Yogurt/Probiotics after a round of Antibiotics?

[Such_Saturation]

I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism.

Everything we think they know about the human body, including all Peat's work, is in the sense of reductionism . Does that mean it's not useful? No.. fortunately not.

Yes but it's not a complete knowledge. Eating well is not reductionistic and it is the road to complete knowledge.

 

[pboy]

yea good point, saturated fat when it combines with calcium or magnesium basically forms a small bar of soap in your intestine...antimicrobial and desticks unwanted anything...a real nice benefit

So, milk?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1377184

nice...I wonder is cows milk has the same quality...I know in india they are huge on milk and ghee for keeping intestines healthy...said to remove offending toxins. So probably so

 

[Lin]

I have been trying to follow this thread, and am now confused. I thought almost all the bacteria in yogurt and fermented food would killed by stomach acid. That's why the probiotic capsules are coated to not disolve until they get into the alkaline environment of the large intestine (supposedly).
If a person really has a problem with overgrowth of bad bacteria, the best treatment is a fecal transplant from a healthy donor.

 

[Mittir]

@narouz

I think one of the main piece is missing in your list. RP has mentioned about
pectin that if you have good bacteria composition then pectin is not
problematic. It is the bad bacteria composition that creates the need for
avoidance of pectin, use of raw carrot salad, bamboo shoots and in
certain cases small amount of antibiotics until symptoms are
decreasing. We do not know what he means by "symptoms".

I have noticed among healthy long lived people that they were not born and
raised in cities. They lived their early life in rural areas or were avid gardener.
My guess was that they had good foundation of health eating all the fresh foods
and gardeners usually grow some of their foods . Then i read an article showing type of gut bacteria in children in African village were way higher than children in city .
Dr Ayers also mentioned that eating unwashed fruits and vegetables and
spend time outdoor and handling muds increases the variety of gut bacteria.

RP had digestive issues since his birth and he thinks his mother's hypothyroidism
was the possible cause of his ill health. Hypothyroidism weakens digestion and
slows down peristalsis. Undigested and partially digested starch and soluble fiber
will feed mostly bad bacteria and that will result in high endotoxin. My understanding
is that hypothyroidism worsens the endotoxin condition even if someone had relatively
good gut bacteria composition. He also mentioned that so called "good bacteria"
also produces toxic waste.

 

[Suikerbuik]

I have been trying to follow this thread, and am now confused. I thought almost all the bacteria in yogurt and fermented food would killed by stomach acid.

Yeah, but maybe you'd be surprised if I say that part of the effects are also mediated by death bacteria. :O

 

[pboy]

@narouz

I think one of the main piece is missing in your list. RP has mentioned about
pectin that if you have good bacteria composition then pectin is not
problematic. It is the bad bacteria composition that creates the need for
avoidance of pectin, use of raw carrot salad, bamboo shoots and in
certain cases small amount of antibiotics until symptoms are
decreasing. We do not know what he means by "symptoms".

I have noticed among healthy long lived people that they were not born and
raised in cities. They lived their early life in rural areas or were avid gardener.
My guess was that they had good foundation of health eating all the fresh foods
and gardeners usually grow some of their foods . Then i read an article showing type of gut bacteria in children in African village were way higher than children in city .
Dr Ayers also mentioned that eating unwashed fruits and vegetables and
spend time outdoor and handling muds increases the variety of gut bacteria.

RP had digestive issues since his birth and he thinks his mother's hypothyroidism
was the possible cause of his ill health. Hypothyroidism weakens digestion and
slows down peristalsis. Undigested and partially digested starch and soluble fiber
will feed mostly bad bacteria and that will result in high endotoxin. My understanding
is that hypothyroidism worsens the endotoxin condition even if someone had relatively
good gut bacteria composition. He also mentioned that so called "good bacteria"
also produces toxic waste.

