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All Gut Bacteria Dangerous, Its Endotoxin Drives Liver Cancer; Antibiotics Cure

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    As Peat has written many times, there is truly no such thing as “beneficial” gut bacteria as long as they are capable of producing endotoxin (LPS). And since most bacterial species known to colonize the gut can produce LPS when exposed to undigested food or mechanical stimulation (stretching or even bouncing the intestine through say running), the conclusion that one could make is that all gut bacteria can be pathogenic. I already posted a study showing that probiotics are dangerous and some doctors call for them to be regulated like drugs.

    The study below corroborates once again that gut bacteria is pathogenic, at least as far as liver cancer is concerned, and shows that administration of antibiotics (tetracyclines anyone?) is curative in the majority of the cases. Since vitamin K2 (MK-4) is expected to be approved soon for treating liver cancer (HCC) it suggests that it may have some antibiotic effects of its own. In addition, it also suggests that quinones like emodin with known anti-endotoxin effects could also be a viable treatment/preventive method for that cancer.

    NLRP12 suppresses hepatocellular carcinoma via downregulation of cJun N-terminal kinase activation in the hepatocyte | eLife

    https://www.mdlinx.com/allergy-immunology/top-medical-news/article/2019/04/16/7564232

    “…To understand why this occurred, the researchers looked at the signals sent by tumor cells in mice with and without the Nlrp12 gene. They found that the JNK (c-Jun N-terminal kinase) pathway—previously shown to be associated with liver cancer—is highly active in liver tumors that lack Nlrp12, Dr. Zaki said. The JNK pathway can be activated by a component of bacterial cell walls called lipopolysaccharide (LPS), he said. Both “good” bacteria—which line the gut and aid in digestion—and “bad” pathogenic bacteria—such as Salmonella or Escherichia colican release LPS, Dr. Zaki explained.”

    “…The LPS can move from the gut to the liver via the bloodstream and contribute to inflammation by setting off the JNK and other signaling pathways. Such transport is much more common in chronically inflamed livers such as those of people suffering from hepatitis or fatty liver disease, he said. The study data suggest that NLRP12 suppresses inflammation caused by gut microbiota and cancer-promoting signals, added Dr. Zaki, a member of the Harold C. Simmons Comprehensive Cancer Center.”

    “…To confirm the gut-liver inflammation-cancer hypothesis, the researchers treated mice with antibiotics to reduce levels of gut bacteria. “Depletion of gut microbiota with antibiotics dramatically reduced tumor growth in mice without Nlrp12,” Dr Zaki said. “This study suggests that NLRP12 could be a potential therapeutic target. It also indicates that finding a way to increase NLRP12 in the liver in combination with current immune checkpoint blockade therapies may improve liver cancer treatment.”
     
  2. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Well, there might be one beneficial kind...... dead ones- Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

    I still find it interesting that there is something about even dead lactobacillis that's anti inflammatory. Also, no endotoxin, serotonin, or lactic acid production.
     
  3. Collden

    Collden Member

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    You cant get rid of the bacteria so its better to manage your gut flora so that the good keep the bad in check.

    If there was any validity to this sterile gut BS then we would have seen the positive effects in people that regularly take antibiotics.
     
  4. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Not that they can't be highly toxic in other ways, but I don't think the gram-positive bacteria can produce/release LPS.

    Well, we have. Safe and sane use of antibiotics alleviates almost any problem. Do you want to pretend like there is no evidence for this?
     
  5. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    The last statement is a fallacy. Those that most regularly take antibiotics usually have conditions far worse than the average person to begin with.

    I certainly see improvements when I take antibiotics, such as tetracycline.
     
  6. TeaRex14

    TeaRex14 Member

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    People that regularly take antibiotics are typically always sicker anyways. So it's hard to judge the sterile gut hypothesis by observing a bunch of sick people taking antibiotics. But it makes sense that the upper digestive tract should be sterile. Bacteria should probably only reside in the lower colon areas. I do wonder though, how well OTC antiseptics like oregano oil and garlic extract might compare to something like tetracycline for reducing bacteria. tetracycline is prescription regulated here in the states, as well as most other places probably.
     
