All Gut Bacteria Dangerous, Its Endotoxin Drives Liver Cancer; Antibiotics Cure

[Kvothe]

So Peat and Georgi are wrong: gut bacteria are essential.

Where do you read that in this text?

 

[Bart1]

Just a stool transfer, which is helping some people (temporarily) get rid of almost all their symptoms, tells me it's too simplistic to just state "all gut bacteria are dangerous".

There are studies where people that have never been in contact with the western world (amazon tribes) harbour the most diverse microbiome ever seen.

The microbiome of uncontacted Amerindians

These people don't have autoimmune diseases, liver cancer etc. There's just more to the story.

Just like the Peat community says sugar does not cause diabetes.....Starch does not create autoimmunity/disease.

The gut microbiome probably needs to be balanced.

 

[TheBeard]

Just a stool transfer, which is helping some people (temporarily) get rid of almost all their symptoms, tells me it's too simplistic to just state "all gut bacteria are dangerous".

There are studies where people that have never been in contact with the western world (amazon tribes) harbour the most diverse microbiome ever seen.

The microbiome of uncontacted Amerindians

These people don't have autoimmune diseases, liver cancer etc. There's just more to the story.

Just like the Peat community says sugar does not cause diabetes.....Starch does not create autoimmunity/disease.

The gut microbiome probably needs to be balanced.

Balance? Boring...balance is the easy way out for the lazy mind that is not after a definite answer.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Beyond the grave – understanding human decomposition (has haunting material)

"Workmen clearing limbs from a roadside guardrail (in the summer) discovered a fully clothed woman dead for an undetermined time. No indication of decomposition and no insect activity led investigators to initially believe this was a very recent homicide. In actuality the woman had been dead for nearly 4 months. She had been sprayed with insecticide (and other chemicals) by the perpetrator to mask the odour of decomposition so she wouldn’t be found. Unwittingly, the murderer had essentially sterilized the body and prevented flies from laying eggs. Autopsy showed some internal decomposition, but it was significantly reduced. Apparently, the chemicals seeped into her lungs and then spread throughout her body."​

​

"Several years ago, grave robbers, searching for artefacts, unearthed the coffin of an American Civil War Colonel (Col. Shy). The caretaker of the cemetery called in the police who found a fresh corpse in the grave. After significant investigation, it was ascertained that the fresh corpse was indeed Col. Shy, who ‘still had red meat on his bones’. At that time prominent solders were buried in solid lead coffins – the lead had ‘sterilized’ the body by poisoning the microflora and decomposition had not progressed past initial autolysis."​

The profile changes if you distract:
- thanatomicrobiome | Google Scholar

 

[Kvothe]

Just a stool transfer, which is helping some people (temporarily) get rid of almost all their symptoms, tells me it's too simplistic to just state "all gut bacteria are dangerous".

The gut microbiome probably needs to be balanced.

These two statements are not mutually exclusive, if you put both into the right context. I think what Ray and Georgi mean is that any bacteria are potentially dangerous in a certain context. The best way to reconcile both statements might be to say that some bacteria are potentially less problematic than others. "Good" bacteria like lactobacilli have certain inflammatory actions, b.subtilis produces substances that kill of very harmful bacteria - nevertheless, both of them become can dangerous when they overgrow, or overpopulate the small intestine. For instance, this (1) study found a much higher concentration of lactobacilli in an autistic adult compared to his healthy relatives.
Showing that establishing a new bacterial mix can be beneficial to a certain person isn't proof that there are good and bad bacteria. Every bacterial strain comes with a variety of different properties, and their goodness depends on the whole context. Some of them seem to be preferntial for good health, but that doesn't make them intrinsically good regardless of the context.

1) Gut Microbiota Profile Autism Spectrum Disorder Relationship: Diversity and Imbalance in Probiotics

 

[Perry Staltic]

Just a stool transfer, which is helping some people (temporarily) get rid of almost all their symptoms, tells me it's too simplistic to just state "all gut bacteria are dangerous".

There are studies where people that have never been in contact with the western world (amazon tribes) harbour the most diverse microbiome ever seen.

The microbiome of uncontacted Amerindians

These people don't have autoimmune diseases, liver cancer etc. There's just more to the story.

Just like the Peat community says sugar does not cause diabetes.....Starch does not create autoimmunity/disease.

The gut microbiome probably needs to be balanced.

Those people certainly get a lot more dirt in their mouths, and consequently more soil microbiota.