great info...so our best bet may be just to try to engage in more outdoor activity with feet/hands in healthy soil as a good idea to get beneficial as opposed to non beneficial...at least it would increase the variety. That's interesting what you said about pectin...because a while back when I first was a vegan (few years) I could eat fruit that was high in pectin...back then I didn't know much about food, id just like eat the whole thing anything, and surprisingly I didn't have gas or endotoxin problems...didn't even know what it was. I started drinking kombucha, eating raw 'living' vinegar, raw miso...sauerkraut, all commercial made, wine, ect...thinking the bacteria would be beneficial. After a while I couldnt digest anything without major discomfort...not even basic rice meals...they weren't as bad but id feel heavy immediately after. I was also on a low protein, calcium, iodine diet...so maybe what happened was body lost its ability to use immune factors to determine which bacteria to keep and expel, and I got overgrown with the commercial strains that were either too pure or just non ideal (no milk so there wasn't any of those to compete). This is part of the reason why I cant recommend probiotics, they seem to be an accident waiting to happen. It took a long time to recover also. Healthy thyroid/immune system, it seems, keeps anything in check...growth wise. Even now, I can eat some starch or pectin and it isn't ideal, still gas, but it doesn't down me or make me sour like it used to back then. Ive also always had digestive sensitivity since birth...parents always complained I was a picky eater, but it was probably a protective thing I was doing...that maybe they didn't have to deal with, considering the circumstances and timing of my birth...if parent hypothyroid translates to weaker gut in a child, then that's probably what happened to me...I was born less than a year after my older brother and mom had breast fed him...so I probably didn't have that much nourishment as I should have got

 

[Mittir]

great info...so our best bet may be just to try to engage in more outdoor activity with feet/hands in healthy soil as a good idea to get beneficial as opposed to non beneficial...at least it would increase the variety.

I have also read soil can contain serious pathogens. So i am not so sure about
Dr Ayers recommendation being safe. I was simply pointing out the difference in
gut bacteria diversity between rural and city population.

I believe most of us have been through those phases of kefir, mother of vinegar,
whole variety of probiotics etc. I think health food industry is the most
ill informed and dangerous of all. They just look for any excuse to sell products.
It always puzzles me how can people not know the complexity of human body
and their own limitation of knowledge. In my area of education, i know what i know
and what i do not know. I know that to understand certain papers i have to learn
10 different things. I used to think these are honest and simple people who sells
health product claiming all sorts of things. Now i think it got more to do with ego
and money that keeps them from not finding out real information.

 

[narouz]

I think one of the main piece is missing in your list. RP has mentioned about
pectin that if you have good bacteria composition then pectin is not
problematic. It is the bad bacteria composition that creates the need for
avoidance of pectin, use of raw carrot salad, bamboo shoots and in
certain cases small amount of antibiotics until symptoms are
decreasing.

I agree with the rest of your post Mittir.
And I agree with the above portion too.

The "gap" that I've tried to articulate
(not too effectively, I'm afraid )
is what happens after the part of your post I quoted here.

In the case one does take pharma antibiotics,
what would be the best Peatian approach in proceeding?
-just eat the usual Peatian stuff and hope favorable gut repopulation takes place?
-or actively try to encourage favorable repopulation with probiotics or kefir/yogurt?

 

[narouz]

I have been trying to follow this thread, and am now confused. I thought almost all the bacteria in yogurt and fermented food would killed by stomach acid. That's why the probiotic capsules are coated to not disolve until they get into the alkaline environment of the large intestine (supposedly).
If a person really has a problem with overgrowth of bad bacteria, the best treatment is a fecal transplant from a healthy donor.

You raise a good question, Lin.
Some probiotic companies do use something they call, I think,
an "enteric capsule" (or somesuch),
claiming that it is more effective
because it carries the probiotics deeper into the intestinal tract.

I'm afraid this still doesn't shed much light on
best Peatian strategies to help the gut toward health
in the event one takes a round of pharma antibiotics.

I guess we could hypothesize
that the stomach acid is their for a reason--
to kill bacteria.
Maybe it would be precisely backward to swallow enteric capsules
full of bacteria
with the intent of subverting the protective acids...?

 

[narouz]

I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism.

Everything we think they know about the human body, including all Peat's work, is in the sense of reductionism . Does that mean it's not useful? No.. fortunately not.

Yes but it's not a complete knowledge. Eating well is not reductionistic and it is the road to complete knowledge.

Could you guys please describe a bit
what you mean by "reductionism" in this context?

It's an intriguing line of thinking,
but I confess I'm mostly in the dark...

 

[Mittir]

@narouz

RP uses pharma antibiotics in small doses for a short period of time, not like
regular doctors prescription.It is probably weaker than 2-3 cloves of garlic
and all sorts of other natural antibiotics we get from foods. RP thinks
garlic is harsh on intestine and that is probably why he uses pharma product.
I also think he has seen studies that used those antibiotics that showed measurable
benefits. He mentioned how antibiotics helped women with fertility problems.
He also knows more about the biochemical properties of those antibiotics.
I wanted to ask him what he means by occasional dose. Is it 1 single dose daily
or several times a day, once every month or two? Here is a quote

Antibiotics

No, I just do it occasionally.