  7. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    I guess this study I read just a few days ago fits into this thread (maybe somone already posted it). I believe basically everything that feeds bacteria in your intestine is bad for you in the long-run. Just yesterday, you posted something on the NAFLD and NASH epedemic in young people. I think it has a lot to do with the fiber craziness - so many young "healthy" people are forcing down insane amounts of healthy fiber because everyone knows that it keeps your gut healthy, and produces so much of the good SCFA. I assume the promotion of those fibers might actually be much more detrimental than PUFA intake. Especially butyrate, the new favorite of hipster health gurus, can quickly turn from colon cells' favorite food into carcinogen.

    Cell. 2018 Oct 18;175(3):679-694.e22. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2018.09.004.
    Dysregulated Microbial Fermentation of Soluble Fiber Induces Cholestatic Liver Cancer.
    Singh V1, Yeoh BS2, Chassaing B3, Xiao X4, Saha P1, Aguilera Olvera R4, Lapek JD Jr5, Zhang L6, Wang WB7, Hao S8, Flythe MD9, Gonzalez DJ5, Cani PD10, Conejo-Garcia JR11, Xiong N7, Kennett MJ7, Joe B1, Patterson AD7, Gewirtz AT12, Vijay-Kumar M13.

    Dietary soluble fibers are fermented by gut bacteria into short-chain fatty acids (SCFA), which are considered broadly health-promoting. Accordingly, consumption of such fibers ameliorates metabolic syndrome. However, incorporating soluble fiber inulin, but not insoluble fiber, into a compositionally defined diet, induced icteric hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC). Such HCC was microbiota-dependent and observed in multiple strains of dysbiotic mice but not in germ-free nor antibiotics-treated mice. Furthermore, consumption of an inulin-enriched high-fat diet induced both dysbiosis and HCC in wild-type (WT) mice. Inulin-induced HCC progressed via early onset of cholestasis, hepatocyte death, followed by neutrophilic inflammation in liver. Pharmacologic inhibition of fermentation or depletion of fermenting bacteria markedly reduced intestinal SCFA and prevented HCC. Intervening with cholestyramine to prevent reabsorption of bile acids also conferred protection against such HCC. Thus, its benefits notwithstanding, enrichment of foods with fermentable fiber should be approached with great caution as it may increase risk of HCC.

    The most intriguing and key finding of this study is the absolute requirement of soluble fiber-feeding to develop HCC. We demonstrated that interventions that deplete butyrate-producing bacteria, inhibit gut fermentation, exclude soluble fiber from the diet, or prevent enterohepatic recycling of bileacids, are feasible strategies to mitigate such ICD-induced HCC. The identification of oncogenic bacteria, however, remains elusive and is complicated by the extent to which gutbacteria participate in inter-species cross-feeding of SCFA(Wrzosek et al., 2013). Yet, it is intriguing to note that our observations on the adverse effects of fermentable fiber is not restricted to inulin alone, but broadly applicable to other types of soluble fibers, including pectin and FOS.
     
  8. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    I’m pretty sure both bifido and lactobacillus species dont produce LPS and many of them dont produce histamine or d lactate. Some actually inhibit and block lps and many produce compounds like GABA. They also inhibit more pathogenic strains like gram negative e.coli, klebsiella, psuedomonas, citrobactor, campylobactor, salmonella etc. As was pointed out a small intestine overgrowth may not be ideal but having the populations in the colon may not be such as bad thing. Many people report healing themselves of digestive issues using these species. There are clinical studies using these on IBD patients with success. It seems a combination of these bacteria with antibiotics would be a potent combination overall for someone with IBD or gut issues, however taking them orally may be an issue due to small intestine overgrowth possibility so taking them as an enema may be more feasible.

