haidut

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As many forum users know, Peat has spoken against the use of probiotics and in some of his articles has even linked lactic acid producing bacteria to auto-immune conditions like such as Lupus, RA, and even MS. While recently he has been recommending a bacteriophage product from LEF, he is still quite cautious about probiotics and seems to still think they may be dangerous as the form of lactic acid they produce is much more toxic than the one our cells produce when under stress.
Mitochondria and mortality
"...Preventively, avoiding foods containing lactic acid, such as yogurt and sauerkraut, would be helpful, since bacterial lactic acid is much more toxic than the type that we form under stress. Avoiding the stress-promoting antithyroid unsaturated oils is extremely important."
Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer
"...Hartmann and Senn used racemic lactate, that is, a mixture of D-lactate and L-lactate. Our own tissues produce mostly L-lactate, but they can produce small amounts of D-lactate; larger amounts are produced by diabetics. Intestinal bacteria can produce large amounts of it, and it has many toxic effects. Methylglyoxal can be formed from either form of lactate, and it is an important factor in the glycation of proteins. It can also be formed from MDA, a product of lipid peroxidation."

At the same time, consuming probiotics and fermented foods continues to be a cornerstone of mainstream nutritional advice, and even official public health policy. Well, the study below may finally reverse the course with its findings that not only are probiotics not beneficial but they may lead to SIBO and many symptoms commonly reported on the forum - i.e. brain fog, fatigue, indigestion, bloating, etc. Those symptoms seem to stem mainly from the ingested bacteria colonizing the intestine and producing D-lactic acid from sugar in the food ingested by a given person. If a person's liver is sluggish or damaged, this lactic acid will likely accumulate and lead to chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc that often leave doctors completely confused and unable to offer any relief. As the study also found, probioticcs can be especially dangerous for people with slow motility, since in such cases the probiotics will end up colonizing the small intestine (SIBO) and not the colon (as intended). While the study lists drugs like opioids, PPI and SSRI as main causes of slower motility, the fact is that motility slows down for virtually everybody with increasing age as a result of slower metabolism. As such, probiotics could be harmful for the majority of people over 35 or anybody else suffering from low metabolism.
The good news is that, just as Peat has been suggesting, a course of antibiotics quickly relieved the symptoms of those people with SIBO and overproducing D-lactate.

Brain fogginess, gas and bloating: a link between SIBO, probiotics and metabolic acidosis
Probiotics shouldn't be treated as a food supplement, according to a new study
Probiotic use is a link between brain fogginess, severe bloating

"...Probiotic use can result in a significant accumulation of bacteria in the small intestine that can result in disorienting brain fogginess as well as rapid, significant belly bloating, investigators report. In a published study of 38 patients, the 30 who reported problems like confusion and difficulty concentrating, in addition to their gas and bloating, were all taking probiotics, some several varieties. When investigators looked further, they found large colonies of bacteria breeding in the patients’ small intestines, and high levels of D-lactic acid being produced by the bacteria lactobacillus’ fermentation of sugars in their food, says Dr. Satish S.C. Rao, director of neurogastroenterology/motility and the Digestive Health Clinical Research Center at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University. D-lactic acid is known to be temporarily toxic to brain cells, interfering with cognition, thinking and sense of time. They found some patients had two to three times the normal amount of D-lactic acid in their blood. Some said their brain fogginess – which lasted from a half hour to many hours after eating – was so severe that they had to quit their jobs."

"...“What we now know is that probiotic bacteria have the unique capacity to break down sugar and produce D-lactic acid. So if you inadvertently colonize your small bowel with probiotic bacteria, then you have set the stage for potentially developing lactic acidosis and brain fogginess,” Rao says. While probiotics can be beneficial in some scenarios, like helping a patient restore his gut bacteria after taking antibiotics, the investigators advised caution against its excessive and indiscriminate use. “Probiotics should be treated as a drug, not as a food supplement,” Rao says, noting that many individuals self-prescribe the live bacteria, which are considered good for digestion and overall health."

