Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)

[Makrosky]

One caution I have is, while Calm the Dragon tincture was very powerful for liver stagnation, these herbs can plunder. Bupleurum is particularly strong. I think it is crazy to go around taking Xiao Yao San on any kind of daily basis.

But for injuries, I think one can't beat TCM.

I think it's crazy to take ANY chinese herbs formulas in a daily basis without consulting to a doctor. No ? They are much more complicated than, let's say, taking a single vitamin or mineral supplement.

 

[HealthisWealth]

Yeah I get you now. I don't know if what you're looking for is possible, but yes, it would be an interesting synergistical approach. It would be wonderful to get the best of both worlds.

Maybe doctor trained in western medicine and further studies of eastern medicine or vice versa?

They know in less than 5 minutes because there's more than 1000 years of accumulated empirical knowledge. It's normal. What you have, millions of people have had it before. I think they are not old school doctors though, more like materialistic TCM doctors. Why don't you try it and judge by how your symptoms go ?

The tcm doctor i tried told me the connection of thyroid-heart-gallbladder-liver.

He also gave me 2 piece of paper to follow (I follow it for a time but my taste buds asking for salt and dairy)


Clients with liver and gallbladder problems
Abstain from
Eel, beef, chicken, pigeon, turkey, geese
Crabs, shrimps, lobster, turtle
Eggs
Salty, spicy, hot & sour foods
All kind of sweets (to lighten the load of the liver)
Liquour, cigarettes, coffee
Sleeping late at night
Strenous activities, lifting heavy loads

Eat more green, leafy vegtables and easily digestable foods. Use corn or vegetable oil.
REST IS A MUST SET TIME FOR IT


Clients with heart problems
Abstain from
Oily and greasy foods. All types of animal fat
Ice & cold foods, carbonated drinks
Liquor cigarettes & coffee
Eggs
Strenous exercise

Please keep warm & be very careful of catching colds. Mild exercise such as leisurely walking is advisable

Clients with heart problems caused by goiter/thryoid should avoid cabbage, radish, eggplant, carrots for life

------

So basically the tcm doctor wants me to eat more green leafy vegetables. Im thinking is it because of calcium, magnesium and vitamin k in the greens? And pork is allowed but not beef. Lamb is also ok. Iodine is a no no so no seafoods.

Thats why im looking for other trained tcm doctors who can express tcm in western approach.

 

[tyw]

@Makrosky

For example, one can say that "Hair Loss is evident, with concurrent Liver Qi is deficient. Suspect Kidney Jing or Blood deficiency" => then go do the appropriate tests. Find out that Kidney "blood" is deficient, and that's due to pathogens attacking its complementary organ, the Urinary Bladder (eg: common to see UTIs manifest as kidney issues).

Diagnosis is done. Treatment can take many possible options, that may or may not follow traditional TCM procedures. At this point, if I want to say, "nuke the parasite with antibiotics, and then take Milk Thistle to support liver function", that may also be a viable option.

Diagnosis is distinct from Treatment. We can choose whatever treatment works once we understand the pathology.

This begs the question: How do you figure out "what treatment works". And the answer is to use whatever logic and empirical experimental evidence is available to you. There is no restriction to use TCM treatment herbs.​

TCM diagnosis is still useful -- in the example above, Western medicine wouldn't even think about looking to the kidneys over hair loss symptoms.

----

I'm almost definitely an outlier but experienced a great increase in symptoms on I think 20g ish of betaine hcl. I speculate it was too many methyl groups causing excess adrenaline but IDK.

Possibly. Again, those doses are for acute use, and should be used with appropriate support if possible.

----

What about glycine? It does raise acid production even in doses as low as 2g-3g per sitting. It is postulated to do that by opening up the chloride channels.
And since we are on that topic - what about plain salt? It has as much chloride as betaine and with a molar mass of only 1/3 that of the betaine Hcl, you'd need ~10g daily to get the same effects of the 30g betain HCl. And there are no methylation issues with eating extra salt. And incidentally, this 10g - 12g daily dose is the cutoff below which serotonin starts to rise and the catecholamine system goes in overdrive.

