Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

Broken man

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Well, maybe, but as Peat said, lactic acid will negatively affect any tissue it comes into contact with. Might be fine for occasional use, but I was trying to use it as a daily protein source. GI tract is a lot happier these last few days.
He has true with lactic acid but pls search for "lactic ACID" by member Travis. I remember a post when He calculated how much lactic ACID you Will digest And IT should be metabolised withour problems. If its not, your liver Is bad.
 
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Dr. Peat said that greek yogurts are all lower in lactic acid. The liquid is strained out, which carries a lot of the lactic acid out of the yogurt.
 
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tankasnowgod

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He has true with lactic acid but pls search for "lactic ACID" by member Travis. I remember a post when He calculated how much lactic ACID you Will digest And IT should be metabolised withour problems. If its not, your liver Is bad.

Dr. Peat said that greek yogurts are all lower in lactic acid. The liquid is strained out, which carries a lot of the lactic acid out of the yogurt.

I hear what both of you are saying, but I don't think it had to do with my liver, as I would get a sluggish feeling in my stomach and intestines very soon after eating it. And yeah, greek yogurts may be lower in lactic acid, but this still might have been too much. I also don't know how consistent commercial brands of greek yogurt are. It might have also been something else in the yogurt, but whatever, I stopped eating it, and have felt so much better with what I've replaced it with. Issue solved, from my point of view, no reason to over analyze.

Anyway, this is veering off the original topic, and I don't plan on going back to eating large amounts of greek yogurt daily anytime soon. Moving on.
 

Broken man

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I hear what both of you are saying, but I don't think it had to do with my liver, as I would get a sluggish feeling in my stomach and intestines very soon after eating it. And yeah, greek yogurts may be lower in lactic acid, but this still might have been too much. I also don't know how consistent commercial brands of greek yogurt are. It might have also been something else in the yogurt, but whatever, I stopped eating it, and have felt so much better with what I've replaced it with. Issue solved, from my point of view, no reason to over analyze.

Anyway, this is veering off the original topic, and I don't plan on going back to eating large amounts of greek yogurt daily anytime soon. Moving on.
Okay, for the probiotics, apple cider vinegar is good, I add it to alot of meals. Drinking alcohol is giving me tons of energy when I am using it. I am drinking only occasionally but wanted to try it because of Travis.
 
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I hear what both of you are saying, but I don't think it had to do with my liver, as I would get a sluggish feeling in my stomach and intestines very soon after eating it. And yeah, greek yogurts may be lower in lactic acid, but this still might have been too much. I also don't know how consistent commercial brands of greek yogurt are. It might have also been something else in the yogurt, but whatever, I stopped eating it, and have felt so much better with what I've replaced it with. Issue solved, from my point of view, no reason to over analyze.

Anyway, this is veering off the original topic, and I don't plan on going back to eating large amounts of greek yogurt daily anytime soon. Moving on.

It’s on topic. I may get Greek yogurt and pasteurize it. I will try this soon.
 
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tankasnowgod

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It’s on topic. I may get Greek yogurt and pasteurize it. I will try this soon.

Yeah, it might have been the active cultures, but I've also heard that most probiotics in yogurt are dead by the time they reach the consumer...... but maybe that's not as true for some brands. I would notice that after using a few days, there would also be liquid that would show up in the container, I assumed more whey, so maybe the bacteria was still active. Curious how this goes for you, but I'm done eating greek yogurt daily for the foreseeable future.
 
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Makes sense. There is a German drug called Hylak Forte. HYLAK FORTE, POR SOL 100ML, State Institute for Drug Control It is a by product of metabolism of some probiotic bacteria strains. It does not have living bacteria. I'va taken multiple courses of this drug in Europe, I could not remember the exact result I had because I was a kid and my health issues just started like snow avalanche in the middle of desert. I was so bad.
 

Broken man

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Makes sense. There is a German drug called Hylak Forte. HYLAK FORTE, POR SOL 100ML, State Institute for Drug Control It is a by product of metabolism of some probiotic bacteria strains. It does not have living bacteria. I'va taken multiple courses of this drug in Europe, I could not remember the exact result I had because I was a kid and my health issues just started like snow avalanche in the middle of desert. I was so bad.
I am from country where there Is huge advertisement for this product And IT seems that IT Is helpful for some people.
 