"...When brain-foggy patients stopped taking probiotics and took a course of antibiotics, their brain fogginess resolved. Movement of food through the gastrointestinal tract was slow in one third of the brain foggy patients and one fourth of the other group. Slower passage, as well as things like obesity surgery, can increase the chance of bacterial buildup, or SIBO."

"...Probiotic use may be particularly problematic for patients who have known problems with motility, as well as those taking opioids and proton pump inhibitors, which reduce stomach acid secretion and so the natural destruction of excessive bacteria."

"...Probiotics are supposed to work in the colon and not the small intestines or stomach, Rao says, so motility issues can result in problems with probiotic bacteria reaching the proper place. A wide variety of problems, from conditions like diabetes to drugs like antidepressants and minerals like iron, can slow movement and increase the possibility that probiotics will remain too long in the upper gut where they can cause harm, he says."
 

Fractality

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Messages
772
Does this apply to kimchi and its derivative products? I've had the runs a couple times after eating kimchi and kimchi sauce. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad sign...
 

Hans

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Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
2,969
As many forum users know, Peat has spoken against the use of probiotics and in some of his articles has even linked lactic acid producing bacteria to auto-immune conditions like such as Lupus, RA, and even MS. While recently he has been recommending a bacteriophage product from LEF, he is still quite cautious about probiotics and seems to still think they may be dangerous as the form of lactic acid they produce is much more toxic than the one our cells produce when under stress.
Mitochondria and mortality
"...Preventively, avoiding foods containing lactic acid, such as yogurt and sauerkraut, would be helpful, since bacterial lactic acid is much more toxic than the type that we form under stress. Avoiding the stress-promoting antithyroid unsaturated oils is extremely important."
Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer
"...Hartmann and Senn used racemic lactate, that is, a mixture of D-lactate and L-lactate. Our own tissues produce mostly L-lactate, but they can produce small amounts of D-lactate; larger amounts are produced by diabetics. Intestinal bacteria can produce large amounts of it, and it has many toxic effects. Methylglyoxal can be formed from either form of lactate, and it is an important factor in the glycation of proteins. It can also be formed from MDA, a product of lipid peroxidation."

At the same time, consuming probiotics and fermented foods continues to be a cornerstone of mainstream nutritional advice, and even official public health policy. Well, the study below may finally reverse the course with its findings that not only are probiotics not beneficial but they may lead to SIBO and many symptoms commonly reported on the forum - i.e. brain fog, fatigue, indigestion, bloating, etc. Those symptoms seem to stem mainly from the ingested bacteria colonizing the intestine and producing D-lactic acid from sugar in the food ingested by a given person. If a person's liver is sluggish or damaged, this lactic acid will likely accumulate and lead to chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc that often leave doctors completely confused and unable to offer any relief. As the study also found, probioticcs can be especially dangerous for people with slow motility, since in such cases the probiotics will end up colonizing the small intestine (SIBO) and not the colon (as intended). While the study lists drugs like opioids, PPI and SSRI as main causes of slower motility, the fact is that motility slows down for virtually everybody with increasing age as a result of slower metabolism. As such, probiotics could be harmful for the majority of people over 35 or anybody else suffering from low metabolism.
The good news is that, just as Peat has been suggesting, a course of antibiotics quickly relieved the symptoms of those people with SIBO and overproducing D-lactate.

Brain fogginess, gas and bloating: a link between SIBO, probiotics and metabolic acidosis
Probiotics shouldn't be treated as a food supplement, according to a new study
Probiotic use is a link between brain fogginess, severe bloating

"...Probiotic use can result in a significant accumulation of bacteria in the small intestine that can result in disorienting brain fogginess as well as rapid, significant belly bloating, investigators report. In a published study of 38 patients, the 30 who reported problems like confusion and difficulty concentrating, in addition to their gas and bloating, were all taking probiotics, some several varieties. When investigators looked further, they found large colonies of bacteria breeding in the patients’ small intestines, and high levels of D-lactic acid being produced by the bacteria lactobacillus’ fermentation of sugars in their food, says Dr. Satish S.C. Rao, director of neurogastroenterology/motility and the Digestive Health Clinical Research Center at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University. D-lactic acid is known to be temporarily toxic to brain cells, interfering with cognition, thinking and sense of time. They found some patients had two to three times the normal amount of D-lactic acid in their blood. Some said their brain fogginess – which lasted from a half hour to many hours after eating – was so severe that they had to quit their jobs."

