Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)

[Makrosky]

I will say with no proof other than clinical experience and thousands of years of Chinese Medicine, that the "pipes" that transport energy through the body are:
- The collagen meridian system (as documented by the Chinese)
- Muscle Fascia (whole thing is important)
- Blood and Lymph

Hola tyw,

Very nice discussion. Good thread really. Learning (trying) a lot.

And as always... more questions than answers ;-)

What makes you think the meridian system (as in TCM) is made of collagen ?

I still hold to the idea that communication is the main problem, and a lack of consensus is what causes cells to go rouge. There are clearly states that we go through every day which demands lesser energy usage -- sleep for one, and this is achieved by the forced consensus inflicted upon the body by the night time environment (unless it is disrupted, then bad things start to happen). In other words, all cells in a system communicating and agreeing upon a low energy state is not pathological.

Giving that you are learning TCM... This central idea of communication you are repeating reminds me... TCM! You know all the stuff about the liver being the general, rebellious qi, etc.

Low serotonin is probably indicative of good health. Lowering serotonin through drugs however will probably not give you good health. Low serotonin is good because it means there's low stress on cells. Lowering serotonin artificially probably stresses the cells.

Yes. It think the body knows what it's doing. I don't think fiddling directly with things such as serotonin is smart, in most cases.

I think your point is very valid. There's a reason why the body does the things it does. We could discuss about wether this is accurate or desirable or mechanisms to force/accompany the body out of those homeostatic/adaptative states. Really out of the scope of my comment right now. What I want to point out is that serotonin case is special. Very special. Serotonin is the direct cause of learned helplessness. In that state, even what you could do to escape/heal from a certain state, you won't do it. So lowering artificially serotonin is a WISE action. I've been there myself and tianeptine (serotonin lowering) has helped me inmensely. How are you going to change the things that are making your body adapt to a lower function (i.e stress) you if you can't think further than 24 hours on. When you are in stress mode you can't think about long term. Only immediate fight or flight that would burn out your energy reserves and bring you... more learned helplessness. It's a rat that knows how to swim but stops doing so and drowns. The image is powerful, isn't it ? So to that regard, yes, oposing serotonin is VERY WISE and desirable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you've never experienced the high stress/learned helplessness situation I'm talking about, right ? (I'm not saying this in any offensive manner). You would think very different, trust me. From a theoretical point of view it's easy to say yeah.. the body is wise... but quite often is not just your body man, it's lots of external stressors.

Best diet is that which causes you the least stress. Seeking a good diet is about "stress reduction", not "energy optimisation".

I do not care for optimising macronutrient ratios unless it is for specific athletic performance purposes.

In my experience, disease is almost always caused by some factor other than nutrition (with the exception of over- and under-nutrition).

Strange you study TCM and Ray Peat at the same time. A few things to remark :
- TCM would never recommend the same diet or nutritional approach for everyone, as Peat (or our interpretation of Peat) does.
- I'm not an expert on TCM (just an ammateur) but I've never encountered any TCM text advocating for thyroid hormone supplementation. That is very strange considering TCM has a long history of using all sorts of herbs and bizarre animal parts. Don't you think it's strange ?
- This reminds me of this article from a reputed TCM doctor and author. I hope you like it. And let me know what you think if you like! All Disease comes from the heart

Never touched any thyroid medications before. Never really did well with natural thyroid as well.

Supplements vary according to needs, though usually it is restricted to methylation support (Mo, Mn, Li, 5-MHTF), and then Pregnenolone and DHEA (oral). Only taken when needed, determined through my wooowooo TCM methodologies.

Occasional herbal remedies as needed in response to pathogens ... too many varieties to list here. As a generic anti-pathogen though, I always carry a lot of Betaine HCL in case of major infection.

What are your woowoo TCM methods ? Pulse ? I always wanted to know enough TCM pulse diagnosis to test what any supplement does on me. I remember when doing almost a year of TCM therapy my TCM doctor would take the pulse for a few secs... then frown...then put some needles...then take the pulse again...frown less...put some more needles...pulse again..."aha, now", smiled, and then left me 20 mins with the needles on. I was always amazed of that. And I always thought... wow... if I could know my diagnosis by pulse, then have some supps, and then re-test again and see what it did... that would be VERY powerful to advance in self-healing using supps. What do you think ?

