haidut

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In one of his articles, Ray briefly mentioned the possible role of lactobacillus strains in the pathology of Lupus.
Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency. Carrageenan
"...The variations in the post-influenza syndromes are very likely influenced by the nature of the bacteria or foods which are present, chronically or at the time of an uncompensated stress or inflammatory disease. K.M. Stevens has argued that while rheumatic fever and glomerulonephritis are caused by the antigens of streptococci, systemic lupus erythematosis (SLE) is probably caused by the antigens of gram-positive lactobacilli found in the normal flora. Migraine, SLE, chronic fatigue syndrome, thyroid problems, and some kinds of porphyria seem to be more common in women of re-productive age, and are often exacerbated by premenstrual hormone changes. According to Stevens, "SLE is almost entirely a disease of women of child-bearing age. One possibility for this selection could be that women during this period harbour a peculiar flora. This is indeed the case; large numbers of gram-positive lactobacilli are present in the vagina only during the thirty-odd years when regular menstrual activity is present." In 1974, I noticed that I consistently got a migraine headache after drinking a lactobacillus milk product, and stopped using (and recommending) yogurt and other lactobacillus foods, though I suspected it was the lactic acid which caused the immediate symptoms. Lactic acid is a metabolic burden, especially when combined with an estrogen excess, but Stevens' main point, about the significance of our immunological response to systemic bacterial antigens, deserves more attention.

I discussed this topic on one of the first podcasts with Danny and subsequently got a lot of hate mail from various proponents of fermented food, probiotic supplementation, and yogurt enemas. I tried to explain that the lactobacillus can certainly have benefits but mostly in cases where it can reduce the overpopulation with a more harmful bacteria like C. Difficile or streptococci. However, the hate mail continues (sporadically) to this day despite the fact that colon bacterial translocation into various organs has been shown to play a role in a host of other conditions including cancer.
Probiotics Are Dangerous, Should Be Regulated As Drugs
Gut Bacteria May Cause ALL Autoimmune Conditions; Antibiotics Can Cure
Gut Bacteria Overgrowth, Regardless Of Type, Causes Obesity
Pancreatic Cancer Driven By Bacteria/endotoxin; Antibiotics Can Prevent/treat
Probiotics Powerfully Suppress The Immune System

Well, the study below finally provides direct evidence that Lupus can be triggered by a bacterial strain commonly found in many probiotic products - Lactobacillus reuteri.
Lactobacillus reuteri - Wikipedia

In light of the continuously accumulating evidence that bacterial overgrowth in colon has a role in virtually all chronic diseases, I would be very wary of exogenous supplementation unless there is proven colonization with a much more dangerous pathogen.

https://www.cell.com/cell-host-micr...7.383612938.1545923258-233655730.1545923257#
https://www.genengnews.com/news/microbiome-changes-through-diet-may-help-ease-lupus-symptoms/

"...“We dissected, molecularly, how diets can work on the gut microbiome,” said senior author Martin Kriegel, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor adjunct in the department of immunobiology, Yale University School of Medicine. “We identified a pathway that is driving autoimmune disease and mitigated by the diet.” The paper, A Diet-Sensitive Commensal Lactobacillus Strain Mediates TLR7-Dependent Systemic Autoimmunity was published recently in Cell Host & Microbe. The team first identified the bacterium, Lactobacillus reuteri, in the gut of the mice that triggered an immune response leading to the disease. Specifically, in the Toll-like receptor 7 (TLR7)-dependent mouse models of lupus, L. reuteri stimulated immune cells known as dendritic cells, as well as immune system pathways that exacerbated disease development."
 