Sodium Chloride does not work in the context of infections, and has not been shown to work practically:

When one considers that this normal acid is derived from the tissues of the stomach or gastric membrane and not directly from the sodium chloride of the blood, one readily realizes that an ample supply of.sodium chloride alone is insufficient to restore normal gastric acidity. Rather that it is, instead, a complex process, the sodium atom being picked up and combined with the phosphorus atom, giving rise to sodium phosphates to be eliminated, thus allowing the chlorine atom to be set free to combine with the potassium and other minerals and albumins in the gastric acid cells and to be made ready for future digestive functions.

(Source)​

Glycine receptor chloride channels are unrelated to the process of killing infection, and glycine provides no extra chloride ions itself (ie: if there is an "increase in stomach acid", it is via already present chloride ions, which is not enough for clinical use of infection management). The mechanisms are completely orthogonal to Betaine HCL, and should be discussed as a separate mechanic, and not as a replacement.

.....

 

[Makrosky]

Maybe doctor trained in western medicine and further studies of eastern medicine or vice versa?



The tcm doctor i tried told me the connection of thyroid-heart-gallbladder-liver.

He also gave me 2 piece of paper to follow (I follow it for a time but my taste buds asking for salt and dairy)


Clients with liver and gallbladder problems
Abstain from
Eel, beef, chicken, pigeon, turkey, geese
Crabs, shrimps, lobster, turtle
Eggs
Salty, spicy, hot & sour foods
All kind of sweets (to lighten the load of the liver)
Liquour, cigarettes, coffee
Sleeping late at night
Strenous activities, lifting heavy loads

Eat more green, leafy vegtables and easily digestable foods. Use corn or vegetable oil.
REST IS A MUST SET TIME FOR IT


Clients with heart problems
Abstain from
Oily and greasy foods. All times of animal fat
Ice & cold foods, carbonated drinks
Liquor cigarettes & coffee
Eggs
Strenous exercise

Please keep warm & be very careful of catching colds. Mild exercise such as leisurely walking is advisable

Clients with heart problems caused by goiter/thryoid should avoid cabbage, radish, eggplant, carrots for life

------

So basically the tcm doctor wants me to eat more green leafy vegetables. Im thinking is it because of calcium, magnesium and vitamin k in the greens? And pork is allowed but not beef. Lamb is also ok. Iodine is a no no so no seafoods.

Thats why im looking for other trained tcm doctors who can express tcm in western approach.

Is this all he told you ? Then I think he's not a good TCM doctor. What the hell is "liver problems" ? Liver in TCM can have lots of problems. Liver qi stagnation, Liver fire, Liver blood deficiency... And caused by many factors. Don't know, really. You can be in favour or not of TCM but I think the basic premise for any doctor is that he is good and competent.

 

[Makrosky]

@Makrosky

For example, one can say that "Hair Loss is evident, with concurrent Liver Qi is deficient. Suspect Kidney Jing or Blood deficiency" => then go do the appropriate tests. Find out that Kidney "blood" is deficient, and that's due to pathogens attacking its complementary organ, the Urinary Bladder (eg: common to see UTIs manifest as kidney issues).

Diagnosis is done. Treatment can take many possible options, that may or may not follow traditional TCM procedures. At this point, if I want to say, "nuke the parasite with antibiotics, and then take Milk Thistle to support liver function", that may also be a viable option.

Diagnosis is distinct from Treatment. We can choose whatever treatment works once we understand the pathology.

This begs the question: How do you figure out "what treatment works". And the answer is to use whatever logic and empirical experimental evidence is available to you. There is no restriction to use TCM treatment herbs.​

TCM diagnosis is still useful -- in the example above, Western medicine wouldn't even think about looking to the kidneys over hair loss symptoms.