By the way are you studying formal TCM courses ? Or amateur ?

Sorry tyw for so many questions.... I owe you a beer. And one to haidut as well.

 

[Makrosky]

Largely unknown. It just seems to work well, and had a history of very effective use for infectious disease until its use was stopped in the mid 1930s -- Hydrochloric Acid Therapy

Oral dosages seem to work just as well as intravenous dosages.

Back then, pure hydrochloric acid was used, along with other Cl- ion containing compounds, which means that mechanism is likely tied directly to the presence of Cl- ions. The likely site of action is neutrophil-mediated immunity, which requires Hydrogen Peroxide and Chloride Ions to function well -- Neutrophil - Wikipedia

Adding more Cl- ions via hydrochloric acid probably bolstered this immune response, and served to kill any pathogens that Neutrophils came into contact with.

However, if one reads that first linked article, some of the cures are not adequately explained by immune reactions alone. Hence I say, "mechanism unknown".

Today we prefer Betaine HCL due to the ease of dosing, and somewhat ability to tolerate higher doses without the massive side effects of having to drink or inject other Cl- based compounds.

There is speculation that any Betaine ion is going to be useful in inhibiting the activity of certain viruses (in this case, the most common form of glycine betaine / trimethylglycine was used, and this should be the most common form found in supplements) -- http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b01180

The fact that viruses are known to colonise to the gut, where such supplements will be delivered, makes this mechanic even more potentially promising -- The human gut virome: Inter-individual variation and dynamic response to diet

NOTE: the topic of viruses is a huge and very politically-charged area of research. That one page I just linked to alone has enormous implications for everything related with gut flora. IMO, people study gut flora are completely blind if they do not also study the gut virome.

I will not comment further regarding the topic of viruses ​

The above is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the effects are far-reaching. However, we still cannot mechanically describe all these effects.

In any case, it just seems to work ..... and the side effects of even 30 gram a day doses are minor. The only hard thing to tolerate is the burn of having to stomach that much HCL, but again, side effects seem minimal, especially if doses are evenly spread out through the day.

.....

Another question tyw... you're gonna hate me ;-)

I think it's implied in your comments that you catch virical infections very often ? That's strange, no ? I mean... what kind of viruses do you use Betaine to fight ? Flu ? Seasonal stomachal viruses like in winter months ? Or are you saying there are latent virus infections that don't produce externally visible symptoms ?

 

[Makrosky]

One can easily take a digestive enzyme containing Betaine HCL with a meal. It works wonders for your digestion. I used to have SIBO and sulfur plus the digestive enzymes keep any sort of tummy problem in check. For anyone, NOW Super Ezymes work great.

I used that exact same product in the past and can confirm it works wonders. However I don't want to become hooked to those. There is controversy if continuosly giving the body digestive enzymes supress your own production.

 

[tyw]

Does taking thyroid meds/ndt cause imbalances?

Raw Thyroid is subject to a whole bunch of regulatory mechanisms -- less chance of excess.

"Thyroid Meds" like T3 obviously have a direct effect on tissues. I am not a doctor, and no recommendations are made on what are prescription-only meds.

Similarly, no recommendations are made regarding TCM professionals, because I have no professional qualifications whatsoever.

Another question tyw... you're gonna hate me ;-)

I think it's implied in your comments that you catch virical infections very often ? That's strange, no ? I mean... what kind of viruses do you use Betaine to fight ? Flu ? Seasonal stomachal viruses like in winter months ? Or are you saying there are latent virus infections that don't produce externally visible symptoms ?

Me keeping Betaine HCL around is as a precautionary measure. When you don't need this, you don't, and when you do, you really do .

Not going to comment much on viruses, except to say that infections are more common than people they think they are , and that a virus (or inhibition of a virus) is usually the first step in permitting a more virulent co-infection from taking hold.

