Should we Inject Skepticism Into The Way of Peat?

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narouz

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Re: On Threats Real and Imagined

ttramone said:
Narouz - why do you think you have the right to judge other people's experience? It comes across as quite arrogant to assume that you are somehow seeing the truth and other people are being fools with no insight into their own experience. Not cool. Why don't you challenge Peat's ideas, instead of something you know nothing about: how another person feels about their own life and undertakings.

ttramone, if you look back over the thread
I think you will see I have responded to this repeated charge,
and responded more than once, as I recall.
In the original thread I apologized to 4peats
if she felt I left the impression you describe.
And I believe here in this thread
I specifically referred to you,
saying that I do not challenge your honesty.
So I am not the one
who seemingly needs to hold onto this already-asked-and-answered point
and is who is unable to move beyond it.

Now: if a general current of interpretation or spin
begins to emerge on the forum,
an implicit assumption or an explicit assertion
that a Peat diet is (whatever):
delicious, satisfying, varied, easy, etc...

...in that kind of case I feel is is fair game--indeed important game--
to analyze and evaluate
from a skeptical perspective.
Simply put: I believe it is a good thing, a Peatian thing, to question such interpretations.

Let me illustrate the point this way:
If, say, New Yorker magazine sent a science reporter to this site
and asked for our collective, general thoughts on a Peat diet,
including its relative ease, fun, satisfaction, variety, restrictiveness, etc...

...if that situation really arose,
I would feel the need to disassociate myself from such a general response by the forum.
My prediction would be that I would be embarrassed to lend my name to such a group summary.
I think it would likely be extremely rosy, insular, and inaccurate.
In short, it would be a very unscientific and unskeptical summary.
And this is to say nothing of the discomfort I would experience
when we most likely would claim that there is no Peat diet--
just after we had summarized our experience of eating one. :lol:
 

narouz

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Re: On Threats Real and Imagined

j. said:
narouz said:
The point is: I don't think I've ever even challenged a singleDr. Peat idea here.

Oh My God! You think Peat is infallible and inerrant? You're clueless. Not even the Pope is that.

*insert here a thousand more paragraphs emphasizing in different ways how clueless Narouz is for thinking that Peat is infallible and inerrant*

Weak stuff, j.
Very weak.
You feelin' okay, my friend?
 

narouz

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j.

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Re: "Question...Everything"

narouz said:
"To learn effectively, it's necessary to question the assumptions behind everything."--Ray Peat

Birdie serendipitously posted this in another thread.
I had heard it in an interview recently, but couldn't remember which one.
The fuller quote is here:
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1488

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that to question the character of other people and assume they're dishonest. In case you didn't notice, that's why people feel like you're an ****.
 

kiran

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Re: "Question...Everything"

j. said:
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that to question the character of other people and assume they're dishonest. In case you didn't notice, that's why people feel like you're an ****.

This post deserves many upvotes. :thumbright :thumbleft
 

juanitacarlos

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Re: On Threats Real and Imagined

narouz said:
Let me illustrate the point this way:
If, say, New Yorker magazine sent a science reporter to this site
and asked for our collective, general thoughts on a Peat diet,
including its relative ease, fun, satisfaction, variety, restrictiveness, etc...

...if that situation really arose,
I would feel the need to disassociate myself from such a general response by the forum.
My prediction would be that I would be embarrassed to lend my name to such a group summary.
I think it would likely be extremely rosy, insular, and inaccurate.
In short, it would be a very unscientific and unskeptical summary.
And this is to say nothing of the discomfort I would experience
when we most likely would claim that there is no Peat diet--
just after we had summarized our experience of eating one. :lol:

Oh lord, this is too much. Can you hear yourself narouz??? Seriously. I'm bowing out as this 'discussion' isn't useful or educational or even thought provoking. I shall no longer feed the beast.
 

narouz

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Re: "Question...Everything"

j. said:
narouz said:
"To learn effectively, it's necessary to question the assumptions behind everything."--Ray Peat

Birdie serendipitously posted this in another thread.
I had heard it in an interview recently, but couldn't remember which one.
The fuller quote is here:
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1488

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that to question the character of other people and assume they're dishonest. In case you didn't notice, that's why people feel like you're an ****.

Why, thank you for that mature and civil and non-personal contribution, j.! :)
(I have found that stiff dose of milk, sugar, and gelatin
can often ease feelings of anger and low self-worth.)