Ok I get your point now. Yeah, that would be a good synergistic relationship of tcm diagnostic->western treatment, as I've been saying on the lasts posts. More practical. I guess the TCM approach would be something like giving your some herbs/needles to kill the pathogen, support the liver, strenghthen the defensive qi (wei qi), tonify the organ back to a more energetic state, support immune system, etc. That's why herbal formulas can have more than a dozen herbs. Each one for a different thing. So in a pure theoretical way TCM is more complete.

The difference with your approach is that you will catch an infection again more sooner than later because your immune system is not strong. But yes, let's not get mad at this. Your point is clear and I find it interesting and share it to an extent.

 

[tyw]

Ok I get your point now. Yeah, that would be a good synergistic relationship of tcm diagnostic->western treatment, as I've been saying on the lasts posts. More practical. I guess the TCM approach would be something like giving your some herbs/needles to kill the pathogen, support the liver, strenghthen the defensive qi (wei qi), tonify the organ back to a more energetic state, support immune system, etc. That's why herbal formulas can have more than a dozen herbs. Each one for a different thing. So in a pure theoretical way TCM is more complete.

The difference with your approach is that you will catch an infection again more sooner than later because your immune system is not strong. But yes, let's not get mad at this. Your point is clear and I find it interesting.

That isn't "my approach". That is just a hypothetical demonstration of how Diagnosis can and should be de-complected from Treatment.

Treatment is always about "Purge, Tonify, Balance".

In practical terms, the purgatives used are usually "traditional herbal remedies", which are honestly, infinitely more effective than antibiotics (there are many infections that antibiotics don't even stand a chance of working on, but specific other compounds work ... I won't get into the details of distinguishing between mushroom based compounds, "bitter" herbs, etc ....)

TBH, for the tonify and balance steps however, you have to drop any strict notion of TCM. If you find Oleuropein (olive leaf extract) and Reishi to be best for tonification of the kidneys, and Molybdenum and Manganese to help balance the liver, you do that. This is where I see standard herbology failing .... herbs alone are generally lousy tonification agents (with the exception of certain mushrooms, but again, that's a different topic)

....

 

[EIRE24]

That isn't "my approach". That is just a hypothetical demonstration of how Diagnosis can and should be de-complected from Treatment.

Treatment is always about "Purge, Tonify, Balance".

In practical terms, the purgatives used are usually "traditional herbal remedies", which are honestly, infinitely more effective than antibiotics (there are many infections that antibiotics don't even stand a chance of working on, but specific other compounds work ... I won't get into the details of distinguishing between mushroom based compounds, "bitter" herbs, etc ....)

TBH, for the tonify and balance steps however, you have to drop any strict notion of TCM. If you find Oleuropein (olive leaf extract) and Reishi to be best for tonification of the kidneys, and Molybdenum and Manganese to help balance the liver, you do that. This is where I see standard herbology failing .... herbs alone are generally lousy tonification agents (with the exception of certain mushrooms, but again, that's a different topic)

....

What about antibiotics for acne?

Also, I'd be interested to hear more about the mushrooms and what you think they can help with specifically?

 

[HealthisWealth]

Is this all he told you ? Then I think he's not a good TCM doctor. What the hell is "liver problems" ? Liver in TCM can have lots of problems. Liver qi stagnation, Liver fire, Liver blood deficiency... And caused by many factors. Don't know, really. You can be in favour or not of TCM but I think the basic premise for any doctor is that he is good and competent.

The tcm doctor is chinese so communcation is really a problem. We communicate in conversational very little english and local dialect. He is very popular here even with no advertisement, no number to call. Everyday long waiting because of many patients. And while wating majority i talk to went to him because of recommendation and mostly last resort.

I search for other tcm doctors that are western trained are more on pain management accupuncture.

So i looking for one who can explain about stagnation, fire...blood. Weeks of searching the web i found two locally - i hope one of this dr can help me.