I will not get into the discussion of what a virus is, except to say that the book 'Fear of the Invisible' provides a good model.

For those still interested in viruses, I have already linked to that research paper on the gut virome. Like I said in a previous post, the entire field is very politically charged, and I will not comment on specifics.

The one area that is probably safe to delve into, are the research into Bacteriophages. If one is interested, do some research into the T-even phages, and look at all the bacteria that they affect, and then look at the virome profile of various people (where you will see that some people have certain phages, and some people don't .... which means that some people are innately resistant to the bacteria that the phages target).

Then, if still interested, look up Bacteriophage therapy, which has a history of very effective use (almost 100 years), but has been largely ignored by Western Medicine (probably because it was a "Communist Science").

----

I'm not going to comment further on the testing methodologies that I use. Like I've said, if I meet someone in person, I will assess the relationship, and convey the information if appropriate. But never online, and never in public.

I do not have any formal training whatsoever, and hence am not qualified to speak formally about the subject.

----

The only other online source of TCM information (other than Jerry Allan Johnson) I trust online is Subhuti Dharmananda -- Institute for Traditional Medicine | ITM | Portland, OR

Strange you study TCM and Ray Peat at the same time. A few things to remark :
- TCM would never recommend the same diet or nutritional approach for everyone, as Peat (or our interpretation of Peat) does.
- I'm not an expert on TCM (just an ammateur) but I've never encountered any TCM text advocating for thyroid hormone supplementation. That is very strange considering TCM has a long history of using all sorts of herbs and bizarre animal parts. Don't you think it's strange ?
- This reminds me of this article from a reputed TCM doctor and author. I hope you like it. And let me know what you think if you like! All Disease comes from the heart

Reading diet, there is a whole system of eating for the season and what not in order to "tonify the particular Qi or Jing" of a particular organ in its "low or high season", etc, etc ..... As I've said above, I personally think that is impractical and overly dogmatic. All I focus on is on the elimination of foods that actively cause stress in an individual at a particular time.

In that regard, I eschew the approach of saying that a particular food is "good" or "bad". Coffee will cause some sick people much grief. I still can't handle large quantities of dairy proteins. Some people will keel over from a little bit of gluten (while I do not, at almost any quantity). Some people can't handle strawberries .....

Same with the comment on Thyroid -- use it when it is needed. I do not buy the dogmatic approach of TCM, and frankly, of all the herbs that are used, only maybe 40-50 are actually useful .... I am not well versed in formulation however, so do not take this comment seriously.

All disease does not come from the heart ..... . IMO, emotional imbalance are always secondary to pathology. Also emotions don't come from the heart (ask the people who have tried breathing exercises that directly stimulate the region around the Solar Plexus)

----

What makes you think the meridian system (as in TCM) is made of collagen?

Because we can physically modify those points as documented by the Chinese, and see systemic effects in the body (which is exactly what acupuncture does).

And because Ayurvedic medicine has discovered the same points (actually, Ayurveda has much more points ....).

And because the modern practice of Osteopathy has discovered similar behaviour in fascia, along with a whole bunch of "reflex points" (points which when stimulated, reliably produce a particular movement reflex in the rest of the body).

.....

 

[Regina]

Hola tyw,

All Disease comes from the heart

Nice article Makrosky.
The mind/heart is shen. So, I definitely think what let into our mind/heart has an enormous effect on our health.
I tend more toward the Buddhist view than Confucianism (which I find just as authoratarian as Christianity).

 

[papaya]

Raw Thyroid is subject to a whole bunch of regulatory mechanisms -- less chance of excess.

"Thyroid Meds" like T3 obviously have a direct effect on tissues. I am not a doctor, and no recommendations are made on what are prescription-only meds.

Similarly, no recommendations are made regarding TCM professionals, because I have no professional qualifications whatsoever.



Me keeping Betaine HCL around is as a precautionary measure. When you don't need this, you don't, and when you do, you really do .