    I think there may be a difference between isolated soluble fibers like inulin and FOS and something like garlic or a banana. Attempting to avoid soluble fibers, which seems to be implied here, would create a very restrictive diet. Assuming no dysbiosis I’d think fiber from safe foods like fruits, yams, potatoes, roots would have a different effect than the isolated supplemental fibers we are being sold as “prebiotics”.

    Some essential oils are just as potent if not more potent than antibiotics. Oregano, thyme, cinnamon, and lemongrass are some examples with extremely low minimum inhibitory concentrations in ranges from .3% To 5% (v/v).

    If you cant be sterile you might as well choose the least worst option especially if you have a gut issue.
     
  9. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Der einzig wahre:
    - Soluble Fiber Causes Liver Cancer, Insoluble And Antibiotics Prevent/stop It


    Das Problem ist nicht die Buttersäure selbst, sondern wie sie erhalten wurde.

    - Estrogen and brain aging in men and women: Depression, energy, stress

    "Various saturated fatty acids, including butyric, octanoic, and palmitic, have protective effects on mitochondrial respiration."​

    - Coconut Oil

    "Various fractions of coconut oil are coming into use as "drugs," meaning that they are advertised as treatments for diseases. Butyric acid is used to treat cancer, lauric and myristic acids to treat virus infections, and mixtures of medium-chain fats are sold for weight loss. Purification undoubtedly increases certain effects, and results in profitable products, but in the absence of more precise knowledge, I think the whole natural product, used as a regular food, is the best way to protect health."​
     
  10. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Jesus, you can't ever claim credit for posting any good studies, because haidut already posted them long before you started reading them. Why doesn't he ever give some other people a chance to shine? I guess beeing the most beloved supplement manufacturer isn't enough for him - he wants all the glory for himself.

    Was die Buttersäure angeht, bin ich mir noch nicht wirklich sicher. In many in vitro studies high concentrations of butyrate lead to excessive proliferation and cell damage. I recently asked Peat about his opinion on SCFA from fermentation, since he wrote good things about them when he was young and foolish. For example, in Oils in Context he wrote:

    "Several aspects of the immune system are improved by short-chain saturated fats. Their anti-histamine action [39] is probably important, because of histamine's immunosuppressive effects.[40] Unsaturated fats have been found to cause degranulation of mast cells.[41] The short-chain fatty acids normally produced by bacteria in the bowel apparently have a local anti-inflammatory action."
    When I asked him what his current view on SCFA from fermentation is he stated:

    "What I have seen since then has convinced me that the total products of bowel fermentation are more likely to be harmful than beneficial. The pH and oxygen content, balance of innervation, gut circulation, composition of the diet, etc., affect the production of lots of potential toxins, including hydrogen sulfide and methane."

     
  11. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Being able to skip and not having to deal with the fermentation aspect by obtaining these through diet can have a different effect.

    One more comment:
    I was thoughting the other day that perhaps it's a viable approach to try to identify our most problematic fermentable foods and what's the common element in them. Later, try to find out if raw plants containing them improve the situation. If they don't, search if there's anything available on the market that sort of extracts the fermentable component while leaving the antimicrobials, because it's precisely these that will be the most beneficial for targeting the infection, those that protect what yerms are using to thrive.
     
  12. Peater Piper

    Peater Piper Member

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    Effectively worsens my digestion every time. I'm not alone in that regard. I view antibiotics as hit-or-miss as probiotics, quite capable of worsening the intestinal flora landscape.
     
  13. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    I don't see this study posted:
    A Plant Kavalactone Desmethoxyyangonin Prevents Inflammation and Fulminant Hepatitis in Mice

    From the abstract: "...The results showed that LPS/D-GalN−induced hepatic damage is likely through perturbing amino acid metabolism, which leads to decreased pyruvate formation via catalysis of aminotransferases, and [desmethoxyyangonin] DMY treatment can prevent to a certain degree of these alterations in metabolic network in mouse caused by LPS/D-GalN. Mechanistic investigation demonstrated that DMY protects LPS or LPS/D-GalN−induced damages in cell or liver tissues mainly through de-regulating IKK/NFκB and Jak2/STAT3 signaling pathways. This report provides evidence-based knowledge to support the rationale for the use of A. pricei root extract in anti-inflammation and also its new function as hepatoprotetive agent against fulminant hepatitis."