"...“What we now know is that probiotic bacteria have the unique capacity to break down sugar and produce D-lactic acid. So if you inadvertently colonize your small bowel with probiotic bacteria, then you have set the stage for potentially developing lactic acidosis and brain fogginess,” Rao says. While probiotics can be beneficial in some scenarios, like helping a patient restore his gut bacteria after taking antibiotics, the investigators advised caution against its excessive and indiscriminate use. “Probiotics should be treated as a drug, not as a food supplement,” Rao says, noting that many individuals self-prescribe the live bacteria, which are considered good for digestion and overall health."

"...When brain-foggy patients stopped taking probiotics and took a course of antibiotics, their brain fogginess resolved. Movement of food through the gastrointestinal tract was slow in one third of the brain foggy patients and one fourth of the other group. Slower passage, as well as things like obesity surgery, can increase the chance of bacterial buildup, or SIBO."

"...Probiotic use may be particularly problematic for patients who have known problems with motility, as well as those taking opioids and proton pump inhibitors, which reduce stomach acid secretion and so the natural destruction of excessive bacteria."

"...Probiotics are supposed to work in the colon and not the small intestines or stomach, Rao says, so motility issues can result in problems with probiotic bacteria reaching the proper place. A wide variety of problems, from conditions like diabetes to drugs like antidepressants and minerals like iron, can slow movement and increase the possibility that probiotics will remain too long in the upper gut where they can cause harm, he says."
What do you think about cocoa, as it increases the amount of lactic acid producing bacteria in the gut?
 

haidut

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Does this apply to kimchi and its derivative products? I've had the runs a couple times after eating kimchi and kimchi sauce. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad sign...

Yes, it does. Any fermented food that would stay in the small intestine for too long would be a problem according to the study.
 

haidut

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What do you think about cocoa, as it increases the amount of lactic acid producing bacteria in the gut?

If it increases those counts in the gut, as opposed to the small intestine, then it is OK. The problem starts when this type of bacteria colonizes the small intestine resulting in the condition SIBO. The small intestine should be clear of bacteria, and less bacteria in the colon is also good but hard to achieve.
 

Regina

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If it increases those counts in the gut, as opposed to the small intestine, then it is OK. The problem starts when this type of bacteria colonizes the small intestine resulting in the condition SIBO. The small intestine should be clear of bacteria, and less bacteria in the colon is also good but hard to achieve.
Kombucha? (All my yoga girlfriends make kombucha for each other).
 

Peatful

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@haidut
Does this change your stance on phages?
Thank you.
 

haidut

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Kombucha? (All my yoga girlfriends make kombucha for each other).

Any fermented food would have the potential to cause brain fog, if it stays in the upper intestine for too long. Whether it can cause problems long term depends on of there is any bacteria left in the food. If there is then it can cause SIBO, as per the study. It if there is not, then the brain fog would be temporary but I would still be wary of consuming too much D-lactic acid given its toxicity.
 

haidut

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@haidut
Does this change your stance on phages?
Thank you.

Not at the moment, unless new evidence appears. The phages are viruses that destroy the bacteria. The LEF product would be better if it was just phage therapy without the additional lactobacilli it provides but it probably still had benefit in cases where the gut or small intestine are colonized by more pathogenic bacteria like Clostridium or Mycobacterium.
 

Dobbler

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Im glad this is Peats and your stance on this matter. Probiotic business is probably the biggest one right now from health category and it feels like scam anyway. But i have to admit, it's so well pushed that i often get that feeling that i should be taking them. Its like this big propaganda machine in full force. Now i understand why people from religion have hard time letting go of previously pushed agendas. It's not the same ofc, but principle is the same.

Also the fact that there are thousands of products with different strenghts and bacterial cultures. How the hell you know what strenght and bacterias your suppose to take or what they even do inside of you? It's like shooting at dark.