 

[Makrosky]

TBH, for the tonify and balance steps however, you have to drop any strict notion of TCM. If you find Oleuropein (olive leaf extract) and Reishi to be best for tonification of the kidneys, and Molybdenum and Manganese to help balance the liver, you do that. This is where I see standard herbology failing .... herbs alone are generally lousy tonification agents (with the exception of certain mushrooms, but again, that's a different topic)

....

The thing is that tcm herbs have been chosen and studied (empirically) over hundreds or thousands of years and they are known exactly for what will they do to the body and/or certain conditions. This is a thing we DON'T have in the west, sorry. Using molybdenum and manganese can be very useful and certainly more therapeutically powerful but we don't know yet how they interact with other nutrients. It is extremely easy to cause imbalances. Imbalances you will not notice because when a year later or 10 years later you get some problem you won't be able to understand that you disrupted your body with them. AFAIK this can't happen in TCM.

But yeah, they didn't have xenoestrogens everywhere, heavy metals, blue light 24hrs a day, pauperished soils and foods, etc. so TCM is clearly too weak for today's standards.

 

[tyw]

The thing is that tcm herbs have been chosen and studied (empirically) over hundreds or thousands of years and they are known exactly for what will they do to the body and/or certain conditions. This is a thing we DON'T have in the west, sorry. Using molybdenum and manganese can be very useful and certainly more therapeutically powerful but we don't know yet how they interact with other nutrients. It is extremely easy to cause imbalances. Imbalances you will not notice because when a year later or 10 years later you get some problem you won't be able to understand that you disrupted your body with them. AFAIK this can't happen in TCM.

And this is where I will disagree. Unfortunately, I have no evidence that I can share ..... because the clinical experience I based this on can't be shared.

The TCM herbs were used for thousands of years, by specific doctors, is specific regions of China, catered to specific people, with specific methods of growing those herbs, etc .... and then the Communists came and aggregated everything, and went "This is how to get X herb", with no respect for the all the context that the local doctor used to respect.

In today's medical usage, these herbs are not good enough. The documented effects are not accurate, and the dosages that used to work in the past do not work any more. It is also exactly because of this that using old dosing techniques can cause more imbalance in today's context.

It is extremely easy to cause imbalances, which is why we have techniques to diagnose those imbalances. Again, I reject the common TCM practices. For example, in the list that you gave earliear:

- Pulse. Not in a simplistic quantitative way as we do here, but in a very detailed and rich qualitative way. The strenght of the pulse, the elasticity, the cadence, etc..
- Tongue. How is it. Cracks, White patches. Pink spots. Etc.
- Hair, nails, etc.
- Body type
- Patient explaining his symptoms
- Emotional/mental issues
- Context
- Doctor intuition
- Temperature and rigidity/lassitude of different areas of the body (where the meridians are), not general temp.
​

Using the techniques that I learnt, we probably really only care about the patient's explanation of the symptoms, and any appropriate existing medical or developmental conditions that are present. The rest of the diagnostic criteria are unreliable.

Instead, we use different diagnostic methodologies that give us real-time access to all the appropriate systems in the body. This is how to determine what is a safe compound vs what is not, and describe those effects from both a Chinese Medical and Western medical context.

Note: like I said, I do not reveal exactly what I know online. But if people have been reading my prior posts, I have said that the techniques were similar to Dietrich Klinghardts ART and Dr Marshall's QRA. That knowledge is available online, and if one sees the methodology there, they will understand how it is possible to test and monitor everything in the body very efficiently.​

....

 

[Makrosky]

And this is where I will disagree. Unfortunately, I have no evidence that I can share ..... because the clinical experience I based this on can't be shared.

The TCM herbs were used for thousands of years, by specific doctors, is specific regions of China, catered to specific people, with specific methods of growing those herbs, etc .... and then the Communists came and aggregated everything, and went "This is how to get X herb", with no respect for the all the context that the local doctor used to respect.

