your mind sent the signal that you were going to have to survive on that food, the body will attempt to harbor commensal organisms that help digest that particular food. Many people claim beans stop giving as much gas after a week of or so of eating them. Having access to purified food and milk and stuff, maybe we are actually fragile creatures...albeit with flatter stomachs. So perhaps it would be smart to maintain a diet of the same relatively limited foods, and the body would naturally keep around what helped digest those particular foods. That could also be why people travelling trying foreign food get symptoms the first few days until adjusting. Koji is a mold that naturally eats rice, and its whats used to make soy sauce...which is added to rice dishes, which has been something Asians have had to get nutrition out of to grow and survive. Just say they came to America and had to live on corn, they might get issues initially, but then eventually the body would dump most of the koji and attempt to harbor more of what eats corn rather than rice. This could be a factor behind food cravings...and people liking certain habits and patterns with food. Supposedly people who keep a regular limited diet live longer. It also points to the power of body mind connection, in the sense that...your body is trying to understand what might be available, what you have access to, how dedicated you are to which certain foods...and probably wants a relatively regular equilibrium so it doesn't have to keep adjusting the colony

just speculation

 

[narouz]

@narouz
I do not think you can get your gut sterile from 3 days of tetracycline.
You just have fewer bacteria than before. I would expect some improvement
in digestion now. I hope you used vitamin K during or before you start your tetracycline.
Bad back is possibly a sign of low thyroid function. Are you getting enough calcium?
I am getting pretty good result in terms of allergy and temperature from maintaining
high calcium intake of milk and extra calcium supplement to improve the balance of
calcium to phosphorus. You can join the apple juice tribe, it is a wonderful thing.

In my crazy way of doing things,
creating multiple variables all at once,
so I have no way of scientifically knowing what the hell I did right or wrong...

...one of the things I started doing just yesterday
was joining the apple juice tribe.
Specifically, I joined the Martinelli's Tribe.

Hell...maybe IT is causing my improvement today in temperature!

Among the other variables I created just to make sure I can never know what I'm doing:
-reduced supplements, especially anything containing silica
-stopping Greek yogurt. It is strained 3 times, then I let it warm to room temperature for several hours and was able to strain off quite a lot more whey. But...I figure could be a problem still.
-stopped drinking beer. Every other night or so I'd have couple Heinekins, but...estrogenic...so I stopped.

I added quite a bit of magnesium.
Had added calcium too, but my supp has silica, so I will have to grind eggshells.

Oh, almost forgot:
Have been doing Cyproheptadine for about 10 days now.
About 4 mg at night for about the last 3 nights.

About two weeks ago I checked my thyroid and iron/ferritin labs.
-TSH very low, 0.1 something
-Iron/Ferritin somewhat elevated, tho not sky high like it was 2 years ago.

Donated blood last week.

My suspicion is, had I check prolactin...I bet it would've been high.
Will do that soon.
Thus the Cyproheptadine.

How's that for multiple variables?
So...who knows?!
Maybe things will improve.
Thanks.

 

[jyb]

If you put a western city dweller on such a diet theyd have horrible gas and pain, probably start losing bone and protein...like what happens to most people trying to be vegan or raw vegan initially.

No. Many people eat extremely deficient diets by this forum standards (and food that would make me sick quickly), yet have no apparent health problems (energy, appearance, mood etc). You have to take into account thyroid status, gut, gut bacteria, birth capital (what nutrients and other resources you inherited from the start).

 

[pboy]

that only points more to what I was saying...read it carefully. They are probably fine because they've eaten the same standard foods from birth so they do in fact have a colony that can help digest/detoxify those foods, where as you probably have lost yours by eating pure Peat. But at the same time, you have more potential for a bigger brain and probably have a flatter stomach, less overall endotoxin...more blood flow in the body rather than in the gut. Which would you rather have...the ability to eat SAD food and not have acute reactions, yet be kind of fat (protruded gut), smelly, and overall average in intelligence...or be sensitive to most food, yet not be fat with protruded gut, not smell, and have more blood to the brain? Still getting all the necessary nutrients from this diet...so it seems advantageous and a step in evolution in a sense...the only thing is, we'd me more fragile to drastic changes probably

 

[Such_Saturation]

be kind of fat (protruded gut), smelly, and overall average in intelligence

Sounds like a monkey all right You know they can break down cellulose and get sugar from it, and we don't.

 

[Mittir]

In my crazy way of doing things,
creating multiple variables all at once,
so I have no way of scientifically knowing what the hell I did right or wrong...

...one of the things I started doing just yesterday
was joining the apple juice tribe.
Specifically, I joined the Martinelli's Tribe.

Hell...maybe IT is causing my improvement today in temperature!