As to the "substance" of your remark, such as it is:
You will see that I have responded to this claim several times already, I believe, here in the thread.
The latest repetition and response was here, in case you missed it:
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1469&view=unread#p16666
 

Rayser

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Ray Peat: "Context is everything, and it’s individual and empirical."

j., I don't think narouz is mentally able to understand that he misinterprets Ray Peat. Otherwise he wouldn't constantly rip parts of Ray Peat's sentences out of their context to make them fit his ideas.

I am not sure if it's any use to go on trying to communicate with him.
The man honestly believes he is being persecuted by us.
I hope with all my heart that he never experiences true censorship and true persecution in his life.

He reminds me of a **** who believes the sun comes up because he crows on his dung heap.
Let him keep his dung heap.
 

narouz

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Re: On Threats Real and Imagined

ttramone said:
narouz said:
Let me illustrate the point this way:
If, say, New Yorker magazine sent a science reporter to this site
and asked for our collective, general thoughts on a Peat diet,
including its relative ease, fun, satisfaction, variety, restrictiveness, etc...

...if that situation really arose,
I would feel the need to disassociate myself from such a general response by the forum.
My prediction would be that I would be embarrassed to lend my name to such a group summary.
I think it would likely be extremely rosy, insular, and inaccurate.
In short, it would be a very unscientific and unskeptical summary.
And this is to say nothing of the discomfort I would experience
when we most likely would claim that there is no Peat diet--
just after we had summarized our experience of eating one. :lol:

Oh lord, this is too much. Can you hear yourself narouz??? Seriously. I'm bowing out as this 'discussion' isn't useful or educational or even thought provoking. I shall no longer feed the beast.

Please don't leave, ttramone!
With a mere 8 posters standing watch against
The Forces of Darkness and Doubt
(that would be me and perhaps tobie)
I am quite worried--even given 4peats' valiant return--
that I may indeed somehow
destroy this forum with my infernal skeptical questioning! :shock:
 

narouz

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On Matters Fecal

Rayser said:
He reminds me of a **** who believes the sun comes up because he crows on his dung heap.
Let him keep his dung heap.

Oh that was mean.
First I'm a scowling poopycat; now a rooster on a dung heap.
This is almost too much to bear!
 

narouz

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Re: "Question...Everything"

kiran said:
j. said:
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that to question the character of other people and assume they're dishonest. In case you didn't notice, that's why people feel like you're an ****.

This post deserves many upvotes. :thumbright :thumbleft

Yes...yes...as far as I can see
it certainly does exemplify all the best qualities we look for here at the forum!
I'm sure your display of good judgement here
provides a strong affirmation to Charlie in his decision to ask you to moderate.
Keep up the great work!
With mods like you the quality of this forum is nearly assured!
Have you considered huddling with 4peats should she agree to moderate?
Now that, that would be a dynamic duo of critical judgement:
even-handed, non-emotional, balanced, careful, fair, unbiased, serious-minded...
I know I will say a prayer that such a synergy occurs!!
 

kiran

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Psychedelics

Narouz, have you ever tried taking any psychedelic substances?

I wonder if your mind is getting stuck in the same loop, pretty sure mine used to and probably still does to some extent.
 

narouz

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Re: Psychedelics

kiran said:
Narouz, have you ever tried taking any psychedelic substances?

I wonder if your mind is getting stuck in the same loop, pretty sure mine used to and probably still does to some extent.

Nah...I'm quite aged you see,
and at the moment there is all this poop and dung lying about.
Not a great environment for trippin', at the moment.
But I'm glad you reminded me--
for future reference...you know, when I figure out a way to stop being an ****.

I think a beer or four might be in order though!
 
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4peatssake

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Rayser said:
@ 4peatssake - I loved your last two posts and thought they were both honest and conciliatory. I wish I could have said it that clearly and still kind and I am disappointed that the response is the same sulking, narrow-minded sarcasm j. and I prompted.

Thank you for your kinds words, Rayser. I appreciate that someone recognizes my attempts to foster some good will.
I felt some responsibility for the acrimony since I started the whole thing in the first place, which is why I gave a full explanation to everyone about how and why I became involved.

Not surprisingly, narouz responded to my post exactly as I had anticipated, dripping with sarcasm and calling me a "heroine." Ah well. He seems incapable of making any kind of valid argument.

