In Defense of Starch - TCM and eating many cold/damp foods (fruit/milk) seems to be anti-metabolic ?

[JamesGatz]

I'm sure many on the forum are familiar with TCM and it's view on the Spleen and Stomach eating nothing but cold/damp foods - I will leave a short description here for those unfamiliar :

"In dampness and phlegm, it is important to nourish the Spleen, which means that the consumption of raw, cold and processed sugary or fatty foods need to be limited to aid the spleen's essential digestive function."

I believe this is important - when I had first started RP - I was drinking plenty milk and eating ice cream and honey while avoiding starch consistently and felt horrendous and had very low androgens - my sex drive was completely shot - interestingly enough I would have an intense pain in my spleen area while doing this - I then later find out that ice cream and honey are extremely damp and then of course ice cream is freezing - I then see this thread :

Honey And Dairy Kill Libido And Ability To Get Erection

Any idea why? Carbs from starch or fruits don't do it. I have to mention that the honey is raw (all honey in Germany is), and I was fairly allergic to pollen honey (clogged nose) so I switched to forest honey(?), which seemed to make the reaction go away, but it still killed my libido. Dairy...

raypeatforum.com

Honey and dairy combined kill the ability to have an erection ? I have noticed the very same thing in me when I combined dairy and honey and the combination of the two is very damp forming and I do think tanks metabolism if you are eating this consistently

I rarely ever see this topic discussed in RP and I do see many people on the forum have trouble having a lifestyle tolerating mainly liquid/damp food (i.e. focusing on mainly only fruit/dairy)

I hear many people say it's a metabolic issue and when the metabolism is high you can eat mainly fruit/dairy with no problem, but personally do not think this is true - when my metabolism is high (good mood, good bowel movements, warm and good energy) I still crave eating hotter/drier foods such as hot rice/bread, some nice meat, etc. when I eat cold/damp foods such as Dairy/OJ etc. - I have always craved keeping a balance

​

People say starch should be avoided for the endotoxic/serotonergic response in the gut but if this is addressed is it really a problem ? I don't think it is - I follow every starchy meal I eat with insoluble fiber (pineapple/gelatin/coffee) to keep endotoxin/serotonin low and to keep everything moving and I don't have a problem with starch - my mood and androgens both feel really great like this


I do seem to have always had a problem if I try to stick to only cold/damp foods - the more milk/cheese/OJ I eat (even if I am eating enough salt) - the more I crave a hot plate of rice, a hot croissant, or a nice hot piece of juicy steak

​

 

[Razvan]

This happens at first when you dont eat starch then the body adapts and it becomes much more lower body fat energetic and androgen driven. Personally starch kills motivation and androgens. Starch makes your gut fuller and filled with bacteria and makes you appear much more bloated(bloating =lower androgen look). Also starch produces a lot of insulin which realeases more tryptophan hydroxilaze so much more serotonin then other carbs. Even Danny Roddy feels like ***t with starch compared to sugar.

 

[JamesGatz]

This happens at first when you dont eat starch then the body adapts and it becomes much more lower body fat energetic and androgen driven. Personally starch kills motivation and androgens. Starch makes your gut fuller and filled with bacteria and makes you appear much more bloated(bloating =lower androgen look). Also starch produces a lot of insulin which realeases more tryptophan hydroxilaze so much more serotonin then other carbs. Even Danny Roddy feels like ***t with starch compared to sugar.

Ah yes so I do agree that starch gives the bloated look - I follow each starch meal with insoluble fiber (pineapple) to keep endotoxin low and to avoid feeling like this- I do notice that Danny seems to eat no starch when I was looking at his YouTube videos on what he eats every day - I was not aware of the tryptophan part that is interesting - for me I do like keeping it balanced - I do like eating a lot of fruit/dairy but if I only stick to that I do get cold and crave something hot/dry - it might've been I didn't give it enough time

 

[LUH 3417]

This kept happening to me whenever I’d drink milk and OJ. I would get spleen pain and allergies. Then I’d go to a TCM doctor, get herbs, feel better.