Not going to comment much on viruses, except to say that infections are more common than people they think they are , and that a virus (or inhibition of a virus) is usually the first step in permitting a more virulent co-infection from taking hold.

I will not get into the discussion of what a virus is, except to say that the book 'Fear of the Invisible' provides a good model.

For those still interested in viruses, I have already linked to that research paper on the gut virome. Like I said in a previous post, the entire field is very politically charged, and I will not comment on specifics.

The one area that is probably safe to delve into, are the research into Bacteriophages. If one is interested, do some research into the T-even phages, and look at all the bacteria that they affect, and then look at the virome profile of various people (where you will see that some people have certain phages, and some people don't .... which means that some people are innately resistant to the bacteria that the phages target).

Then, if still interested, look up Bacteriophage therapy, which has a history of very effective use (almost 100 years), but has been largely ignored by Western Medicine (probably because it was a "Communist Science").

----

I'm not going to comment further on the testing methodologies that I use. Like I've said, if I meet someone in person, I will assess the relationship, and convey the information if appropriate. But never online, and never in public.

I do not have any formal training whatsoever, and hence am not qualified to speak formally about the subject.

----

The only other online source of TCM information (other than Jerry Allan Johnson) I trust online is Subhuti Dharmananda -- Institute for Traditional Medicine | ITM | Portland, OR



Reading diet, there is a whole system of eating for the season and what not in order to "tonify the particular Qi or Jing" of a particular organ in its "low or high season", etc, etc ..... As I've said above, I personally think that is impractical and overly dogmatic. All I focus on is on the elimination of foods that actively cause stress in an individual at a particular time.

In that regard, I eschew the approach of saying that a particular food is "good" or "bad". Coffee will cause some sick people much grief. I still can't handle large quantities of dairy proteins. Some people will keel over from a little bit of gluten (while I do not, at almost any quantity). Some people can't handle strawberries .....

Same with the comment on Thyroid -- use it when it is needed. I do not buy the dogmatic approach of TCM, and frankly, of all the herbs that are used, only maybe 40-50 are actually useful .... I am not well versed in formulation however, so do not take this comment seriously.

All disease does not come from the heart ..... . IMO, emotional imbalance are always secondary to pathology. Also emotions don't come from the heart (ask the people who have tried breathing exercises that directly stimulate the region around the Solar Plexus)

----



Because we can physically modify those points as documented by the Chinese, and see systemic effects in the body (which is exactly what acupuncture does).

And because Ayurvedic medicine has discovered the same points (actually, Ayurveda has much more points ....).

And because the modern practice of Osteopathy has discovered similar behaviour in fascia, along with a whole bunch of "reflex points" (points which when stimulated, reliably produce a particular movement reflex in the rest of the body).

.....

what r your thoughts on dmso? in your opinion would taking ndt in dmso force to much hormone into your tissues? i've heard about taking digestive enzymes for curing cancer, but i thought it had something to do with dissolving the protein around the cell or something like that. i guess it has more to do with killing the cancer causing viruses??? what are your thoughts on methylene blue? btw, thank u so much for always answering my questions!!! i'm aware that all information is your personal opinion & that you're just a very, very, very smart person & not a trained md.

 

[Makrosky]

Raw Thyroid is subject to a whole bunch of regulatory mechanisms -- less chance of excess.

"Thyroid Meds" like T3 obviously have a direct effect on tissues. I am not a doctor, and no recommendations are made on what are prescription-only meds.

Similarly, no recommendations are made regarding TCM professionals, because I have no professional qualifications whatsoever.



Me keeping Betaine HCL around is as a precautionary measure. When you don't need this, you don't, and when you do, you really do .

Not going to comment much on viruses, except to say that infections are more common than people they think they are , and that a virus (or inhibition of a virus) is usually the first step in permitting a more virulent co-infection from taking hold.

I will not get into the discussion of what a virus is, except to say that the book 'Fear of the Invisible' provides a good model.

For those still interested in viruses, I have already linked to that research paper on the gut virome. Like I said in a previous post, the entire field is very politically charged, and I will not comment on specifics.