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tankasnowgod

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Okay, last hit on the Greek Yogurt, for me..... For context, I was using it for Breakfast at work. Recently, I has been using about 300-400g in the morning, which worked out to two of those 2 pound tubs a week. Possibly part of the issue, I don't know. But that's what I used to use for cottage cheese, mainly for protein.

Anyway, there are a few articles like this on the paper that comes with Fage yogurt- https://www.thekitchn.com/why-does-greek-yogurt-have-paper-on-top-172901

I always threw it away, so maybe I was getting a lot of excess whey. Not sure. Did notice that liquid would form in the container after a day or two. Maybe that's a sign the probiotics were still "live," and if so, their "not deadness" could have been part of the problem for me.

Lastly, here's an article where they tested pH of various yogurts- Are All Yogurts Created Equal? | Dropping Acid: The Reflux Diet Cookbook & Cure | Blog Fage is less acidic than others tested, but I think most cheeses have a higher pH.
 

lvysaur

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just make your own yogurt, and ferment it for a short time so that it still retains some sugar.

yogurt actually tastes really good this way, as opposed to the lactic crap from the store.
 

Amazoniac

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Infections that are challenging to clear tend the body to increase tolerance towards them when it's sensed that they're not immediate threats, you start weighing how much inflammation is being productive. Over time, it has to be a burden to harbor a lot of these. Now if there's a shock, it can be enough stimulus to make become intolerant and freak out on every potential threat, interpreting as having no choice but to get rid of them. It's forceful way out of dormancy.

burtlan's last girlfriend didn't disclose that she was moving in, she told him that her apartment was underwentening renovation, and it was, she wasn't being deceiving, it was a way that her unconscious found to deal with the invitation that had never arrived. Only when he spotted her family members carrying their suitcases in his home, passing through him as if he didn't exist, that he had 'the talk'. What you don't know is that this last part was just a nightmare that he had after skipping the meal before bed on a cold night.
 
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Amazoniac

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- Mucus barrier, mucins and gut microbiota: the expected slimy partners?

"[..]another key bacteria modifying the mucus layer is A. muciniphila. Indeed, during high-fat diet feeding the mice have a thinner inner mucus layer than the control group, while in mice treated with an high-fat diet plus viable A. muciniphila supplementation, the opposite effect is observed (ie, a restored mucus layer thickness) (figure 5).[52] Interestingly, although this bacterium is known as a mucus degrader, supplementation with A. muciniphila increased number of goblet cells and the production of antimicrobial peptides, such as Reg3g and LyZ1. Altogether, these findings suggest that A. muciniphila communicates with host cells and eventually stimulates the production of mucus (figure 5).[52, 85–88] It is worth noting that this important effect on the number of goblet cells and the reinforcement of the gut barrier was also observed when A. muciniphila was killed by pasteurisation but not when killed by autoclaving.[89] Among the potential mechanisms, it has been shown that A. muciniphila expresses specific proteins on its outer membrane, such as the protein Amuc_1100. This protein is resistant to the heating process and remain in the active conformation.[89] Interestingly, treating mice with only this protein and without the bacteria also replicated the effects of the bacteria on the increased number of goblet cells and the reinforcement of the gut barrier.[89] Strikingly, this protein binds and activates TLR2, thereby possibly explaining the effects of the bacteria on both the regulation of immunity and the reinforcement of the gut barrier (figure 4). Therefore, suggesting that the viability of the bacteria is not required to observe the beneficial effects. Altogether, this suggests that the regulation of mucus layer thickness by A. muciniphila is likely more complex than the ‘simple’ active degradation and utilisation of mucus glycans by this bacteria and also involves specific microbial compounds."​
 

Perry Staltic

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I'm not seeing the distinction being made between L-lactate and D-lactate. Some probiotic bacteria only produce L-lactate - like b. coagulens, l. bulgaricus, streptococcus thermophilus (the latter two are used in some yogurts) - which is easily metabolized. D-lactate is not easily metabolized and consequently can accumulate causing acidosis. Supposedly b. coagulens populates the small intestine and helps to digest carbs there, which would prevent them from reaching the large intestine where they are fermented by D-lactate producing bacteria. So in that sense they would appear to be very beneficial.
 

OliviaD

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One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some beneficial substances, but that all bacteria produce negative products as well, like lactic acid and endotoxin.