Among the other variables I created just to make sure I can never know what I'm doing:
-reduced supplements, especially anything containing silica
-stopping Greek yogurt. It is strained 3 times, then I let it warm to room temperature for several hours and was able to strain off quite a lot more whey. But...I figure could be a problem still.
-stopped drinking beer. Every other night or so I'd have couple Heinekins, but...estrogenic...so I stopped.

I added quite a bit of magnesium.
Had added calcium too, but my supp has silica, so I will have to grind eggshells.

Oh, almost forgot:
Have been doing Cyproheptadine for about 10 days now.
About 4 mg at night for about the last 3 nights.

About two weeks ago I checked my thyroid and iron/ferritin labs.
-TSH very low, 0.1 something
-Iron/Ferritin somewhat elevated, tho not sky high like it was 2 years ago.

Donated blood last week.

My suspicion is, had I check prolactin...I bet it would've been high.
Will do that soon.
Thus the Cyproheptadine.

How's that for multiple variables?
So...who knows?!
Maybe things will improve.
Thanks.

I could never introduce so many things at the same time.
It is more important for me to know what is working than to feel
better. I do not know how much time you have to spare for cooking and
preparing food. You can not trust any store bought foods.
If you can make your own farmer's cheese or greek yogurt.

For me apple juice was the missing piece. I always drink a cup of AJ
whenever i eat starchy food like rice, it helps to burn the glucose.
I am allergic to egg shell powder. If it does not feel good you can buy
oyster shell powder or food grade slaked lime from amazon.
I think i do better with slaked lime+ citric acid/vinegar than
calcium carbonate. It is better not to take more than 500 mg of
calcium at a time. I used to feel tired after eating meat of any kind
and since i started adding calcium after eating meat i do not feel that
any more. Calcium to phosphorus ratio of each meal is important.
Are you taking vitamin D? If you can, check both PTH and prolactin.

I take cyproheptadine twice a day, 1 mg in the morning and 1 mg before bed.
Half life of cypro is 8 hours, so you will get a steady level with divided dose.
It has been truly miraculous stuff. I salute whoever invented this .
You can post a cronometer chart to see if you are getting required nutrients
and if there is any problematic food in the chart.

 

[LucyL]

The otherway to establish good gut flora is plain old dirt. Dr. Art Ayers at the Cooling Inflammation blog advocates barely rinsing off fresh picked vegetables, playing with a dirty dog and stuff like that for a natural approach to gut flora.

Thanks, LucyL-

I see where you're coming from, but...
I would be scared to go out in my backyard and snack on some dirt now. :)

My general outlook now, after just finishing 4 days of tetracycline,
is that my now sterile (?) bowels
may also, necessarily, be undefended bowels.
And to eat dirt and unwashed veggies...uh...just can't go there.

But I do take your drift.

(Maybe I should journey to 10,000 meters
and consume heavenly dirt from there...)

I wouldn't trust the dirt in my backyard either :) It has a funny smell sometimes - makes me wonder just what the previous owner did in it - and one of my kids breaks out in hives if she gets too much mud on her. Plus my raw fed dog poops in it... But. If you have a farmers market that sells local produce, that's where I would look for the freshly picked carrots/ radishes / greens etc that you could just rinse and eat. Fear is a powerful thing. I think just being afraid of what you eat can do more damage to your gut than the possible toxins on the food itself.

I don't think you can achieve a sterile gut through one round of one antibiotic. The problems occur when one species gets out of control growth. Hence the recommendations for soil ingestion - the sheer variety of bacteria is beneficial.

Here's a mouse study on prolonged antibiotic use http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708550/

 

[Suikerbuik]

I am not against redcutionism. This model is meant to gain reproduceable understanding and is the only reliable system we have at this point in time (provided people don't abuse or judge based on EGO, this unfortunately is happening all too frequently).

But...wouldn't you agree that Peat, for instance,
has gone a good ways--a long ways--
beyond: "Life is too complex for human beings to completely understand at this point in time"?
And just leaving it there then off to painting?
Hundreds of rational, scientific essays, interviews.
And has he not done so without being "reductionistic"...?
At least not reductionistic in the sense he himself intends
when he makes that general critique of contemporary medical/pharm "science"?

Peat’s stuff is awesome and as I said multiple times else where :). But it’s absolutely still work in progress and certainly not complete, if it’s complete then it means there are no more questions or it has all the answers.
Peat’s work reduces to important pieces that affect health like estrogen, carbon dioxide, serotonin, nitric oxide etc. However behind these terms, I can assure you, there’s a huge complexity. Basically all these substances are mediators in an inflammatory response. Polyunsaturated fatty acids is one cause for this inflammatory response, but there are a multidude of reasons for this to happen. I know more are convered in Peat’s work, but it still lacks a lot, including elucidation the interplay between pathways, molecules, etc.