The one area that is probably safe to delve into, are the research into Bacteriophages. If one is interested, do some research into the T-even phages, and look at all the bacteria that they affect, and then look at the virome profile of various people (where you will see that some people have certain phages, and some people don't .... which means that some people are innately resistant to the bacteria that the phages target).

Then, if still interested, look up Bacteriophage therapy, which has a history of very effective use (almost 100 years), but has been largely ignored by Western Medicine (probably because it was a "Communist Science").

----

I'm not going to comment further on the testing methodologies that I use. Like I've said, if I meet someone in person, I will assess the relationship, and convey the information if appropriate. But never online, and never in public.

I do not have any formal training whatsoever, and hence am not qualified to speak formally about the subject.

----

The only other online source of TCM information (other than Jerry Allan Johnson) I trust online is Subhuti Dharmananda -- Institute for Traditional Medicine | ITM | Portland, OR



Reading diet, there is a whole system of eating for the season and what not in order to "tonify the particular Qi or Jing" of a particular organ in its "low or high season", etc, etc ..... As I've said above, I personally think that is impractical and overly dogmatic. All I focus on is on the elimination of foods that actively cause stress in an individual at a particular time.

In that regard, I eschew the approach of saying that a particular food is "good" or "bad". Coffee will cause some sick people much grief. I still can't handle large quantities of dairy proteins. Some people will keel over from a little bit of gluten (while I do not, at almost any quantity). Some people can't handle strawberries .....

Same with the comment on Thyroid -- use it when it is needed. I do not buy the dogmatic approach of TCM, and frankly, of all the herbs that are used, only maybe 40-50 are actually useful .... I am not well versed in formulation however, so do not take this comment seriously.

All disease does not come from the heart ..... . IMO, emotional imbalance are always secondary to pathology. Also emotions don't come from the heart (ask the people who have tried breathing exercises that directly stimulate the region around the Solar Plexus)

----



Because we can physically modify those points as documented by the Chinese, and see systemic effects in the body (which is exactly what acupuncture does).

And because Ayurvedic medicine has discovered the same points (actually, Ayurveda has much more points ....).

And because the modern practice of Osteopathy has discovered similar behaviour in fascia, along with a whole bunch of "reflex points" (points which when stimulated, reliably produce a particular movement reflex in the rest of the body).

.....

Ok, thanks for your answers tyw.

Regarding TCM approach... I don't think it's dogmatic. I think it's TCM practitioners (and/or obsessive patients) who make it dogmatic. Besides that, I think TCM is very valid as a health practice. The only problem is I don't think it's ready to cope with XXI century stressors: call it social problems, chemical pollutants, poor quality food, etc. All that is too much to expect it to be healed with just herbs or accupuncture.

--

Regarding emotional/physical illness... Well... I don't know what to think. I linked you that article so you could have another point of view. I think it's plausible. So if you think illnesses do not come from nutrition, and don't come from mental issues. Where do they come from ?

 

[Makrosky]

Yes @Regina, confucianism looks very authoritarian. But it has to be understood on its context. Nevertheless, I think taoism as a philosophy is much more wiser. I think Taoism is to Confucianism like Christian Mystics to Catolic Church.

 

[Regina]

Yes @Regina, confucianism looks very authoritarian. But it has to be understood on its context. Nevertheless, I think taoism as a philosophy is much more wiser. I think Taoism is to Confucianism like Christian Mystics to Catolic Church.

Yea. I haven't read many texts. But in the ones I have, Confucianism seems to come out of nowhere--almost like an obligatory hat-tip to authority. It's almost funny when the author changes gears. For example in: Sword of Zen: Master Takuan Writings on Immovable Wisdom. He changes gears and brown-noses the Emperor. And in Tohei's: Discourse on the Inexhaustible Lamp, the shift to acknowledgement of Confucianism again seems off-topic and somewhat forced. Again, in Hakuin's commentary on the Heart Sutra: Zen Words For The Heart, the hat-tip to Confucianism is incoherent and illogical.
I think it is similar to when Peat references Thoreau's natural man distinguished from culture.