JessFields

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Interesting. I have suspicions that supplementing L reuteri may have triggered histamine intolerance in me
 

Blue Jefe

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@haidut Thanks for bringing this to my attention. L Reuteri activates IDO1 and therefore may help metabolize tryptophan. It’s unpublished research as of now but there is some preliminary evidence of IDO1/2 suppression in ME/CFS. I’ll be sure to tread carefully and report back.
 

tankasnowgod

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Very interesting. I remember you stating this in a related thread-
It could be an issue with taking for too short a period or not addressing the lymphatic bacteria. The study did say that to "cure" Lupus they had to give ampicillin or the other antibiotics for 20+ weeks. The shorter courses probably kill the bacteria in the liver and somewhat in the colon, which provides temporary relief. But without addressing the lymphatic bugs, the recolonization happens as soon as the antibiotics are stopped. So, aside form taking antibiotics for half a year I guess taking a highly lipophillic one orally dissolved in fat, or any of them topically (which should address the lymphatic issue) would be the way to go.

And this-
There is a current push (officially) in the US to lump Lupus, RA, Sjongren, psoriasis and possibly UC into a single disease category so that all drugs approved for one can be used for the rest of the conditions. A famous rheumatologist working in the DC that I spoke to this past summer said that they are really all one disease and the only reason this "unification" has not happened earlier was infighting between pharma companies to keep revenue going as long as possible from the various disease-specific drugs.

I'm reading one of Linus Pauling's books, and he mentions that he wasn't aware of any evidence of Vitamin C doing much for Lupus, but he also lists Dr. Carthcart's findings that bowel tolerance for Oral C in those with Rheumatoid Arthritis is anywhere from 35-200 grams a day.

I'm also interested in Dr. Coimbra's work using higher doses of Vitamin D (anywhere from 10,000iu to 200,000iu a day) in treating Auto Immune conditions.

And also, recently watched this talk by David McCarthy, where he talks about vitamin D sparing vitamin C (linked at relevant part at 17:00)


So, putting all these ideas together..... instead of a 20+ week course of Antibiotics, which could wreak havoc on the gut, how about maybe shorter term doses of 1-2 weeks at a time (3-6 times over a 6 month period), combined with higher dose Vitamin C (oral to bowel tolerance and IV), plus higher dose Vitamin D supplementation, in the range of 10,000-50,000iu a day. Think that would be a better way to get at that lymph bacteria?
 

haidut

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Very interesting. I remember you stating this in a related thread-


And this-


I'm reading one of Linus Pauling's books, and he mentions that he wasn't aware of any evidence of Vitamin C doing much for Lupus, but he also lists Dr. Carthcart's findings that bowel tolerance for Oral C in those with Rheumatoid Arthritis is anywhere from 35-200 grams a day.

I'm also interested in Dr. Coimbra's work using higher doses of Vitamin D (anywhere from 10,000iu to 200,000iu a day) in treating Auto Immune conditions.

And also, recently watched this talk by David McCarthy, where he talks about vitamin D sparing vitamin C (linked at relevant part at 17:00)


So, putting all these ideas together..... instead of a 20+ week course of Antibiotics, which could wreak havoc on the gut, how about maybe shorter term doses of 1-2 weeks at a time (3-6 times over a 6 month period), combined with higher dose Vitamin C (oral to bowel tolerance and IV), plus higher dose Vitamin D supplementation, in the range of 10,000-50,000iu a day. Think that would be a better way to get at that lymph bacteria?

I think it may work but I'd prefer getting a highly lipophillic antibiotic like minocycline, which seems to preferentially get into the lymphatic system. Don't see a reason why both can't be tried together.
 

Hans

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I think it may work but I'd prefer getting a highly lipophillic antibiotic like minocycline, which seems to preferentially get into the lymphatic system. Don't see a reason why both can't be tried together.
Any other substances that can be used to kill bugs in the lymphic system? For instance, would methylene blue and/or monolaurin also work?
 

Makrosky

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Any other substances that can be used to kill bugs in the lymphic system? For instance, would methylene blue and/or monolaurin also work?
I would be more interested in knowing if one certainly HAS bugs in the lymphatic system. Any ideas?
 