Again, with utmost respect :
There are many people out there trying, in some romantic way
to "nourish life"--
running for hours,
doing all out sprints 'til exhaustion,
consuming smoothies of raw kale and fish oil,
devotedly not killing animals and instead eating raw crucifers, legumes, and soy milk...
etc, etc, etc..

...All of them with a very strong feeling
that they are "nourishing their life.".

Have they avoided "reductionism"...?
Are they the model?

I absolutely agree. There’s a difference between thinking what’s good for you (which can also be read as feeling with your head). Or feeling what’s good for you with your body. The feeling is not a constant and not for everyone the same. It also depends on your current state.

They lost conctact with their nature and began thinking too much from a human perspective (which is indeed reductionistic). Human perspectives often turn out to be wrong too.

Suikerbuik
"However determing what eating well is and how to nourish life to full extent is a question without definitve answer because this has been established in a reductionistic way of understanding."

Should we reduce the discussion
to either/or?
Either we know everything?
or,
if we don't know everything, we know nothing?

Let’s reduce it to the purpose of the universe (at least the way I see it ) According to Peat’s and some other’s work consicousness is in everything. The result of that consiousness has to be life and the purpose of life is experience. So one can ‘reduce’ this to, the purpose of the universe is learning which is ultimately followed by complete knowlegde.
The best way to get there is being well-fed, otherwise disease follows. However if disease follows this is not something bad, it put’s you on track again, and you learn a lot. There’s no good or bad in the universe and it does not Judge. Reductionism doesn't say anything about good or bad, it's just how you approach things.
If you see this all reductionistic than we reduce the discussion to: we know everything?

I agree, to some degree.
But...aren't there millions of our fellow humans, see above--
sprinting, sweating, panting, stuffing themselves with fish oils, etc--
whose genuine, heartfelt feeling, would be were you to ask them,
that they feel wonderful, full of life, flourishing...?

My answer is in the above.

 

[narouz]

I could never introduce so many things at the same time.
It is more important for me to know what is working than to feel
better. I do not know how much time you have to spare for cooking and
preparing food. You can not trust any store bought foods.
If you can make your own farmer's cheese or greek yogurt.

For me apple juice was the missing piece. I always drink a cup of AJ
whenever i eat starchy food like rice, it helps to burn the glucose.
I am allergic to egg shell powder. If it does not feel good you can buy
oyster shell powder or food grade slaked lime from amazon.
I think i do better with slaked lime+ citric acid/vinegar than
calcium carbonate. It is better not to take more than 500 mg of
calcium at a time. I used to feel tired after eating meat of any kind
and since i started adding calcium after eating meat i do not feel that
any more. Calcium to phosphorus ratio of each meal is important.
Are you taking vitamin D? If you can, check both PTH and prolactin.

I take cyproheptadine twice a day, 1 mg in the morning and 1 mg before bed.
Half life of cypro is 8 hours, so you will get a steady level with divided dose.
It has been truly miraculous stuff. I salute whoever invented this .
You can post a cronometer chart to see if you are getting required nutrients
and if there is any problematic food in the chart.

Thanks a million, Mittir.
Yeah...I guess that's why my health is going the wrong direction,
and yours the right.

I'd like to respond more fully when I get some time,
but I just noticed something interesting
that may be a clue.

Back about 1 and 1/2 years ago, I was doing some workworking,
and got a bunch of sawdust in my nose.
I took a handkerchief and stuck part of it in my nostril to clean it out.
I nicked the inside of my nose--nothing much.

But: the little scratch would never completely heal and go away.
I was very careful with it, cleaning it multiple times everyday with saline.
Topical antibiotic sometimes.
It was not infected or painful.
Just never would go away.

Just now I notice it is gone.
I have to think it was the antibiotics...

 

[narouz]

I am not against redcutionism. This model is meant to gain reproduceable understanding and is the only reliable system we have at this point in time (provided people don't abuse or judge based on EGO, this unfortunately is happening all too frequently).

Thanks S! I think I see where you're coming from now. :)

I thought at first that you were, like many on the forum,
arguing against the whole idea of generalization.
Generalization=Dogma=Evil.

In my view, and perhaps in yours,
generalizing is indispensable.
Just shouldn't be regarded or employed as a prison... :)

 

[narouz]

I wouldn't trust the dirt in my backyard either :) It has a funny smell sometimes - makes me wonder just what the previous owner did in it - and one of my kids breaks out in hives if she gets too much mud on her. Plus my raw fed dog poops in it... But. If you have a farmers market that sells local produce, that's where I would look for the freshly picked carrots/ radishes / greens etc that you could just rinse and eat. Fear is a powerful thing. I think just being afraid of what you eat can do more damage to your gut than the possible toxins on the food itself.