    I didn't hunt for Alpinia pricei Hayata used in this study, but went directly to kava root extract, which contains DMY, (in small doses) to protect liver against LPS.
     
  14. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    Interesting idea. Would you say that plans that decrease lactic acid formation in the body, such as pau d'arco and chinese skullcap, fall in this this category of plants you've been thinkering about?
     
  15. Lilac

    Lilac Member

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    A few days ago, I ate a large bowl of oatmeal (cooked as Peaty as possible) because I love it and figured a bowlful a few times a year can't be too harmful. Maybe 12 hours later, and continuing for two days, my bad tooth started throbbing. It had been in a good state, no sensitivity, for weeks.

    These moments of clarity are not frequent for me. But in this case the oatmeal was clearly the one thing that had changed. I think I will throw the oatmeal away for good now,
     
  16. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    It's not limited to plants, but all foods that have antimicrobial properties. But the exercise here is wondering how your kryptonite nutrient is protected in them.

    As an example, if the person is dealing with problems with tryptophan, which foods contain the highest amounts? How they protect it and prevent microbes from accessing it? Is it possible to remove it from them somehow so that you end up only with these defensive compounds? Would taking some in isolation be beneficial? What about taking the kryptonite nutrient along with broad spectrum antimicrobial substances to expose them from hibernation and make them more susceptible to their action? And so on..

    I still think that getting the intestines moving as vigorously as possible should be the priority.
     
  17. Collden

    Collden Member

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    Antibiotics may be able to temporarily alleviate some issues, however their use is almost invariably associated with worsened health long-term. Is there any evidence at all that regular antibiotic use can improve overall health in an otherwise healthy animal or human?

    Again the issue is that you can't completely get rid of your gut bacteria. Your flora inevitably adapts to antibiotic use, and the resulting changes are typically detrimental. Given that you will always have bacteria and some bacteria are worse than others, the best long-term strategy is to make sure that the least damaging bacteria maintain the upper hand. Your body has evolved numerous ways to maintain the gut flora in such a state, and its better to work with these endogenous mechanisms rather than try to indiscriminately obliterate everything with antibiotics or trying to starve the bacteria with fiber-free diets.
     
  18. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    Aaah.. Thank you for clarification! Following this train of thought, nuts (almonds) maybe an example: They are full of PUFAs but also have much vitamin E to counter-react that.

    Not too vigorously, I suppose :):. Serotonin give me the most vigor (short of diarrhea) after eating a raw salad or such. Hence, nowadays, I am content if I have BM once per day without intestinal discomfort.
     
  19. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Pull up one study that shows that the safe, first generation antibiotics like penicillin or tetracycline are in any way associated with worse health. It's always the much harsher second and third generation.

    And so what if you can never get rid of 100% of gut bacteria? That's a silly reason to avoid antibiotics. It can literally be used as an argument to regularly take antibiotics.
     
  20. Collden

    Collden Member

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    A couple, all antibiotics including penicillin and tetracycline are linked to the development of gut diseases.

    Rosacea, Use of Tetracycline, and Risk of Incident Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Women
    Potential association between the oral tetracycline class of antimicrobials used to treat acne and inflammatory bowel disease. - PubMed - NCBI
    Antibiotic use and inflammatory bowel diseases in childhood

    Antibiotics are an inferior way to manage your intestinal flora since they kill indiscriminately and are likely to cause dysbiosis. In contrast if you harness your endogenous anti-bacteria defences such as ensuring proper bile flow, having fasting/feeding cycles, eating natural fiber-containing foods, keeping your circadian rhythms, etc, you will have a healthier flora since for instance bile preferentially kills the more harmful bacteria and spares the beneficial ones.
     
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