Wrt to the article, I have had huge positive effect from Kan Traditionals Calm the Dragon tincture. It is a riff on the Xiao Yao San referenced in the article. Except that it is stupid expensive. I'm going back many yrs though and had horrid nutrition. Gratefully, I found a wonderful D.O.M. and she would say, "no cake; eat bone broth; eat fruit" and give me a dixie cup full of her brew riff on Calm the Dragon. Very powerful tincture for liver stagnation.

 

[HealthisWealth]

Case in point: Go look up the Melbourne "Thunderstorm Asthma November 2016" that is ongoing right now. "External Pathogens" include everything from larger scale electromagnetic phenomena such as that recent storm, which preferentially affected particular people in particular parts of their body, to specific organisms that burrow into your body and cause all sorts of havoc.

The approach that Chinese Medicine takes to diagnosis is the only thing that becomes useful in this regard. We do not need to raise the question of "why did this pathogen invade?", and instead seek to answer "which systems are damaged?", and "in what way are they damaged?". Then, we can do the same old 3-step Purge-Tonify-Balance procedure.

I have talked about how "Traditional Chinese Medicine" today is really a Communist-party-distilled version of Chinese Medicine, and not the original "Thousands Schools of Chinese Medicine", where each family had their own unique methodology. This has instilled a certain dogma right into the heart of the existing system.

In any case, I've also commented in the past that it is the diagnostic methodology of Chinese Medicine that is the most useful, while the treatment methodology is sorely lacking. That is why you hear me talk about Western Pharmacological cures like Betaine HCL, or specific trace minerals, etc .... It is the combination that produces the best results.

....

How do TCM as diagnostic, diagnose those phenomena and specific organism that burrows in body?

 

[Makrosky]

Honestly, I've never seen any health issues in people using up to 30 grams of Betaine HCL a day. The biggest side effect is the discomfort of the accompanying heartburn-like effects. Effective doses seem to start around 6 grams in a single dose.

Again, this is for infection clearance.

IBS is a whole different story that usually requires different cures. These usually tend to be pretty harsh herbs with strong alkaloids, and require more controlled doses. Though honestly, the most generic "Huo Xiang" / agastache rugosa seems to work just fine for many at the recommended doses. (This is sold as 藿香正气散, huo4 xiang1 zheng1 qi4 san4)



I've already established that it's the supra-physiologic levels of Chloride ions are causing the anti-pathogenic effect. These have to be provided by an external source.

Keep in mind the context that I've qualified for use -- removing of existing active infections, whether they be viral, bacterial, protozoan, archae, etc ... I am not talking about chronic use to "keep pathogens at bay" or anything like that. We have an existing infection, and we want to kill it as quickly as possible.

Thiamine HCL will not provide anywhere close to the required dosages to see this sort of effect. Note how we are talking of sometimes 30+ grams of Betaine HCL a day.

Thiamine has a higher molecular weight than commonly used Betaines, so the equivalent does of Cl- ions requires even more Thiamine HCL by mass. There is no way to achieve the required dose of Cl- through Thiamine HCL, without also overdosing Thiamine to a ridiculous degree and suffering lots of negative side effects.




Illness stems from the 4 types of "injury" that are defined in Chinese Medicine. I have talked about this in another post -- Carbonic Anhydrase Is A Key Driver Of Aging; Inhibiting It Is Beneficial

The point "(2) Invasion of External Pathogens" is the biggest wildcard -- one which those from a Western medical background will find hardest to accept, and one which Eastern mysticism will rear its ugly woo-woo head.

Case in point: Go look up the Melbourne "Thunderstorm Asthma November 2016" that is ongoing right now. "External Pathogens" include everything from larger scale electromagnetic phenomena such as that recent storm, which preferentially affected particular people in particular parts of their body, to specific organisms that burrow into your body and cause all sorts of havoc.

The approach that Chinese Medicine takes to diagnosis is the only thing that becomes useful in this regard. We do not need to raise the question of "why did this pathogen invade?", and instead seek to answer "which systems are damaged?", and "in what way are they damaged?". Then, we can do the same old 3-step Purge-Tonify-Balance procedure.