"Neither irony or sarcasm is argument." Samuel Butler

Rayser said:
Is there any chance you might get back to what the thread was initially about? I would not have posted in one of narouz' threads to confront him. But this one interested me and I was irritated when it once again turned into the familiar lamentation.

Unfortunately, this thread began the exact same way you got involved in this one. How ironic is that? I became irritated when narouz injected his "familiar lamentation" into ttramone's thread on food variety. When the argument began to heat up, I asked Charlie to split the thread and I apologized to trramone for my discourtesy.

I find it interesting too, that you turned around and did the same thing, apologized to me for getting into it with him on this thread, for which there is no need because this thread, sadly, exists only because of my same complaint.

After I requested the thread be split, Charlie moved this part of the discussion (which I jokingly dubbed The Great Skeptic Debate) to its own thread. Truth be told, any who can read and comprehend will see the true origin of the conversation was never born from a desire for an open and honest exploration of "skepticism" and I take full responsibility for taking the bit in my mouth and getting drawn into the fray.

I fired the first shot.

Moving forward, I would suggest we create new threads to discuss Ray's work and allow this thread to a die a quick death. ;) I have nothing more to say here. What is the use?

I love the idea of discussing Ray's other areas of interest and philosophy. Perhaps others here would like to as well. As you have so rightly pointed out, there is so much more to Ray Peat than his dietary advice, even though that is what has brought us all together.
 

kiran

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Re: Psychedelics

I was merely suggesting that psychedelics might help
erase the habits of learned helplessness.

There's always metaphorical "poop and dung lying about", you just have to figure out what is going on.
 

Jenn

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Kiran you bring up an interesting point. Being caught in a loop or excessive repetitiveness is like stimming (self-stimulatory behavior) which is a feature of autism. Autism is associated with excess seratonin and yeasts, usually starting with the parents. A lack of sufficient glucose is a common ailment. When a person has an issue with metabolizing sugars (very common with people who are long term high veggie/cellulose eaters, macrobiotics for example), they are really messed up, as sugar is normally one of the easiest things to process. The road back to good health can be a challenge. Just because a food (or supplement) is "Peat approved" doesn't mean that a person's body knows what to do with it.

So, in the event that that the skeptism comes from a genuine frustration or disappointment in his own personal experience. I hold out to Narouz that patience is in order as the body heals according to it's own agenda. I had someone holding my hand as I started my journey, with specific recommendations tailored specifically to me and my situation. I would probably have given up if my info had only come from reading on the internet. I was not healthy enough to just start taking all the supplements or eat the foods recommended.

If you are just trolling, then you've said your peace and it's time to move on.
 

narouz

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Psychedelics and Mind Control: SOS Gambit Revealed!

Psychedelics and Mind Control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

Early CIA efforts focused on LSD, which later came to dominate many of MKUltra's programs. Technical Services Staff officials understood that LSD distorted a person's sense of reality, and they felt compelled to learn whether it could alter someone's basic loyalties.[31]...
The aim of this was to find drugs which would irresistibly bring out deep confessions or wipe a subject's mind clean and program him or her as "a robot agent".[33]...
However, by 1962, the CIA and the army had developed a series of superhallucinogens such as the highly touted BZ, which was thought to hold greater promise as a mind control weapon.

I must say I am impressed!
The Suppression of Skepticism patrol here has quickly advanced
to a very subtle and technologically advanced level
with the addition of this technique to their Toolkit of Censorship!

But, you see, I exerted my skepticism about kiran's suggested treatment
for his proposed diagnosis of my "mental illness"--something he called "looping."
(Which does not appear, by the way, in the DSM)
And so I did not avail myself of his devilishly clever "treatment": psychedelic drugs.

As you see in the above extract from Wikipedia,
psychedelic drugs have a history of use as mind control agents.

I know you guys are fueled by irrational fears
of imagined forces of darkness, skepticism, and doubt here on the forum
(See a florid manifestation of it back a few pages, here:
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1469&start=80#p16632
A brief quote from that post:
"I truly felt there needed to be another voice to counterbalance an enormous amount of pessimism, negativity and yes, skepticism that sometimes pervades this forum").
But I confess I never thought the SOS patrol would resort to such diabolical methods of mind control! :eek:
It does reveal, though, the intellectual emptiness of your anti-skeptical arguments,
and thus to your quite desperate attempts to shoot the messenger.
In this case, to "shoot" him up with psychedelics! :eek:

Nice try SOS patrol!
But I was not gullible enough to fall for your fiendish gambit! :lol:

-----

On a more serious note:

The real "looping" and "repeating" that needs diagnosis here
are the recycling and echoing
of facile, prideful, insular, romanticized group-think spins
on the ease, desirability, and gratifications of a Peat diet,
none put forth by Peat himself,
as far as I can see,
but rather echoed into existence here on the forum.