Also a bit offtopic for @haidut . I've been eating my last meal really late, like at midnight or 1 am. I've been doing this for months now. My mood and energy have declined. Could this be due the fact that the food is fermenting in my gut and not moving at night? I have that problem during the day too but i assume doing it right before bed could amplify that?
 

jandrade1997

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Nov 7, 2013
Messages
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Peat does talk about the beneficial anti-inflammatory effects of lactobaccilus, separate from its lactic acid production. However, lactic acidosis isn’t a problem of lactobacillus presence, but rather an imbalanced ratio of lactobacillus to lactate-utilizing bacteria like anaerostripes, which convert lactic acid into the useful butyrate.
 

Fractality

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If I recall correctly, @Travis has made a case that the bacteria in kimchi opposes candida. I think using foods like kimchi is preferable to supplements.
 

Travis

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If I recall correctly, @Travis has made a case that the bacteria in kimchi opposes candida. I think using foods like kimchi is preferable to supplements.

Yes, but I think Acetobacter does it better: This genus produces acetic acid, is nonimmunogenic towards macrophages, and has an alcohol dehydrogenase isoform. Actinomycetes has yeast-destroying chitinase, has been detected in goats, and GABA-producing Lactobacilli is often found in their cheese. I think it would be good to consider all strains on a case-for-case basis, and wouldn't trust any one supplement manufacturer to necessarily know which are best. Certain manufacturers may take the more common strains found in healthier people as 'the beneficial,' yet even what's common may still be pathological: Common American enteral bacteria could represent a departure from the ideal due to the unnaturalness of the Standard American Diet (SAD—quite!). Could any one probiotic pill be most suitable for everybody? or should the bacterial profile be specifically individualized towards each person's diet? Certain species of bacteria can more efficiently deal with certain foods than others, and the spectrum of foods consumed around the globe varies widely. A cooked food with added oil may lead to a more hypoxic food matrix, relative to its native state, thus potentially favoring anaerobes over aerobic bacteria. It seems reasonable that a particular strain may improve assimilation in one person while causing a relative malabsorption in another.
 

Dhair

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Actinomycetes has yeast-destroying chitinase, has been detected in goats, and GABA-producing Lactobacilli is often found in their cheese.
Any significant amounts of this in their milk?
 

postman

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It is complete idiocy to want the FDA to regulate any food or supplement like a drug
 

Travis

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Any significant amounts of this in their milk?

I did see an article stating—in the title—that this genus has been found in dairy products, yet due to the intentional Lactobacilli inoculation of cheese I'd think that it usually becomes outcompeted. The Anaerostripes mentioned above seems interesting, and certainly does sound like it'd pair well with Lactobacilli. I would imagine that most people consume more Lactobacilli than pretty much anything on account of ubiquitous presence on vegetables, and in cheese.
 

danielbb

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One of Ray's youtube videos he mentioned that Greek Yogurt should be safe due to the extra straining process which removes most of the lactic acid.
 

Elephanto

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One of Ray's youtube videos he mentioned that Greek Yogurt should be safe due to the extra straining process which removes most of the lactic acid.
It still contains the bacteria strains that produce lactic acid in the gut and small intestine.
 

sugarbabe

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Yeah yogurt cultures typically are histamine producing.
 

haidut

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Im glad this is Peats and your stance on this matter. Probiotic business is probably the biggest one right now from health category and it feels like scam anyway. But i have to admit, it's so well pushed that i often get that feeling that i should be taking them. Its like this big propaganda machine in full force. Now i understand why people from religion have hard time letting go of previously pushed agendas. It's not the same ofc, but principle is the same.

Also the fact that there are thousands of products with different strenghts and bacterial cultures. How the hell you know what strenght and bacterias your suppose to take or what they even do inside of you? It's like shooting at dark.

Also a bit offtopic for @haidut . I've been eating my last meal really late, like at midnight or 1 am. I've been doing this for months now. My mood and energy have declined. Could this be due the fact that the food is fermenting in my gut and not moving at night? I have that problem during the day too but i assume doing it right before bed could amplify that?

If the last meal contains things hard to digest then it could cause digestive issues. I personally eat a carb-heavy meal toward the end of the day and more protein-heavy meals for breakfast and lunch and so far have not been having issues.
 
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