Is the Ray Peat "diet" a difficult diet?

[stevensmith]

But, I cannot agree with neither Cliff or Steven that Peat hasn't emphasized staying away from starch (at least certain starches) as their main source of carbs.

By saying that Peat hasn't emphasized people staying away from starch as their "main source" of carbs, you are not disagreeing with either of us. We were saying that PUFA is the only thing that he emphasized as something that can be heavily restricted, whereas starches are largely up to the individual. He implied many times that starches CAN be problematic, but that's in context.

 

[ericrlepine]

But, I cannot agree with neither Cliff or Steven that Peat hasn't emphasized staying away from starch (at least certain starches) as their main source of carbs.

By saying that Peat hasn't emphasized people staying away from starch as their "main source" of carbs, you are not disagreeing with either of us. We were saying that PUFA is the only thing that he emphasized as something that can be heavily restricted, whereas starches are largely up to the individual. He implied many times that starches CAN be problematic, but that's in context.

Of course But, you have to admit that, seen in that light, everything is "up the individual then"...

I need to clarify too: I didn't say Peat hadn't emphasized people avoid starches as in fact, I said exactly the opposite... If you feel that a certain "grading system" is required, from "definitely avoid" to "few risks involved" then yes, I will easily concede that PUFAs definitely form one end of the spectrum... That, I believe, we can all agree on. But, that doesn't mean everything else is a go (and I understand that's not what you are implying either)...

Certainly, as you and others have proposed, many (if not most :))of Peat's ideas are context-dependent but, regardless of this fact, content/food composition as a whole must also be considered... Getting away with consuming large amounts of starch doesn't mean it's what's best/healthiest, nor what's ideal all the time or that it will work all of the time for a given individual nor, as we already alluded to, will it give optimal results to all those who choose that route...

 

[cliff]

Seems to me like peat thinks potatoes are fine in any quantity if tolerated. He has said roots/tubers are second best to fruit. I've emailed him on the starch issue and he said its fine if you get 30% fructose/lactose.

Regarding milk with added vitamins based on my experience it should be avoided at all cost imo

 

[j.]

Regarding milk with added vitamins based on my experience it should be avoided at all cost imo

Would you mind sharing what your experience was like?

 

[cliff]

Regarding milk with added vitamins based on my experience it should be avoided at all cost imo

Would you mind sharing what your experience was like?

I experienced severe digestive issues and my brother had similar issues. The carriers used to add the vitamins are similar to carrageenan and have been shown to have negative effects in studies.

 

[ericrlepine]

Thanks Cliff; that 30% number makes sense...

It also helps to get a more precise picture. Assuming the average person's 1500-2000 calories a day, that would mean about 600 calories from lactose/fructose. We know that Peat recommends a minimum of 80-100g of protein a day, which equals 320+ calories from the latter... That leaves anywhere from about 500 to 1000 calories for at least some fats, and the rest in the form of glucose which, inevitably, will come from some of the foods one already consumes (fruit, sucrose, honey, free sucrose and galactose in milk, etc.).

From this, we see how little room is left for starch then...

 

[narouz]

Let's Be Realistic

Just an example day, eating out:

I go to our really nice, big health food store here where I live.
Comparable to Whole Foods tho a bit smaller.
It's supper time.
It's Friday.
I know that on Fridays they usually have "Carne Asada" as a part of their Taco Assembly line thing.

So, I get there.
7:00.
Hoping for some beef and potatoes of some description.

Cruise around, hungrily.
Sadly, today, no beef at all.
Of course no lamb.
Usually it's 40/60 if there will be any beef.
None today, although as I said there was reason to have hope.

No potatoes either.
Well, they had two kinds of delicious Looking potato salad type things,
but both were slathered in "Vegenaise,"
which I have to believe is some kind of PUFA-oil thing.

Great looking, diverse, organic, raw, cooked, meat, non-meat array of foods.

So I circled haplessly
hoping I'd missed something.
Finally I settled for a dish
of white rice with cottage cheese with a few undercooked (in Peat's view) squash.

I contend it is a difficult diet.

I'm on it and have been for over half a year!
Just sayin'....

 

[narouz]

"...fine if you get 30% fructose/lactose."