In today's medical usage, these herbs are not good enough. The documented effects are not accurate, and the dosages that used to work in the past do not work any more. It is also exactly because of this that using old dosing techniques can cause more imbalance in today's context.

It is extremely easy to cause imbalances, which is why we have techniques to diagnose those imbalances. Again, I reject the common TCM practices. For example, in the list that you gave earliear:

- Pulse. Not in a simplistic quantitative way as we do here, but in a very detailed and rich qualitative way. The strenght of the pulse, the elasticity, the cadence, etc..
- Tongue. How is it. Cracks, White patches. Pink spots. Etc.
- Hair, nails, etc.
- Body type
- Patient explaining his symptoms
- Emotional/mental issues
- Context
- Doctor intuition
- Temperature and rigidity/lassitude of different areas of the body (where the meridians are), not general temp.
​

Using the techniques that I learnt, we probably really only care about the patient's explanation of the symptoms, and any appropriate existing medical or developmental conditions that are present. The rest of the diagnostic criteria are unreliable.

Instead, we use different diagnostic methodologies that give us real-time access to all the appropriate systems in the body. This is how to determine what is a safe compound vs what is not, and describe those effects from both a Chinese Medical and Western medical context.

Note: like I said, I do not reveal exactly what I know online. But if people have been reading my prior posts, I have said that the techniques were similar to Dietrich Klinghardts ART and Dr Marshall's QRA. That knowledge is available online, and if one sees the methodology there, they will understand how it is possible to test and monitor everything in the body very efficiently.​

....

Yes tyw we are not disagreeing in reality. I also think TCM is based for agricultural societies based on grain and vegetables nutrition. So all nutritional advice is biased towards that. TCM in a tropical country or in a country with historical use of heavy dairy diets, is absolutely non sense, just to clarify my point. And yes I stated that TCM is probably not enough powerful for todays needs. But still to me it seems more balanced and holistic than other approaches.

Too bad you won't share it online!! :-( :-( I'm very curious, but I respect that of course.

I've checked the ART and QRA things... it's like kinesiology, right ? I'll read a bit more about them and let you know. I normally dismiss these techniques but if you say the work good, at least I will dedicate some time to dig more info about them.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Hola tyw,

Very nice discussion. Good thread really. Learning (trying) a lot.

And as always... more questions than answers ;-)

What makes you think the meridian system (as in TCM) is made of collagen ?


Giving that you are learning TCM... This central idea of communication you are repeating reminds me... TCM! You know all the stuff about the liver being the general, rebellious qi, etc.





I think your point is very valid. There's a reason why the body does the things it does. We could discuss about wether this is accurate or desirable or mechanisms to force/accompany the body out of those homeostatic/adaptative states. Really out of the scope of my comment right now. What I want to point out is that serotonin case is special. Very special. Serotonin is the direct cause of learned helplessness. In that state, even what you could do to escape/heal from a certain state, you won't do it. So lowering artificially serotonin is a WISE action. I've been there myself and tianeptine (serotonin lowering) has helped me inmensely. How are you going to change the things that are making your body adapt to a lower function (i.e stress) you if you can't think further than 24 hours on. When you are in stress mode you can't think about long term. Only immediate fight or flight that would burn out your energy reserves and bring you... more learned helplessness. It's a rat that knows how to swim but stops doing so and drowns. The image is powerful, isn't it ? So to that regard, yes, oposing serotonin is VERY WISE and desirable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you've never experienced the high stress/learned helplessness situation I'm talking about, right ? (I'm not saying this in any offensive manner). You would think very different, trust me. From a theoretical point of view it's easy to say yeah.. the body is wise... but quite often is not just your body man, it's lots of external stressors.