I usually break the tablets up, and use fourths or halves, at intervals according to need. It's important to get some vitamin K1 or K2 when you use an antibiotic (liver or kale, or supplements). Have you checked your thyroid? Low thyroid function is usually behind the dark circles.

For myself, I judge by symptoms; if I feel an effect from a first dose, I take a smaller dose, usually 100mg, the next time, and similar amounts as long as the symptom is decreasing, and when I don't notice any symptom, I take a few smaller doses.

Now the common sense part. One would keep doing whatever they want to do
regarding carrot salad, bamboo shoots, cascara, antibiotics etc until symptoms
disappears. If one does not have any major symptoms they are not going to get much
out of antibiotic use. I personally avoid antibiotics, my health issues started after a
month long antibiotic use for a minor skin issue. I plan to try small dose antibiotic
as an experiment after i can decypher what RP means by occasional use and symptoms.

 

[narouz]

Thanks, Mittir.
Yes, I read that email from Peat.
Seems like that email continued,
or perhaps there are additional emails (somewhere :? )
on the same subject
which flesh out his antibiotic use.

And from those and from the one you cite,
I got the idea that he wasn't averse to taking one of his preferred pharma antibiotics
over a few days.
Or, at least that he would sometimes say it was okay to do so--say that to others, that is.

Back long ago Charlie embarked on a daunting antibiotic (minocycline, I think) course.
Seems like he did it for about 10 days or something.
I suggested to him at the time more like what you note Peat said in the email--
just for a day or so.

Well...Charlie wasn't too thrilled with his results, as I recall (I could be wrong).
At the same time, I tried amoxicillin (dumb choice, but...I had it) for a day.
We both got what Charlie thought was Thrush.
I doubt it was.
But...coated white tongue.
Mine was very persistent.
Indeed, I think it lasted about a year.

I am meandering here...not strictly to my original question, but related.
Neither the long nor the short course had obviously wonderful effects
and perhaps some clearly negative ones.

I've just finished a four day tour with tetracycline, and will report!

@narouz

RP uses pharma antibiotics in small doses for a short period of time, not like
regular doctors prescription.It is probably weaker than 2-3 cloves of garlic
and all sorts of other natural antibiotics we get from foods. RP thinks
garlic is harsh on intestine and that is probably why he uses pharma product.
I also think he has seen studies that used those antibiotics that showed measurable
benefits. He mentioned how antibiotics helped women with fertility problems.
He also knows more about the biochemical properties of those antibiotics.
I wanted to ask him what he means by occasional dose. Is it 1 single dose daily
or several times a day, once every month or two? Here is a quote

Antibiotics

No, I just do it occasionally.

I usually break the tablets up, and use fourths or halves, at intervals according to need. It's important to get some vitamin K1 or K2 when you use an antibiotic (liver or kale, or supplements). Have you checked your thyroid? Low thyroid function is usually behind the dark circles.

For myself, I judge by symptoms; if I feel an effect from a first dose, I take a smaller dose, usually 100mg, the next time, and similar amounts as long as the symptom is decreasing, and when I don't notice any symptom, I take a few smaller doses.

Now the common sense part. One would keep doing whatever they want to do
regarding carrot salad, bamboo shoots, cascara, antibiotics etc until symptoms
disappears. If one does not have any major symptoms they are not going to get much
out of antibiotic use. I personally avoid antibiotics, my health issues started after a
month long antibiotic use for a minor skin issue. I plan to try small dose antibiotic
as an experiment after i can decypher what RP means by occasional use and symptoms.

 

[Mittir]

I tried amoxicillin (dumb choice, but...I had it) for a day

What was the strength of that antibiotic? He mentioned in peatarian
exchange 30-50 mg of tetracyline or penicillin.

 

[narouz]

The otherway to establish good gut flora is plain old dirt. Dr. Art Ayers at the Cooling Inflammation blog advocates barely rinsing off fresh picked vegetables, playing with a dirty dog and stuff like that for a natural approach to gut flora.

Thanks, LucyL-

I see where you're coming from, but...
I would be scared to go out in my backyard and snack on some dirt now. :)

My general outlook now, after just finishing 4 days of tetracycline,
is that my now sterile (?) bowels
may also, necessarily, be undefended bowels.
And to eat dirt and unwashed veggies...uh...just can't go there.

But I do take your drift.

(Maybe I should journey to 10,000 meters
and consume heavenly dirt from there...)