Ithink the key is being off starch long enough, when I quit gluten for a month and went heavy on milk and juice I stopped responding in such a negative way.

 

[JamesGatz]

This kept happening to me whenever I’d drink milk and OJ. I would get spleen pain and allergies. Then I’d go to a TCM doctor, get herbs, feel better.

Ithink the key is being off starch long enough, when I quit gluten for a month and went heavy on milk and juice I stopped responding in such a negative way.

Ah I see - maybe it is true I didn't give it enough time then - I tried it for a week I think then called it quits

 

[youngsinatra]

I respond best to starch-based, because it‘s just an easier way to get in enough calories to fuel your metabolic needs. I failed on no-starch after a few days, because no matter how much sugar I added or coke I drank, I was still severely undereating. On top of that it never felt pleasurable or healthy to consume so much sugar and I became quickly turned off by sugary tastes. I often had liver pain with so much sugar.

With starch you can also add in lots of salt, which I cannot do with fruits, juices or coke.

Well-cooked starches like potatoes or rice digest perfectly fine for me.

Starches are always the staple carbohydrates for almost all populations.

 

[Razvan]

Ah yes so I do agree that starch gives the bloated look - I follow each starch meal with insoluble fiber (pineapple) to keep endotoxin low and to avoid feeling like this- I do notice that Danny seems to eat no starch when I was looking at his YouTube videos on what he eats every day - I was not aware of the tryptophan part that is interesting - for me I do like keeping it balanced - I do like eating a lot of fruit/dairy but if I only stick to that I do get cold and crave something hot/dry - it might've been I didn't give it enough time

The tryptophan hydroxilaze is very important, when i eat starch, the day becomes shittier and shittier, i want to be static,i don't like to move ,not energetic enough. Ray peat said that starch craving is linked with hypothyroidism. You crave hot meals cause fruit and dairy have much more liquid and you lose salt from so much liquid, after a period long enough of no starch ,things will change and you will not lose so much salt and you will adapt to it. After a long time with no starch, a starch meal will **** you up. For exemple,in the summer, your body temp is much more higher and fruit is much more craved cause it's way hotter outside and this is the most optimal state, thats why living in a cold climate is awful. However i still prefer coke and milk than fruit,cause fruit usually has to much fiber. This clip discusses the topic.


View: https://youtu.be/2PiREw_nr-s

 

[Korven]

I agree with this.

On multiple occasions now I've tried cutting out ALL starch and getting my carbs from milk, fruits and honey for several months at a time. One of the worst symptoms I used to have was feeling poisoned/sick (especially in the morning), which I assumed to be endotoxin-driven, hence why I cut out the starch. My experience with zero starch is that it made me feel a bit better in the short-term, but in the long-term it made my situation way worse; more endotoxin issues, weaker digestion, poor immunity, skin infections, feeling cold, low sex drive, dandruff, and the list goes on. Perhaps because all the cold/damp foods like milk and juice and honey was killing my already weak digestive fire and allowing pathogenic bacteria and fungus to set up shop?

The only problem was that I couldn't go back to eating starches again without feeling really sick. It's taken me AGES to be able to eat some damn rice or oatmeal without feeling like crap, but after a lot of tweaks I can now digest starchy carbs again and I really feel 10000% better than on a zero starch diet. No endotoxin symptoms at all and I wake up feeling normal, not like a truck ran over me a hundred times.

For me I think the main problem was a sluggish gallbladder → no bile acids to detoxify endotoxin and gut dysbiosis.

 

[Apple]

I agree with this.

On multiple occasions now I've tried cutting out ALL starch and getting my carbs from milk, fruits and honey for several months at a time. One of the worst symptoms I used to have was feeling poisoned/sick (especially in the morning), which I assumed to be endotoxin-driven, hence why I cut out the starch. My experience with zero starch is that it made me feel a bit better in the short-term, but in the long-term it made my situation way worse; more endotoxin issues, weaker digestion, poor immunity, skin infections, feeling cold, low sex drive, dandruff, and the list goes on. Perhaps because all the cold/damp foods like milk and juice and honey was killing my already weak digestive fire and allowing pathogenic bacteria and fungus to set up shop?