Strange you study TCM and Ray Peat at the same time. A few things to remark :
- TCM would never recommend the same diet or nutritional approach for everyone, as Peat (or our interpretation of Peat) does.
- I'm not an expert on TCM (just an ammateur) but I've never encountered any TCM text advocating for thyroid hormone supplementation. That is very strange considering TCM has a long history of using all sorts of herbs and bizarre animal parts. Don't you think it's strange ?
- This reminds me of this article from a reputed TCM doctor and author. I hope you like it. And let me know what you think if you like! All Disease comes from the heart




What are your woowoo TCM methods ? Pulse ? I always wanted to know enough TCM pulse diagnosis to test what any supplement does on me. I remember when doing almost a year of TCM therapy my TCM doctor would take the pulse for a few secs... then frown...then put some needles...then take the pulse again...frown less...put some more needles...pulse again..."aha, now", smiled, and then left me 20 mins with the needles on. I was always amazed of that. And I always thought... wow... if I could know my diagnosis by pulse, then have some supps, and then re-test again and see what it did... that would be VERY powerful to advance in self-healing using supps. What do you think ?

By the way are you studying formal TCM courses ? Or amateur ?

Sorry tyw for so many questions.... I owe you a beer. And one to haidut as well.

I won't reply to anything else you said, yet. I'm still thinking. But I want to correct you. I have experienced horrible learned helplessness and depression my entire life. Only recently have I begun to crawl my way out. I understand.

 

[HealthisWealth]

@Makrosky @Pet Peeve @tyw

Do you know about Lingzhi? Im browsing a local forum here, women talking about how to gain weight. And the feedback they really gain weight. In tcm explanation how is this possible?

 

[Makrosky]

@Makrosky @Pet Peeve @tyw

Do you know about Lingzhi? Im browsing a local forum here, women talking about how to gain weight. And the feedback they really gain weight. In tcm explanation how is this possible?

Nope sorry, I don't know about it.

 

[Makrosky]

I won't reply to anything else you said, yet. I'm still thinking. But I want to correct you. I have experienced horrible learned helplessness and depression my entire life. Only recently have I begun to crawl my way out. I understand.

Ok man. Sorry. Please answer when you feel like it I would be very glad to listen to your comments.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Ok man. Sorry. Please answer when you feel like it I would be very glad to listen to your comments.

You're completely fine. Honestly I was just being dramatic. I'm still thinking about all of this. I'll say something when I actually have something worth saying, a novel idea. For now I agree with tyw. Best wishes.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Ok man. Sorry. Please answer when you feel like it I would be very glad to listen to your comments.

Okay so here's a thought for right now. Why does homeostasis exist? Why do we become tolerant to almost all drugs, reducing effectiveness and requiring higher dosages for the same effects? It's because, in my opinion, the cell is trying to maintain signaling and intelligence. It's trying to make sure that it's reading the environment correctly. When you add drugs like cyproheptadine, sure you might get some short term benefits like better bowel movements or better wellbeing, but all this does is confuse the cell and not let it act appropriately to the environment.

 

[papaya]

@Makrosky

For example, one can say that "Hair Loss is evident, with concurrent Liver Qi is deficient. Suspect Kidney Jing or Blood deficiency" => then go do the appropriate tests. Find out that Kidney "blood" is deficient, and that's due to pathogens attacking its complementary organ, the Urinary Bladder (eg: common to see UTIs manifest as kidney issues).

Diagnosis is done. Treatment can take many possible options, that may or may not follow traditional TCM procedures. At this point, if I want to say, "nuke the parasite with antibiotics, and then take Milk Thistle to support liver function", that may also be a viable option.

Diagnosis is distinct from Treatment. We can choose whatever treatment works once we understand the pathology.

This begs the question: How do you figure out "what treatment works". And the answer is to use whatever logic and empirical experimental evidence is available to you. There is no restriction to use TCM treatment herbs.​

TCM diagnosis is still useful -- in the example above, Western medicine wouldn't even think about looking to the kidneys over hair loss symptoms.

----



Possibly. Again, those doses are for acute use, and should be used with appropriate support if possible.