Seems to me like peat thinks potatoes are fine in any quantity if tolerated. He has said roots/tubers are second best to fruit. I've emailed him on the starch issue and he said its fine if you get 30% fructose/lactose.

Regarding milk with added vitamins based on my experience it should be avoided at all cost imo

Thanks Cliff for this info straight from Peat himself!
I want to be sure I'm interpreting you correctly:
when Peat replied...

he said its fine if you get 30% fructose/lactose.

...did he mean that,
if one gets 30% of one's total daily diet
from from fructose and lactose
that is fine...?

(Or was Peat meaning 30% of one's daily carbohydrates from fructose and lactose...?)

Also Cliff:
I read a lot of information from Peat
that comes from within a context such as the one you describe:
a one-on-one "consultation" or communication,
where Peat is shaping his advice for a specific person
as opposed to making a general statement directed to "most people."

It seems that the advice, unsurprisingly, shifts because of that.

I gather that you have communicated with Peat at least a little in the past.
And that he knows something about you--
your lifestyle, your goals, your issues.

Would you say that the communication above
should be interpreted within that context--
the context, simply, of Peat addressing Cliff's specific concerns...?

I ask because I'm really interested in the "weight-gain/weight-loss" area of PeatDom.
As I've belabored
I'm an old, fat guy
about half a year into Peat eating.
Apparently I have metabolism issues--
that is: my metabolism sucks, ha.

You would seem to be just the opposite
from what little I know of you:
you say you are extremely active with your surfing and skateboarding.
You look quite young in your photos.
And I think Danny (Roddy) mentioned that
you have the opposite problem of me in regard to metabolism:
you have to try to gain a healthy weight.
Have I got that kinduv right?

Thanks again, Cliff, for this unique data!

 

[cliff]

I've never gone into much detail with peat in regards to my lifestyle.

You want 30% of your carbs to be fructose not total calories.

I'm around 185 at 6'2" which i maintain pretty easily, i want to gain a bit more muscle weight. I was very overweight a couple years ago.

 

[narouz]

Dr. Peat's Starch Kraken?

I've never gone into much detail with peat in regards to my lifestyle.

You want 30% of your carbs to be fructose not total calories.

I'm around 185 at 6'2" which i maintain pretty easily, i want to gain a bit more muscle weight. I was very overweight a couple years ago.

Thanks, Cliff!

Okay, well...on the other hand then,
did shifting to a Peat diet help you lose that weight?

The reason I'm interrogating you so about Peat's comments to you--
the ones you've reported here--
is that they would seem to me to stretch the envelope
in a different direction than the one his generalized statements run toward.
I'm talking about the area of starch consumption and weight.

Generally, it would seem to me, Peat's comments on that area
tend to include qualifiers or caveats:
-about starches potentially causing weight gain as opposed to sugars
-about starches needing special "technologies" to render them healthy,
like boiling for over 40 minutes (potatoes), or boiling in lye (white rice)
or treating with lime (masa harina)
-about the fiber in the starches not being ideal and even problematic (endotoxin, etc)

For instance, consider this Peat quote:

"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."--Ray Peat, see http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/4/4/peat-vs-paleo.html

Or, for example, this general statement of Peat's
taken from the Functional Alps site
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/09/30/light-is-right/
(and leading off with an intro from, I guess, Rob Turner:

Here is a word from Ray Peat, PhD on what a metabolism-protective diet entails.
“This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction.” -Ray Peat, PhD

(emphasis mine)

Notice there--typically, I think--how Peat
in generalizing about diet calls for
(especially in regard to metabolism health)
"moderate or low" starch consumption.

Maybe those statements Peat made to you (above) about relative starch/carb ratios
would still be compatible his general statements (just noted)
recommending a "moderate or low" starch intake...?
(I'm kinduv bad with math and percentages, so I haven't worked it through yet. )

Your communications with Peat,
some of which you have been kind enough to share here,
are in other words pretty unique.
They really force me to re-evaluate and re-examine
how I interpret the overall body of Peat's dietary suggestions
with regard to the place and proportion of starches.

You've got great credibility in my book,
but your info and perspective from Peat is a bit of an "outlier,"
and therefore extremely valuable.
I simply don't see/hear Peat "speaking up for starches" (put it that way)
much of anywhere else
the way he does to you.
Maybe you release Dr. Peat's Starch Kraken!