 

[Kvothe]

Those people certainly get a lot more dirt in their mouths, and consequently more soil microbiota.

Eating a little bit of dirt everyday is probably a very good way to establish b.subtilis in your gut. That's why I never wash my carrots too carefully after pulling them out of the ground.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Eating a little bit of dirt everyday is probably a very good way to establish b.subtilis in your gut. That's why I never wash my carrots too carefully after pulling them out of the ground.

I probably get inoculated with dirt because I'm not fastidious about washing my hands after working outside (unless I've handled the chickens), but I just bought some subtilis. I like coagulens and wanted to try another spore-forming probiotic.

 

[Vinny]

Eating a little bit of dirt everyday is probably a very good way to establish b.subtilis in your gut. That's why I never wash my carrots too carefully after pulling them out of the ground.

How do you know there is b.subtilis in the dirt where your carrots grow, and actually, how do you know what else you take with it?
Thanks

 

[Braveheart]

Those people certainly get a lot more dirt in their mouths, and consequently more soil microbiota.

Fascinating...

 

[Braveheart]

Just a stool transfer, which is helping some people (temporarily) get rid of almost all their symptoms, tells me it's too simplistic to just state "all gut bacteria are dangerous".

There are studies where people that have never been in contact with the western world (amazon tribes) harbour the most diverse microbiome ever seen.

The microbiome of uncontacted Amerindians

These people don't have autoimmune diseases, liver cancer etc. There's just more to the story.

Just like the Peat community says sugar does not cause diabetes.....Starch does not create autoimmunity/disease.

The gut microbiome probably needs to be balanced.

Fascinating.....

 

[Bart1]

These two statements are not mutually exclusive, if you put both into the right context. I think what Ray and Georgi mean is that any bacteria are potentially dangerous in a certain context. The best way to reconcile both statements might be to say that some bacteria are potentially less problematic than others. "Good" bacteria like lactobacilli have certain inflammatory actions, b.subtilis produces substances that kill of very harmful bacteria - nevertheless, both of them become can dangerous when they overgrow, or overpopulate the small intestine. For instance, this (1) study found a much higher concentration of lactobacilli in an autistic adult compared to his healthy relatives.
Showing that establishing a new bacterial mix can be beneficial to a certain person isn't proof that there are good and bad bacteria. Every bacterial strain comes with a variety of different properties, and their goodness depends on the whole context. Some of them seem to be preferntial for good health, but that doesn't make them intrinsically good regardless of the context.

1) Gut Microbiota Profile Autism Spectrum Disorder Relationship: Diversity and Imbalance in Probiotics

Well just killing off bacteria because they are "bad" and can produce endotoxin might be a very bad thing as well, because you will weaken your defense against pathogens, disrupt the balance just like you talk about.


It's just not as simple as "al gut bacteria" are dangerous. Maybe, like Peat says, we can conclude that everything is potentially dangerous when being hypothyroid.

 

[Bart1]

Balance? Boring...balance is the easy way out for the lazy mind that is not after a definite answer.

taking TRT is ?

 

[TheBeard]

taking TRT is ?

If you ever make complete and structurally correct sentences I might have a chance of understanding what you are trying to formulate and potentially answer.

 

[SamYo123]

As Peat has written many times, there is truly no such thing as “beneficial” gut bacteria as long as they are capable of producing endotoxin (LPS). And since most bacterial species known to colonize the gut can produce LPS when exposed to undigested food or mechanical stimulation (stretching or even bouncing the intestine through say running), the conclusion that one could make is that all gut bacteria can be pathogenic. I already posted a study showing that probiotics are dangerous and some doctors call for them to be regulated like drugs.

The study below corroborates once again that gut bacteria is pathogenic, at least as far as liver cancer is concerned, and shows that administration of antibiotics (tetracyclines anyone?) is curative in the majority of the cases. Since vitamin K2 (MK-4) is expected to be approved soon for treating liver cancer (HCC) it suggests that it may have some antibiotic effects of its own. In addition, it also suggests that quinones like emodin with known anti-endotoxin effects could also be a viable treatment/preventive method for that cancer.

NLRP12 suppresses hepatocellular carcinoma via downregulation of cJun N-terminal kinase activation in the hepatocyte | eLife

https://www.mdlinx.com/allergy-immunology/top-medical-news/article/2019/04/16/7564232

“…To understand why this occurred, the researchers looked at the signals sent by tumor cells in mice with and without the Nlrp12 gene. They found that the JNK (c-Jun N-terminal kinase) pathway—previously shown to be associated with liver cancer—is highly active in liver tumors that lack Nlrp12, Dr. Zaki said. The JNK pathway can be activated by a component of bacterial cell walls called lipopolysaccharide (LPS), he said. Both “good” bacteria—which line the gut and aid in digestion—and “bad” pathogenic bacteria—such as Salmonella or Escherichia coli—can release LPS, Dr. Zaki explained.”