The appropriate and Peatian treatment for that disease is skepticism.
 

narouz

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8 Types of Suppressive Techniques

Jenn said:
Kiran you bring up an interesting point. Being caught in a loop or excessive repetitiveness is like stimming (self-stimulatory behavior) which is a feature of autism. Autism is associated with excess seratonin and yeasts, usually starting with the parents. A lack of sufficient glucose is a common ailment. When a person has an issue with metabolizing sugars (very common with people who are long term high veggie/cellulose eaters, macrobiotics for example), they are really messed up, as sugar is normally one of the easiest things to process. The road back to good health can be a challenge. Just because a food (or supplement) is "Peat approved" doesn't mean that a person's body knows what to do with it.

So, in the event that that the skeptism comes from a genuine frustration or disappointment in his own personal experience. I hold out to Narouz that patience is in order as the body heals according to it's own agenda. I had someone holding my hand as I started my journey, with specific recommendations tailored specifically to me and my situation. I would probably have given up if my info had only come from reading on the internet. I was not healthy enough to just start taking all the supplements or eat the foods recommended.

If you are just trolling, then you've said your peace and it's time to move on.

kiran said:
Narouz, have you ever tried taking any psychedelic substances?

I wonder if your mind is getting stuck in the same loop
, pretty sure mine used to and probably still does to some extent.

I think it would be instructive to return to the example of the book (and movie)
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Kesey.

A blurb from Wikipedia, for those who haven't seen or read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo's_Nest_(film)
McMurphy's ward is run by steely, unyielding Nurse Mildred Ratched (Louise Fletcher), who employs subtle humiliation, unpleasant medical treatments and a mind-numbing daily routine to suppress the patients.

The film deals with a mental institution, lead by Nurse Ratched, which
enforces its orthodoxy by labeling the inmates as "mentally ill."

That labeling allows for suppression and control.
Patients are then subjected to a range of supressive and coercive control techniques
ranging from the mundane to mind control drugs all the way to lobotomy--
the fate at the end of the novel of McMurphy, the Nicholson character in the movie.

-------

So let me congratulate kiran, and now Jenn,
of the Suppression of Skepticism patrol,
for the addition of yet another trick in the SOS Censor's Toolkit:
Labeling as Mentally Ill

With that technique, real reasoned debate becomes unnecessary.
A mental disease is invented--
in kiran's case, "looping," in Jenn's "autism,"
and attached to the poster in need of suppression.

So let's step back and summarize
the impressive list of suppressive tools and techniques
we have seen deployed by the Suppression of Skepticism patrol:

1. Shaming as Ungrateful: thousands die everyday for lack of any food! you should be thankful for your Peat diet!

2. Shaming as Negative: shut-up you babywhiner and make the best of it!

3. Fecal-Oriented Name Calling: "poopy," "dungheap," "****"

4. Fear-Mongering/Fomenting of Non-Existent Threats: "I truly felt there needed to be another voice to counterbalance an enormous amount of pessimism, negativity and yes, skepticism that sometimes pervades this forum"

5. Simple Hostility to Skepticism Masquerading as Scholarly Critique: "not important," "not intellectually challenging" '

6. Denial of Reality:
Peat: "It is always good to be mindful of one's thinking."
Rayser: "That...is not Peat."
Peat when asked what one should question: "Everything."
4peats: "Peat is not skeptical."

7. Labeling as "Troll" Those Who Stray from Forum Othodoxy/Consensus:
"If you are just trolling, then you've said your peace and it's time to move on."

8. Labeling as Mentally Ill: "looping," "autism"

-------

Most diet forums exert their collective will through such coercive, suppressive techniques
in order to enforce various orthodoxies and solidarities,
and to cover over, suppress, or eject the feared "other."
So it shouldn't be surprising to me that such a dynamic exists here--
we are Peatians, but we are also human.
I would just hope that, because we are all-about Ray Peat's ideas,
we should see the rather bitter irony of such a dynamic here.
Don't know the guy, personally, of course.
But is impossible to miss in his work
his basic and lifelong hostility to such a dynamic.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSyJgydTsA[/media]
 
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