Same here...
my temperature gets low on these foods ( milk , juice and honey and no starches) and I start thinking it maybe low thyroid and then supplementing thyroid is only a short-term solution.
No wonder Mr Peat got to supplementing thyroid.
Adding fat to starches alleviates the endotoxin issue with starches.

 

[conrad0602]

I would say in my experience that starch is harder on the gut, especially when bacterial overgrowth is present. But getting enough calories without starchy food feels really challenging without adding 4 liters of milk a day on top of meals of cheese, meat, eggs, fruit. Haven't figured a way around it yet ?

 

[LUH 3417]

Ah I see - maybe it is true I didn't give it enough time then - I tried it for a week I think then called it quits

do you eat carrot salad? what is your vitamin d? i think there is a reason ray responds to a lot of emails with the same recommendations despite his obvious creativity and genius: thyroid & vitamin d.

i had the spleen/dampness issues with milk and juice from 2017-2021 going back and forth trying to follow the recs and not feeling very well. i never took vitamin d supplements regularly despite my levels always testing low bottom 20-30s. i also never did the carrot salad every day. i would do it for a few days and then forget.

the same month i cut out gluten (which really i was only getting from well made sourdough bread and occasional organic pasta which i would eat with liver to help me get the liver down), i also made sure to do a carrot salad every single day. additionally, i've been taking 10k vitamin d every day since the summer. i believe ray is so adamant about these things because if you do one of the recommendations alone, lets say milk and juice, without having adequate GI motility or good vitamin D status, you won't get good results. but if you combine everything together, your body will respond better.

 

[aliml]

Combine cold/damp foods with hot/dry spices such as ginger, cinnamon, turmeric, etc.

10 Benefits of Golden (Turmeric) Milk and How to Make It

Golden milk — also known as turmeric milk — is a hot Indian drink made with milk and various spices. Here are 10 science-based benefits of golden milk — and a recipe to make your own.

www.healthline.com

 

[jomamma007]

I agree with this.

On multiple occasions now I've tried cutting out ALL starch and getting my carbs from milk, fruits and honey for several months at a time. One of the worst symptoms I used to have was feeling poisoned/sick (especially in the morning), which I assumed to be endotoxin-driven, hence why I cut out the starch. My experience with zero starch is that it made me feel a bit better in the short-term, but in the long-term it made my situation way worse; more endotoxin issues, weaker digestion, poor immunity, skin infections, feeling cold, low sex drive, dandruff, and the list goes on. Perhaps because all the cold/damp foods like milk and juice and honey was killing my already weak digestive fire and allowing pathogenic bacteria and fungus to set up shop?

The only problem was that I couldn't go back to eating starches again without feeling really sick. It's taken me AGES to be able to eat some damn rice or oatmeal without feeling like crap, but after a lot of tweaks I can now digest starchy carbs again and I really feel 10000% better than on a zero starch diet. No endotoxin symptoms at all and I wake up feeling normal, not like a truck ran over me a hundred times.

For me I think the main problem was a sluggish gallbladder → no bile acids to detoxify endotoxin and gut dysbiosis.

How did you improve the sluggish gallbladder ?

 

[Korven]

How did you improve the sluggish gallbladder ?

Drinking 4 pints of hot water every day and only eating warm, cooked meals.
Applying physical heat to the liver and gallbladder area (e.g with a hot water bottle or heat pack).
Resting after meals.
Avoiding cold food, cold water, drinks or juices.
Avoiding supplements, especially oral fat-solubles.
Taking thyroid might have also played a role.

 

[Lord Cola]

If you drink milk cold, it will lower your temperature until you heat it up with your body heat. You also may need sugar to digest the protein in milk without lowering your blood sugar.

Starchy things like potatos are often salted well, while milk usually isn't salted. Eating nough salt will help increase your metabolic rate.

Fruit that isn't ripe can cause a stress response. Finding ripe fruit can be impossible if you live in places that are too cold and the cultural expectation of fruit is for it to be sour.