Back to his 30% comment for just a sec:
when you initiated that communication,
did you say anything to Peat along the lines of
"I'm trying to gain some muscle weight" or somesuch?

Thanks again, Cliff.

 

[cliff]

If your trying to lose weight removing starches is a good idea just due to the fact you have to eat them with so much fat, as well as fruit being less insulinogenic.

I assume his recommendation in regards to starch is probably just a generalization for a normal some what healthy person. It all depends on context.

 

[nwo2012]

But, I cannot agree with neither Cliff or Steven that Peat hasn't emphasized staying away from starch (at least certain starches) as their main source of carbs.

By saying that Peat hasn't emphasized people staying away from starch as their "main source" of carbs, you are not disagreeing with either of us. We were saying that PUFA is the only thing that he emphasized as something that can be heavily restricted, whereas starches are largely up to the individual. He implied many times that starches CAN be problematic, but that's in context.

Of course But, you have to admit that, seen in that light, everything is "up the individual then"...

I need to clarify too: I didn't say Peat hadn't emphasized people avoid starches as in fact, I said exactly the opposite... If you feel that a certain "grading system" is required, from "definitely avoid" to "few risks involved" then yes, I will easily concede that PUFAs definitely form one end of the spectrum... That, I believe, we can all agree on. But, that doesn't mean everything else is a go (and I understand that's not what you are implying either)...

Certainly, as you and others have proposed, many (if not most :))of Peat's ideas are context-dependent but, regardless of this fact, content/food composition as a whole must also be considered... Getting away with consuming large amounts of starch doesn't mean it's what's best/healthiest, nor what's ideal all the time or that it will work all of the time for a given individual nor, as we already alluded to, will it give optimal results to all those who choose that route...

RP

If the masa flour doesn't have additives, it's safe for regular use, with fat.

That was in reply to me asking how often tortillas could be eaten. As is said here already, everyone is different. Ive personally found that I need to restrict starches because Im taking in a lot of sugar in the form of OJ, Milk and Papaya, or I tend to gain a bit of belly fat (like my abs visible).

 

[crX]

Re: Let's Be Realistic

Just an example day, eating out:

I go to our really nice, big health food store here where I live.
Comparable to Whole Foods tho a bit smaller.
It's supper time.
It's Friday.
I know that on Fridays they usually have "Carne Asada" as a part of their Taco Assembly line thing.

So, I get there.
7:00.
Hoping for some beef and potatoes of some description.

Cruise around, hungrily.
Sadly, today, no beef at all.
Of course no lamb.
Usually it's 40/60 if there will be any beef.
None today, although as I said there was reason to have hope.

No potatoes either.
Well, they had two kinds of delicious Looking potato salad type things,
but both were slathered in "Vegenaise,"
which I have to believe is some kind of PUFA-oil thing.

Great looking, diverse, organic, raw, cooked, meat, non-meat array of foods.

So I circled haplessly
hoping I'd missed something.
Finally I settled for a dish
of white rice with cottage cheese with a few undercooked (in Peat's view) squash.

I contend it is a difficult diet.

I'm on it and have been for over half a year!
Just sayin'....

I really had to laugh as I read this, as I can totally relate to everything said. After years of frequenting health food stores and believing that PUFA's, soy milk and smoked salmon were health foods, my new knowledge has made it really difficult to find something to eat! About the only healthy food that I can see in my local health food store is some of their (limited) fresh meats, raw milk and coconut oil. I think that for me the difficult thing about the approach is that somehow it is ingrained in my head that one needs to eat a great variety of food, when it seems in fact that one needs an abundance of some core ingredients (protein and sugar) and just enough of some other nutrients. In fact the Peat "approach" seems to be just as much about avoiding things that are harmful as it is getting the good things. I think over time as I learn new things to cook with the good ingredients it will actually be a simpler way of eating than I did in the past.