I have talked about how "Traditional Chinese Medicine" today is really a Communist-party-distilled version of Chinese Medicine, and not the original "Thousands Schools of Chinese Medicine", where each family had their own unique methodology. This has instilled a certain dogma right into the heart of the existing system.

In any case, I've also commented in the past that it is the diagnostic methodology of Chinese Medicine that is the most useful, while the treatment methodology is sorely lacking. That is why you hear me talk about Western Pharmacological cures like Betaine HCL, or specific trace minerals, etc .... It is the combination that produces the best results.

....

Yeah Tyw, I agree with you a lot in the last paragraph. TCM diagnosis is very good, and it would be a shame to not use the products that we today have avaliable that are much powerful than what chinese doctors had. That is out of discussion. But I still don't understand how can you separate the diagnosis from the treatment, if you take it seriously. For instance, if you are constantly attackd by external pathogens, your "wei qi" is weak. If you treat them with Betaine HCL you are killing the pathogens but your "wei qi" is still weak. I'm not critisizing your (or anyone) methods, by all means do what works for you in absence of something better.

You claim TCM has been perverted under the communist influence (in reality you mean dialectic materialism I think). Yes, it is very true. When Mao started to **** up TCM they were forming and sending TCM "doctors" to all remote China areas, they were the "300ers". 300 illneses, 300 accupoints, 300 herbs. The total and shameful reduction. Sad. And then Westerners we picked up the TCM fine science and also make it pass through our materialistic rationalistic filter, so more of that. But it is not the original TCM. Just a variation, which has its pros BTW. That's why I linked that heart article. That is totally anticommunist TCM in action :) What's more materialistic than reducing things to food ? I can't imagine any single more materialistic thing than that.

Hey.... I don't know where this conversation is going. I'm not a TCM expert whatsoever. But I find it nice :)

 

[Makrosky]

How do TCM as diagnostic, diagnose those phenomena and specific organism that burrows in body?

A few things :
- Pulse. Not in a simplistic quantitative way as we do here, but in a very detailed and rich qualitative way. The strenght of the pulse, the elasticity, the cadence, etc..
- Tongue. How is it. Cracks, White patches. Pink spots. Etc.
- Hair, nails, etc.
- Body type
- Patient explaining his symptoms
- Emotional/mental issues
- Context
- Doctor intuition
- Temperature and rigidity/lassitude of different areas of the body (where the meridians are), not general temp.


Then you create a diagnosis based in a complex pattern of imbalances in the 5 organ systems of the body, and external pathogens (like tyw posted) damp, wind, etc. Then you try to restore the proper balance and energy flow.

But TCM organs as you ask, are not really the organs as we know in the west. "Spleen" in TCM is not the spleen, but a combination of spleen and some digestive organs. Don't know the fine details. You can find it on the internet.

 

[Makrosky]

Yea. I haven't read many texts. But in the ones I have, Confucianism seems to come out of nowhere--almost like an obligatory hat-tip to authority. It's almost funny when the author changes gears. For example in: Sword of Zen: Master Takuan Writings on Immovable Wisdom. He changes gears and brown-noses the Emperor. And in Tohei's: Discourse on the Inexhaustible Lamp, the shift to acknowledgement of Confucianism again seems off-topic and somewhat forced. Again, in Hakuin's commentary on the Heart Sutra: Zen Words For The Heart, the hat-tip to Confucianism is incoherent and illogical.
I think it is similar to when Peat references Thoreau's natural man distinguished from culture.

Wrt to the article, I have had huge positive effect from Kan Traditionals Calm the Dragon tincture. It is a riff on the Xiao Yao San referenced in the article. Except that it is stupid expensive. I'm going back many yrs though and had horrid nutrition. Gratefully, I found a wonderful D.O.M. and she would say, "no cake; eat bone broth; eat fruit" and give me a dixie cup full of her brew riff on Calm the Dragon. Very powerful tincture for liver stagnation.