Hans

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I would be more interested in knowing if one certainly HAS bugs in the lymphatic system. Any ideas?
Being hypothyroid, being too acidic, having gut and liver issues, eating gut-irritating foods, PUFAs, etc., will almost certainly cause an increase in lymphatic bacteria. If the lymph nodes are swollen or hurting or you have recurring infections, you can suspect bacteria.
I'm thinking sublingual natural anti-biotics, such as cinnamon-, ginger-, oregano-, thyme oil, etc., should be effective against lymphatic bacteria. A study I recently read showed that sublingual anti-biotics were effective in treating recurring bladder infection and reducing lymph node swelling.
 

charlie

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Being hypothyroid, being too acidic, having gut and liver issues, eating gut-irritating foods, PUFAs, etc., will almost certainly cause an increase in lymphatic bacteria.
Correct, because the bacteria are trying to save your life and deal with the acidosis. The bacteria are not the problem, they are the helpers. Knock down the bacteria in your lymphatic system with antibiotics and prepare for the blow back.
 

Makrosky

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Correct, because the bacteria are trying to save your life and deal with the acidosis. The bacteria are not the problem, they are the helpers. Knock down the bacteria in your lymphatic system with antibiotics and prepare for the blow back.
What do you exactly mean with acidosis charlie? Because of eating acidic foods? Sugar, dairy, coffee, meat, etc...?
 

charlie

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What do you exactly mean with acidosis charlie?
Acidosis is when the Great Lymphatic System gets backed up due to the kidneys not filtering correctly. So these acids start to accumulate in the body and wreck havoc. The body puts on water trying to buffer this acidity. Same thing goes for cholesterol, cholesterol rises trying to buffer the acidity. Vitamin D does the same, buffers acidity.

It all comes down to the Great Lymphatic System. And it is all so simple. You are either on the acid side of chemistry, or you are not. If you are on the acid side you will get degeneration, on the base side, regeneration.

Because of eating acidic foods? Sugar, dairy, meat, etc...?
Correct, dairy being the worst. Not only does it leave an acid ash, it also causes a ton of mucus which plugs up the lymphatic system. Double whammy.

Sugar from fruits are the best, hands down.
 
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haidut

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Any other substances that can be used to kill bugs in the lymphic system? For instance, would methylene blue and/or monolaurin also work?

Yes, both may work and I think the combination of MB and red light (photodynamic therapy) is already studied for Lyme disease (which also hides in lymphatic and nervous system) as well as lymphatic cancers.
 

Waremu

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Acidosis is when the Great Lymphatic System gets backed up due to the kidneys not filtering correctly. So these acids start to accumulate in the body and wreck havoc. The body puts on water trying to buffer this acidity. Same thing goes for cholesterol, cholesterol rises trying to buffer the acidity. Vitamin D does the same, buffers acidity.

It all comes down to the Great Lymphatic System. And it is all so simple. You are either on the acid side of chemistry, or you are not. If you are on the acid side you will get degeneration, on the base side, regeneration.


Correct, dairy being the worst. Not only does it leave an acid ash, it also causes a ton of mucus which plugs up the lymphatic system. Double whammy.

Sugar from fruits are the best, hands down.


If milk and animal proteins are to be avoided, then how would the body get the amount of protein it needs to detoxify estrogen via the liver? Studies Ray Peat has showed show that the body needs somewhere around 80 grams of protein to do so. Thats not really possible to get with fruits alone.
 
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charlie

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If milk and animal proteins are to be avoided, then how would the body get the amount of protein it needs to detoxify estrogen via the liver?
Please show me where the body uses protein. It cannot use protein. It has to break it down into amino acids and this process leaves an acid ash which wrecks havoc on the body when not removed. Why not get the amino acids from fruit and veggies? :ss2

My estrogen is the lowest it ever has been and regeneration has skyrocketed. I do not need a study to show me that. :hattip

edit: If any animal protein is needed I do not think it is the high amounts being suggested, if at all. I can only report what I am finding, and what I am finding is pretty incredible. There are others in the background thriving off fruit now. Some has chosen to keep some protein, others not. What I am seeing, is the more fruit added to the diet, the better off.
 
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Waremu

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Please show me where the body uses protein. It cannot use protein. It has to break it down into amino acids and this process leaves an acid ash which wrecks havoc on the body when not removed. Why not get the amino acids from fruit and veggies?