I don't think you can achieve a sterile gut through one round of one antibiotic. The problems occur when one species gets out of control growth. Hence the recommendations for soil ingestion - the sheer variety of bacteria is beneficial.

Here's a mouse study on prolonged antibiotic use http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708550/

Thanks, LL :)

You know, both you and Mittir have noted something simple
that I'd never considered:
that my round of antibiotics would not completely sterilize my gut.

It wasn't exactly that I really thought it would be absolutely sterilized either, I guess.
But my general notion was that pharma antibiotics,
if taken at high dosage for a long time...
well, I've always thought of them as The Nuclear Option.
Sherman's March.
Etc.
That's why I've always tried to avoid them when possible.

Maybe I've been a bit blinded because of that.

I pictured my bacteria denuded gut as defenseless against
the first ISIS-like bacteria to wander into it. :P

 

[pboy]

ive 'reduced' wheat from my diet...but I see what people mean when they say reductionism is bad, as in don't forget to look at the bigger picture and realize you are just one part of a whole and may not fully understand everyone or everything else and its all good, but at the same time obviously we have to do a LOT of reducing in general as human beings just to optimize or even live

 

[Such_Saturation]

Isn't the reduced view complementary to the holistic view? They are complementary. Reductionism is thinking that the reduced view can eventually take over the holistic view without changing its nature when it is complete (i.e. The whole is not other than the sum of its parts).

 

[Mittir]

Here's a mouse study on prolonged antibiotic use http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708550/

I just had a quick look at the study. They did not use minocycline or
other type of tetracycline in their regiment. Here is a quote from the study

Four different antibiotic regimens were used to treat mice:
control (no antibiotics),
streptomycin (0.5 g/250 ml drinking water),
streptomycin-bacitracin (0.5 g of each/250 ml drinking water),
vancomycin (0.125 g)-neomycin (0.25 g)-metronidazole (0.25 g)-ampicillin (0.25 g, combined in 250 ml water).
These are drugs and combinations that have been commonly used to disrupt intestinal microbial ecology (5, 8, 31, 47).

RP mentioned in a KMUD interview that Flagyl (metronidazole) is a poison.
In another place he mentioned that tetracyline is the safest antibiotics.
He recommends anti-inflammatory antibiotics like minocyline.
In some correspondence he recommended both tetracycline or penicillin.
In most places he recommends minocycline/tetracycline. In this study
4th group used both penicillin and metronidzole with 2 other antibiotics.
It is impossible to know if penicillin or the other antibiotics were increasing
salmonella. I think a study showing Tetracyline's effect on bad bacteria
would be more useful.

Here is a quote from RP

Anthraquinones, because of the presence of several oxygen molecules, had low electron densities and were stable. The tetracyclines, with related structure, have some similar properties, and are antiinflammatory, as well as antibiotic.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ca ... buse.shtml

A few decades ago, when rosacea was believed to be the result of a local infection, antibiotics were used to treat it, and some of them, including tetracycline, helped. It was discovered that some antibiotics have anti-inflammatory actions, apart from their germicidal effects, and now it is very common to prescribe the chronic use of tetracycline to suppress symptoms.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

Here is a RP quote on allergy to penicillin. This can probably explain narouz's bad
experience with 1500 mg of penicillin experiment.

When people speak of an allergy to progesterone (or even to penicillin) they generally are not aware of the presence of a very toxic solvent.(5) For a time, progesterone was often sold dissolved in benzyl benzoate. The Physician's Desk Reference warned of possible allergic reactions to progesterone. Now, it is supposedly sold dissolved in vegetable oil, with about 10% benzyl alcohol as--supposedly--a “bacteriostatic agent.”

 

[narouz]

Here is a quote from RP

Anthraquinones, because of the presence of several oxygen molecules, had low electron densities and were stable. The tetracyclines, with related structure, have some similar properties, and are antiinflammatory, as well as antibiotic.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ca ... buse.shtml

A few decades ago, when rosacea was believed to be the result of a local infection, antibiotics were used to treat it, and some of them, including tetracycline, helped. It was discovered that some antibiotics have anti-inflammatory actions, apart from their germicidal effects, and now it is very common to prescribe the chronic use of tetracycline to suppress symptoms.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

Here is a RP quote on allergy to penicillin. This can probably explain narouz's bad
experience with 1500 mg of penicillin experiment.

When people speak of an allergy to progesterone (or even to penicillin) they generally are not aware of the presence of a very toxic solvent.(5) For a time, progesterone was often sold dissolved in benzyl benzoate. The Physician's Desk Reference warned of possible allergic reactions to progesterone. Now, it is supposedly sold dissolved in vegetable oil, with about 10% benzyl alcohol as--supposedly--a “bacteriostatic agent.”

How can Ray Peat know Everything...!? :)
I'd never seen that about penicillin.