“…The LPS can move from the gut to the liver via the bloodstream and contribute to inflammation by setting off the JNK and other signaling pathways. Such transport is much more common in chronically inflamed livers such as those of people suffering from hepatitis or fatty liver disease, he said. The study data suggest that NLRP12 suppresses inflammation caused by gut microbiota and cancer-promoting signals, added Dr. Zaki, a member of the Harold C. Simmons Comprehensive Cancer Center.”

“…To confirm the gut-liver inflammation-cancer hypothesis, the researchers treated mice with antibiotics to reduce levels of gut bacteria. “Depletion of gut microbiota with antibiotics dramatically reduced tumor growth in mice without Nlrp12,” Dr Zaki said. “This study suggests that NLRP12 could be a potential therapeutic target. It also indicates that finding a way to increase NLRP12 in the liver in combination with current immune checkpoint blockade therapies may improve liver cancer treatment.”

"…The LPS can move from the gut to the liver via the bloodstream and contribute to inflammation"

Ok, so on a peat diet, what do you do if sucrose in all forms feeds endotoxin, contributing to inflammation on the skin?

Thats, that sucrose allows the bacteria to grow...

How are you going to get carbs without feeding endotoxin?

 

[SamYo123]

A couple, all antibiotics including penicillin and tetracycline are linked to the development of gut diseases.

Rosacea, Use of Tetracycline, and Risk of Incident Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Women
Potential association between the oral tetracycline class of antimicrobials used to treat acne and inflammatory bowel disease. - PubMed - NCBI
Antibiotic use and inflammatory bowel diseases in childhood

Antibiotics are an inferior way to manage your intestinal flora since they kill indiscriminately and are likely to cause dysbiosis. In contrast if you harness your endogenous anti-bacteria defences such as ensuring proper bile flow, having fasting/feeding cycles, eating natural fiber-containing foods, keeping your circadian rhythms, etc, you will have a healthier flora since for instance bile preferentially kills the more harmful bacteria and spares the beneficial ones.

In contrast if you harness your endogenous anti-bacteria defences such as ensuring proper bile flow, having fasting/feeding cycles, eating natural fiber-containing foods, keeping your circadian rhythms, etc, you will have a healthier flora since for instance bile preferentially kills the more harmful bacteria and spares the beneficial ones.

So fiber, increases bile flow.

What else destroys bile flow?

 

[Matestube]

In contrast if you harness your endogenous anti-bacteria defences such as ensuring proper bile flow, having fasting/feeding cycles, eating natural fiber-containing foods, keeping your circadian rhythms, etc, you will have a healthier flora since for instance bile preferentially kills the more harmful bacteria and spares the beneficial ones.

So fiber, increases bile flow.

What else destroys bile flow?

You don't want any fiber, you don't want gut fermentation which feeds bacteria.
Any form of sugar, on its own, won't feed bacteria that much as long as there is not fiber.

 

[SamYo123]

You don't want any fiber, you don't want gut fermentation which feeds bacteria.
Any form of sugar, on its own, won't feed bacteria that much as long as there is not fiber.

If i followed this, the sugar, (sucrose) would cause me skin inflammation, and beardruff, that sugar must be fermenting something..

Now when i eat fiber (oat bran) that redness also decreases... and my bowl movements increase

So tell me whats happening?

High sucrose diet-induced dysbiosis of gut microbiota promotes fatty liver and hyperlipidemia in rats - PubMed

Excess sucrose intake has been found to be a major factor in the development of metabolic syndrome, especially in promoting nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. The excess fructose is believed to targets the liver to promote de novo lipogenesis, as described in major biochemistry textbooks. On the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Matestube]

So tell me whats happening?

I'm neither a doctor nor a scientist, and certainly not your doctor.
All I can convey are the results of anecdotal evidence pointing towards people suffering from SIBO faring better on a no-fiber diet.

 

[SamYo123]

I'm neither a doctor nor a scientist, and certainly not your doctor.
All I can convey are the results of anecdotal evidence pointing towards people suffering from SIBO faring better on a no-fiber diet.

What about ray recomendatations on carrot salad, mushrooms n bamboos?