 

[DonLore]

Maybe you dont need starch, as you could eat meat in cream sauce, or other similiar foods that are "hot and dry". I also need warm food, especially in winter, but I leave out the starch and I will see if it works or not. But too much liquid is bad I agree

 

[Dr. B]

Drinking 4 pints of hot water every day and only eating warm, cooked meals.
Applying physical heat to the liver and gallbladder area (e.g with a hot water bottle or heat pack).
Resting after meals.
Avoiding cold food, cold water, drinks or juices.
Avoiding supplements, especially oral fat-solubles.
Taking thyroid might have also played a role.

so if you leave milk and OJ sitting out for a couple hours at room temperature, then drink them is that fine since they would heat up a bit

 

[Makrosky]

I'm sure many on the forum are familiar with TCM and it's view on the Spleen and Stomach eating nothing but cold/damp foods - I will leave a short description here for those unfamiliar :

View attachment 30855

"In dampness and phlegm, it is important to nourish the Spleen, which means that the consumption of raw, cold and processed sugary or fatty foods need to be limited to aid the spleen's essential digestive function."

I believe this is important - when I had first started RP - I was drinking plenty milk and eating ice cream and honey while avoiding starch consistently and felt horrendous and had very low androgens - my sex drive was completely shot - interestingly enough I would have an intense pain in my spleen area while doing this - I then later find out that ice cream and honey are extremely damp and then of course ice cream is freezing - I then see this thread :

Honey And Dairy Kill Libido And Ability To Get Erection

Any idea why? Carbs from starch or fruits don't do it. I have to mention that the honey is raw (all honey in Germany is), and I was fairly allergic to pollen honey (clogged nose) so I switched to forest honey(?), which seemed to make the reaction go away, but it still killed my libido. Dairy...

raypeatforum.com

Honey and dairy combined kill the ability to have an erection ? I have noticed the very same thing in me when I combined dairy and honey and the combination of the two is very damp forming and I do think tanks metabolism if you are eating this consistently

View attachment 30856
I rarely ever see this topic discussed in RP and I do see many people on the forum have trouble having a lifestyle tolerating mainly liquid/damp food (i.e. focusing on mainly only fruit/dairy)

I hear many people say it's a metabolic issue and when the metabolism is high you can eat mainly fruit/dairy with no problem, but personally do not think this is true - when my metabolism is high (good mood, good bowel movements, warm and good energy) I still crave eating hotter/drier foods such as hot rice/bread, some nice meat, etc. when I eat cold/damp foods such as Dairy/OJ etc. - I have always craved keeping a balance

View attachment 30857
​

People say starch should be avoided for the endotoxic/serotonergic response in the gut but if this is addressed is it really a problem ? I don't think it is - I follow every starchy meal I eat with insoluble fiber (pineapple/gelatin/coffee) to keep endotoxin/serotonin low and to keep everything moving and I don't have a problem with starch - my mood and androgens both feel really great like this


I do seem to have always had a problem if I try to stick to only cold/damp foods - the more milk/cheese/OJ I eat (even if I am eating enough salt) - the more I crave a hot plate of rice, a hot croissant, or a nice hot piece of juicy steak

​

I agree with you. Basing your diet on liters of orange juice and milk cannot be healthy in the mid-long term. In fact quite the opposite. And basing it on only fruits and milk and gelatin the same. I don't think nowhere in the world nor in history such a "diet" has been done by anyone. There must be a reason for it.

To a lesser degree, vegan, carnivore, and all these cannot be healthy either, although less bad than ingesting liters of OJ and milk per day.

Balance, please.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Do you still get negative reactions from starch even when you’ve achieved an optimal high metabolism, and your temps are always high?

 

[Nomane Euger]

I agree with you. Basing your diet on liters of orange juice and milk cannot be healthy in the mid-long term. In fact quite the opposite. And basing it on only fruits and milk and gelatin the same. I don't think nowhere in the world nor in history such a "diet" has been done by anyone. There must be a reason for it.

To a lesser degree, vegan, carnivore, and all these cannot be healthy either, although less bad than ingesting liters of OJ and milk per day.

Balance, please.

Why can’t it be healthy to drink liters of fruits juices,and/or liter of milks?what is balance,how do you define it?