Just a note on the difficulty of discussing the "Ray Peat Diet" or whatever it is. I've struggled with this myself, and I find that most people just don't understand that this is not a weight loss approach to eating, although it is probably a side effect in the long run. I have in fact gained a little weight, and my only reason for changing my diet was what I learned from his research and philosophy and for the health benefits. Personally, I now don't talk about it as much as I would like to because people think and say things to the effect that "you don't need to be 'on a diet'" and miss the point completely. When I do tell people about it, I usually just tell them that they need to read his research and if it makes sense to them, they might incorporate some of his recommendations. For me, sometimes it's just too difficult to sum up his work in casual conversation, and I come off sounding like some kind of a lunatic for drinking as much milk as I do now :)

 

[narouz]

crX--

It's nice to hear someone else out there shares some of my takes.

After I posted this topic,
I quickly became aware that there was a problem with it:
namely,
what is a Peat diet?
Hard to say if a diet is hard or not
if you can't clearly describe what such a diet is.

But when one tries to approximate the general shape of such a diet,
a surprising amount of resistance is encountered.
Many, possibly most Peatians, seem to enjoy eating a Peat diet,
but do not like knowing what a Peat diet is.
It's kinda strange.

 

[j.]

i think the main reason it's hard for others to conceive of a peat diet is an addiction to grains. others might be resistant because the information might not be presented well, and they might be unconvinced of its potential.

i love the peat diet. it's super easy. as i already said but state it again, all you have to cook is meat and eggs. that's it. then just have a bunch of dairy, fruits, and oj. most things whose taste i really like (chocolate, sugar, condensed milk, eggs, orange juice, salt) are in the diet.

 

[charlie]

It really is a very tasty "diet" in my opinion. Besides the oysters anyways.

 

[narouz]

i think the main reason it's hard for others to conceive of a peat diet is an addiction to grains. others might be resistant because the information might not be presented well, and they might be unconvinced of its potential.

i love the peat diet. it's super easy. as i already said but state it again, all you have to cook is meat and eggs. that's it. then just have a bunch of dairy, fruits, and oj. most things whose taste i really like (chocolate, sugar, condensed milk, eggs, orange juice, salt) are in the diet.

j--
I believe you.
But I would say that, in my experience, you are unusual in your dietary appetites.
Either that, or nearly everybody I run into is unusual!
It is possible that we here on this forum
constitute a self-selecting profile.
In plain language,
those who frequent this forum
probably tend to be people who are okay with eating the foods Peat says are best.

Of course, I don't know the exact nature of your Peat diet.
But based upon the foods you mention...
put it this way:
If I were to ask 50 people I know--friends, acquaintances, co-workers--
if they would like to be on your Peat diet of:
dairy, fruits, OJ, chocolate, sugar, condensed milk, eggs, salt
and you mentioned some meat...
...they would not want to be on that diet.
Indeed, I would guess that about 75% of that group would laugh at the idea
(indicating that the idea of eating such a diet strikes them as preposterous).

Again, it is hard to explore whether or not a diet is difficult
if the diet is not clearly described.

I am on a Peat diet myself and have been for about 2/3's of a year.
I am not trying to say anything against the health merits of the diet.
I am merely arguing that such a diet exists and can be described in general terms.
And that, for most, it will be a very challenging diet.

 

[j.]

I am merely arguing that such a diet exists and can be described in general terms.
And that, for most, it will be a very challenging diet.

don't know, man. two people close to me, i'm close to talking them into the diet. they already are giving up PUFAs, one is willing to give up grains while the other isn't. maybe you're selling your friends the super-precise peat diet, and they find that hard. do you also think they'll react the way you're describing if you tell them about a diet that consists of dairy, fruits, meats, and eggs, plus coffee, chocolate, and coconut oil? that's how i tend to describe it. a move to that diet would be very close to the peat diet.

 

[pete]

If you react to lots of foods, you could come up with a similar diet out of necessity (not so much the milk). One thing that's missing for those eating muscle meats is the gelatin, but in traditional diets it is included. Or should I say "in times past".

 

[j.]

ok, i recall that there was one thing hard about following the peat diet for me: i felt bad after eating even moderate amounts of sugar. so i didn't know what to eat, because i only couldn't eat certain amount of fruit, so i cheated with wheat-containing foods for a while. but 3 months after completely stopping consumption of PUFAs, my body was much better able to process sugar, i.e., i could consume tons of fruits without having palpitations or discomfort, so from then on i was more able to eat closer to the ideal peat diet.