----



Sodium Chloride does not work in the context of infections, and has not been shown to work practically:

When one considers that this normal acid is derived from the tissues of the stomach or gastric membrane and not directly from the sodium chloride of the blood, one readily realizes that an ample supply of.sodium chloride alone is insufficient to restore normal gastric acidity. Rather that it is, instead, a complex process, the sodium atom being picked up and combined with the phosphorus atom, giving rise to sodium phosphates to be eliminated, thus allowing the chlorine atom to be set free to combine with the potassium and other minerals and albumins in the gastric acid cells and to be made ready for future digestive functions.

(Source)​

Glycine receptor chloride channels are unrelated to the process of killing infection, and glycine provides no extra chloride ions itself (ie: if there is an "increase in stomach acid", it is via already present chloride ions, which is not enough for clinical use of infection management). The mechanisms are completely orthogonal to Betaine HCL, and should be discussed as a separate mechanic, and not as a replacement.
Does this mean that magnesium chloride isn't useful either for infections? In another thread someone wAs talking about using magnesium chloride successfully to cure infections.
.....

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Okay so here's a thought for right now. Why does homeostasis exist? Why do we become tolerant to almost all drugs, reducing effectiveness and requiring higher dosages for the same effects? It's because, in my opinion, the cell is trying to maintain signaling and intelligence. It's trying to make sure that it's reading the environment correctly. When you add drugs like cyproheptadine, sure you might get some short term benefits like better bowel movements or better wellbeing, but all this does is confuse the cell and not let it act appropriately to the environment.

Basically my point is, why does homeostasis exist in the first place? In my opinion, it's a defense against disorder, against entropy. Using blunt drugs just creates an axis that everything else has to revolve around. It creates a weakpoint that everything else has to compensate for. Using a drug such as cyproheptadine creates so much work for the body in order to keep balance. I have never seen someone heal themselves using drugs such as these.

And sure you can point to pinhole benefits. But that doesn't mean anything. Sometimes in studies they'll say that a certain substance reduces lipid peroxidation or reduces ROS. Sure we can say these things happen, but what does that mean for the actual living breathing organism? Mitochondrial uncouplers reduce ROS but can also reduce ATP production. Less lipid peroxidation might be good but it might also mean less oxidation and less energy production. So when we have a study of a certain drug improving a narrow variable in a study, like glucose tolerance, it doesn't actually mean that the organism is getting healthier, it just means we are forcing it to act a certain way, a way we've deemed to be healthy, or the organism acts as if it were healthy but is actually not.

 

[Makrosky]

Basically my point is, why does homeostasis exist in the first place? In my opinion, it's a defense against disorder, against entropy. Using blunt drugs just creates an axis that everything else has to revolve around. It creates a weakpoint that everything else has to compensate for. Using a drug such as cyproheptadine creates so much work for the body in order to keep balance. I have never seen someone heal themselves using drugs such as these.

And sure you can point to pinhole benefits. But that doesn't mean anything. Sometimes in studies they'll say that a certain substance reduces lipid peroxidation or reduces ROS. Sure we can say these things happen, but what does that mean for the actual living breathing organism? Mitochondrial uncouplers reduce ROS but can also reduce ATP production. Less lipid peroxidation might be good but it might also mean less oxidation and less energy production. So when we have a study of a certain drug improving a narrow variable in a study, like glucose tolerance, it doesn't actually mean that the organism is getting healthier, it just means we are forcing it to act a certain way, a way we've deemed to be healthy, or the organism acts as if it were healthy but is actually not.

Ok I understand what you mean. Yes it makes sense. I also think the body works like that...BUT I don't know then how to restore proper functioning without drugs, supplements, special diet, etc... So that's why I use them. I know there might be better approaches but those are the ones that I'm knowledgeable of.

And the positives outweight the negatives in my case.

What are your strategies for healing then ? That don't disturb the homeostasis. At a practical level, not theories.