 

[narouz]

I tried amoxicillin (dumb choice, but...I had it) for a day

What was the strength of that antibiotic? He mentioned in peatarian
exchange 30-50 mg of tetracyline or penicillin.

With the amoxicillin, that was nearly 2 years ago or so I think,
and I believe I did it for a day, 3 times, at 500mg I think.

Now, I've just finished 4 days of tetracycline, 100mg, 3 times per day.

 

[Mittir]

@narouz

500 mg 3 times a day is 1500 mg.

I am not sure if your are taking 100 mg 3 times a day as an RP experiment
or for other reasons. My impression is that RP recommends small dose of
antibiotic to slightly lower the endotoxin burden, not to clear up the whole family.
I might have to ask him if he takes several 100 mg dose a day or one single dose.

Edit: He mentioned in peat exchange

After a first big dose or two, you should be able to sense when you have enough in your tissues; it has a noticeable smell or sensation while exhaling. I have found that 3 doses of 100mg per day for a few days is usually enough, after one or two bigger doses.

I am not sure about the context, is he talking about regular use to lower endotoxin or
this is the way he takes antibiotic for infections.

 

[Suikerbuik]

I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism.

Everything we think they know about the human body, including all Peat's work, is in the sense of reductionism . Does that mean it's not useful? No.. fortunately not.

Yes but it's not a complete knowledge. Eating well is not reductionistic and it is the road to complete knowledge.

Could you guys please describe a bit
what you mean by "reductionism" in this context?

It's an intriguing line of thinking,
but I confess I'm mostly in the dark...

Life is too complex for human beings to completely understand at this point in time. Science likes to work with 1 variable and sometimes 2, but this is not how nature works and thus we lack complete knowlegde.
Nourishing life is the basics for life to flourish and evolve (road to complete knowlegde), thus not reductionistic. However determing what eating well is and how to nourish life to full extent is a question without definitve answer because this has been established in a reductionistic way of understanding. Someone's feeling however is worth gold.

amoxicillin

This drug partly ruined my health too.

Now, I've just finished 4 days of tetracycline, 100mg, 3 times per day.

This dose is high. I'd go for max 50-100 mg/ day or every 2 days. Just a single dose.

 

[narouz]

@narouz

500 mg 3 times a day is 1500 mg.

I am not sure if your are taking 100 mg 3 times a day as an RP experiment
or for other reasons. My impression is that RP recommends small dose of
antibiotic to slightly lower the endotoxin burden, not to clear up the whole family.
I might have to ask him if he takes several 100 mg dose a day or one single dose.

Edit: He mentioned in peat exchange

After a first big dose or two, you should be able to sense when you have enough in your tissues; it has a noticeable smell or sensation while exhaling. I have found that 3 doses of 100mg per day for a few days is usually enough, after one or two bigger doses.

I am not sure about the context, is he talking about regular use to lower endotoxin or
this is the way he takes antibiotic for infections.

Couple of years ago I took Amoxicillin, 3 x 100mg for one day.
Now, just finished Tetracycline, 3 x 500mg, for 4 days.

About the Peat artifacts:
Somewhere I read more emails of advice from Peat to people asking about antibiotics.
One bit I remember:
he said he dosed partly/sometimes by taste/smell.
I'm not sure, but in that case I believe he was talking about penicillin.
He said when the body was saturated (or something to that effect),
he could taste/smell a certain phenomenon on tongue and/or in his nose--
a distinctive smell/taste.

So...if you were me, Mittir, how would you proceed:
"Let nature take its course" (just eat the usual Peat diet, etc)
or
eat a little kefir/yogurt...? :)

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism.

Everything we think they know about the human body, including all Peat's work, is in the sense of reductionism . Does that mean it's not useful? No.. fortunately not.

Yes but it's not a complete knowledge. Eating well is not reductionistic and it is the road to complete knowledge.

Could you guys please describe a bit
what you mean by "reductionism" in this context?

It's an intriguing line of thinking,
but I confess I'm mostly in the dark...

I think it's easy to see when you compare what Ray Peat has achieved versus what mainstream medicine has achieved by trying to identify every single gene. The cell enacts innumerable genetic mechanisms for one action mainly through simple "thermodynamic" balances, but they are all secondary to the cell's actual intention which is highly rational and understandable.

 

[Mittir]

@narouz

I think 3 days of tetracycline has done what it supposed to do.
You are supposed to feel better after this course.
Idea is to lower bacteria count and especially bad ones.
Now you can go back to regular peating. I would not waste time on
kefir and yogurt. Just drinking milk will supply enough food to good bacteria.