My estrogen is the lowest it ever has been and regeneration has skyrocketed. I do not need a study to show me that. :hattip

edit: If any animal protein is needed I do not think it is the high amounts being suggested, if at all. I can only report what I am finding, and what I am finding is pretty incredible. There are others in the background thriving off fruit now. Some has chosen to keep some protein, others not. What I am seeing, is the more fruit added to the diet, the better off.

Of course the body breaks down protein into amino acids. I never said the body uses the raw protein. My point is, the body uses the protein, from start to finish. When you eat animal protein, it doesn't come in free amino acids, does it? No. The body has to break protein down into amino acids to use them. Are you saying the body does not use these amino acids?

Ray Peat has agreed that a 'protein deficiency lowers liver detoxification due to increased muscle breakdown which inhibits thyroid via amino acids which lowers metabolic efficiency of liver', in email exchanges posted to this forum.

This makes sense. If the body is breaking down muscle tissue then it will likely have a negative impact on the thyroid, which would then impact the liver due to the conversion problem caused by the break down of the more inflammatory proteins. I will have to search for the one I remember him referring to. But from that vantage point alone, enough protein would be needed to prevent this, otherwise thyroid and liver slows, which means it cannot detoxify estrogen. But I don't think that's the only other reason for how it is done that he mentioned.

In the meantime, two interesting studies that have been posted here before, by @Amazoniac, which seems to favor that argument. He mentioned that, when you add 1/3 - 1/2 of collagen to that requirement, you get those 90 g or so, which would seem to back up that idea of Peat's. But maybe he can chime in if he is aware of any studies that mention this, if he has any other studies on the subject. The two studies he posted on the forum elsewhere:

Dies wurde von Kartoffel gefunden und woanders geteilt:
- Evidence that protein requirements have been significantly underestimated

And this was posted on another thread:
- Dietary protein intake and human health

Also, the body seems to need a good amount of zinc, which is very hard if not impossible to get on a 100% fruit diet without eating seeds (and even then, zinc from seeds do not appear to be as well absorbed as zinc from animal protein sources). Maybe there is some exotic fruit out there high in zinc, but I am not aware of any common fruits that can provide enough zinc.

If it were possible to eat only fruits, I actually would probably love it. But Zinc and protein needs are two of the biggest factors that hold me back from saying a fruit based diet is ideal or healthy in the long term. (Fruits do make up a very large part of my diet, however, since they are my only carb source, as I don't eat starches). The acid ash point you bring up is something to consider as well, but if the trade off is sluggish liver and thyroid due to low protein intake, I don't see how it is good either.
 
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Acidosis is when the Great Lymphatic System gets backed up due to the kidneys not filtering correctly. So these acids start to accumulate in the body and wreck havoc. The body puts on water trying to buffer this acidity. Same thing goes for cholesterol, cholesterol rises trying to buffer the acidity. Vitamin D does the same, buffers acidity.

It all comes down to the Great Lymphatic System. And it is all so simple. You are either on the acid side of chemistry, or you are not. If you are on the acid side you will get degeneration, on the base side, regeneration.


Correct, dairy being the worst. Not only does it leave an acid ash, it also causes a ton of mucus which plugs up the lymphatic system. Double whammy.

Sugar from fruits are the best, hands down.

Charlie is this from the work of Randy morse?
 

RisingSun

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Please show me where the body uses protein. It cannot use protein. It has to break it down into amino acids and this process leaves an acid ash which wrecks havoc on the body when not removed. Why not get the amino acids from fruit and veggies? :ss2

My estrogen is the lowest it ever has been and regeneration has skyrocketed. I do not need a study to show me that. :hattip

edit: If any animal protein is needed I do not think it is the high amounts being suggested, if at all. I can only report what I am finding, and what I am finding is pretty incredible. There are others in the background thriving off fruit now. Some has chosen to keep some protein, others not. What I am seeing, is the more fruit added to the diet, the better off.


So Charlie have you become a fruitarian and recommend against dairy?
 

miki14

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It would be great to have reuterin as a pure substance without the lactobazillus crap! Who is up to the task to make this a product?
 
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