You know a lot more than me regarding chinese philosophies then. And yeah, as you, too bad I didn't know all I know now when I did the TCM treatment. It would have been very nice to see it under a Peat prism.

 

[HealthisWealth]

A few things :
- Pulse. Not in a simplistic quantitative way as we do here, but in a very detailed and rich qualitative way. The strenght of the pulse, the elasticity, the cadence, etc..
- Tongue. How is it. Cracks, White patches. Pink spots. Etc.
- Hair, nails, etc.
- Body type
- Patient explaining his symptoms
- Emotional/mental issues
- Context
- Doctor intuition
- Temperature and rigidity/lassitude of different areas of the body (where the meridians are), not general temp.


Then you create a diagnosis based in a complex pattern of imbalances in the 5 organ systems of the body, and external pathogens (like tyw posted) damp, wind, etc. Then you try to restore the proper balance and energy flow.

But TCM organs as you ask, are not really the organs as we know in the west. "Spleen" in TCM is not the spleen, but a combination of spleen and some digestive organs. Don't know the fine details. You can find it on the internet.

Wow i dont know that tcm are these broad. I thought of pulse and tongue diagnosis only.

 

[Makrosky]

Wow i dont know that tcm are these broad. I thought of pulse and tongue diagnosis only.

Really, as tyw posted there's not a single TCM discipline. There are many ways to understand and treat that fall under "TCM".

And now that I think of... damn! We might be hijacking the thread... :-|

 

[HealthisWealth]

Really, as tyw posted there's not a single TCM discipline. There are many ways to understand and treat that fall under "TCM".

I checked the link tyw posted about institute for traditional medicine - California has too much accupunturist compared to other states.

In my country (philippines) its starting to be popular but its still few who knows in depth tcm. The popular ones are old school tcm doctor from china. Im looking for tcm doctor that can express it in western approach.

 

[Makrosky]

I checked the link tyw posted about institute for traditional medicine - California has too much accupunturist compared to other states.

In my country (philippines) its starting to be popular but its still few who knows in depth tcm. The popular ones are old school tcm doctor from china. Im looking for tcm doctor that can express it in western approach.

I think the webpage tyw posted is really worth exploring if you are interested in TCM. There are probably hundreds of other equally interesting ones but that one looks interesting. It is very well positioned in google, so it might seem more legit that it actually is. But yeah, it's good.

I'm not sure what are you looking for exactly.

 

[HealthisWealth]

@Makrosky

Im looking for a tcm doctor who are both knowledgeable in both eastern and western approach for better explanation if i go for chekups. The old school tcm doctors i went to just feel pulse and check tongue write prescription of herbs - its all over in less than 5 minutes.

 

[Makrosky]

@Makrosky

Im looking for a tcm doctor who are both knowledgeable in both eastern and western approach for better explanation if i go for chekups. The old school tcm doctors i went to just feel pulse and check tongue write prescription of herbs - its all over in less than 5 minutes.

Yeah I get you now. I don't know if what you're looking for is possible, but yes, it would be an interesting synergistical approach. It would be wonderful to get the best of both worlds.

They know in less than 5 minutes because there's more than 1000 years of accumulated empirical knowledge. It's normal. What you have, millions of people have had it before. I think they are not old school doctors though, more like materialistic TCM doctors. Why don't you try it and judge by how your symptoms go ?

 

[Regina]

Yeah I get you now. I don't know if what you're looking for is possible, but yes, it would be an interesting synergistical approach. It would be wonderful to get the best of both worlds.

They know in less than 5 minutes because there's more than 1000 years of accumulated empirical knowledge. It's normal. What you have, millions of people have had it before. I think they are not old school doctors though, more like materialistic TCM doctors. Why don't you try it and judge by how your symptoms go ?

One caution I have is, while Calm the Dragon tincture was very powerful for liver stagnation, these herbs can plunder. Bupleurum is particularly strong. I think it is crazy to go around taking Xiao Yao San on any kind of daily basis.

But for injuries, I think one can't beat TCM.