In another thread, I heard this quote, where Peat speaks favorably of Lactobacillus-



Of course, the thing that stuck out to me is that Lactobacillus is anti-inflammatory, EVEN IF IT'S DEAD! Well, looking around a bit, there is at least a little interest in using dead lactobacillis in people who have digestive issues-

Probiotics: Better off dead?

"Joseph Neu of the University of Florida School of Medicine and his colleagues reviewed several studies that compared health impacts using live microbes versus those that had first been killed by heat or ultraviolet radiation. The dead bugs were just as effective as live ones, they report, but “considerably safer for the host.” For instance, they appeared less likely to provoke an overzealous immune response.

One study worked with Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, better known as LGG. Researchers administered high doses of the bacterial strain to human cells that normally line the interior surface of the gut. When stimulated in a way that simulated the presence of a pathogen, the gut cells revved up a bigger inflammatory response than when the probiotics were absent. Both live and dead LGG induced fairly comparable responses — ones that would be expected to improve the gut’s ability to fight infection."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2000.10718084

"A number of studies using animal models and clinical studies in humans have confirmed the beneficial effect of such fermented products in case of lactose intolerance, viral diarrhea or antibiotics-associated diarrhea. The mechanisms by which lactic acid bacteria exert their effects are multiple. Bacterial lactase improves the absorption of lactose, but fermented products slow down the intestinal transit facilitating the action of residual intestinal lactase. The transient passage of lactic acid bacteria in the digestive tract may represent a microbial barrier against the development of pathogenic bacteria, probably due to the release of compounds contributing to the maintenance of colonization resistance to pathogens. The beneficial effects are mainly described in the presence of live bacteria, but inactivated bacteria may also present preventive or curative capacities in diarrheal diseases. "

I remember from my paleo days that the big "complaint" with probiotic products was that the species were dead and inactive. Far from being a problem, this may have actually been a benefit, and in many species, wouldn't have prevented beneficial effects, and may have contained negatives, such as lactic acid production.

Heat, UV Light, and stomach acid are all things that can help to kill probiotics. So, maybe there is benefit to getting some of the cheap, non-enteric coated lactobacillis products, not keeping them in the fridge, exposing to light, and taking either with a hot substance like coffee, or along with digestive enzymes.

Thoughts? And does anyone know of a product that sells dead or "inactivated" Lactobacillus?

Am I summarizing the basic message here correctly :
1. lactobactcillis, live or dead, are anti-inflammatory. Therefore, supplemental pure lactobacillis would be possibly benefial for inflammatory GI disorders?
 
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tankasnowgod

tankasnowgod

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Am I summarizing the basic message here correctly :
1. lactobactcillis, live or dead, are anti-inflammatory. Therefore, supplemental pure lactobacillis would be possibly benefial for inflammatory GI disorders?
Yep, that's what Peat said.

Interestingly, I have also heard E. D. Weinberg state that certain types of lactobacillus organisms are the only known organisms that don't require iron to live. I wonder if that has something to do with their anti inflammatory effect.
 

OliviaD

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Yep, that's what Peat said.

Interestingly, I have also heard E. D. Weinberg state that certain types of lactobacillus organisms are the only known organisms that don't require iron to live. I wonder if that has something to do with their anti inflammatory effect
 

OliviaD

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Very interesting! Well, after I've absolutely vowed to never use a 'probiotic' ... I see Custom Probiotics (company) offers a single strain powder of lactobacillus.
Also interesting is that I read a book on bowel care by a Bernard Jensen, I believe written in the 50s, or 60s, a long time ago. One of those 'old school' guys , and he recommended lactobacillus supplements. They didn't have the term "probiotic' then.

Although. on the other hand, doesn't mean it will help. I adore Dr. Peat, but so far; his dietary philosophies aren't agreeing much with my system.. or I'm not sure.

I don't know - I'm getting to the point of giving up again. Do you ever find you have times where you learn a lot and think you have some answers, and then reach a point where you feel you know nothing? I've tried so many things to improve my ever worsening GI condition.
 

Kray

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Yep, that's what Peat said.

Interestingly, I have also heard E. D. Weinberg state that certain types of lactobacillus organisms are the only known organisms that don't require iron to live. I wonder if that has something to do with their anti inflammatory effect.
I'm reading this thread and listened to Peat's interview about Lactobacillus. Which one in particular, do you know? There are different species. I want to try what he recommends to treat a persistent skin rash. Is it L. bifidus, rhamnosus, which? Thank you-
 

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