Is the Ray Peat "diet" a difficult diet?

[Ray-Z]

Under favorable circumstances, Peating may be easy, but it's much less so if some of the following conditions are present.

(1) You have bad food allergies. For example, I am severely allergic to all dairy (yes, I've tried raw milk, goat's milk, cheese, ice cream...); it gives me hives and bad constipation. Danny Roddy's protocol for overcoming milk allergies (lots of salt, sugar, and thyroid) did not fix the problem. I'm also mildly allergic to honey, coffee, chocolate, dates... I can consume these foods at most occasionally. Take away dairy, and Peating becomes more challenging.

(2) You want to lose weight or you have a condition (e.g. IBS) connected with high endotoxin. Under these circumstances, you would probably want to avoid starch. Out go potatoes, rice, and masa harina, some very inexpensive and convenient sources of carbs.

(3) You lack access (at reasonable prices) to high-quality, Peat-friendly fruits, meats, and dairy. I suspect that a lot of students fall into this category, as may people who have to buy all their food from grocery chains.

(4) You are very ill or have just absorbed an awful lot of PUFA and stress in your life. In some of these cases, healing may require a lot of time or experimentation.

I do not mean to be negative or to criticize Ray Peat, who has helped me to an extent I would have considered almost miraculous before I encountered his writing. I do think, however, that if we are interested in spreading Peat's ideas, and if we hear people voicing frustrations about the difficulty of Peating, we would be well-advised to meet their concerns with understanding and patience, as Peat himself would. :2cents

 

[charlie]

I do think, however, that if we are interested in spreading Peat's ideas, and if we hear people voicing frustrations about the difficulty of Peating, we would be well-advised to meet their concerns with understanding and patience, as Peat himself would. :2cents

Agreed.

 

[narouz]

Under favorable circumstances, Peating may be easy, but it's much less so if some of the following conditions are present.

(1) You have bad food allergies. For example, I am severely allergic to all dairy (yes, I've tried raw milk, goat's milk, cheese, ice cream...); it gives me hives and bad constipation. Danny Roddy's protocol for overcoming milk allergies (lots of salt, sugar, and thyroid) did not fix the problem. I'm also mildly allergic to honey, coffee, chocolate, dates... I can consume these foods at most occasionally. Take away dairy, and Peating becomes more challenging.

(2) You want to lose weight or you have a condition (e.g. IBS) connected with high endotoxin. Under these circumstances, you would probably want to avoid starch. Out go potatoes, rice, and masa harina, some very inexpensive and convenient sources of carbs.

(3) You lack access (at reasonable prices) to high-quality, Peat-friendly fruits, meats, and dairy. I suspect that a lot of students fall into this category, as may people who have to buy all their food from grocery chains.

I do not mean to be negative or to criticize Ray Peat, who has helped me to an extent I would have considered almost miraculous before I encountered his writing. I do think, however, that if we are interested in spreading Peat's ideas, and if we hear people voicing frustrations about the difficulty of Peating, we would be well-advised to meet their concerns with understanding and patience, as Peat himself would. :2cents

Ray-Z,
Just wanted to respond to your concluding remarks, with which I agree.

I think there is a tendency in life to minimize dissonance within our belief systems.
If I'm eating a diet which I believe is the best for my health,
but
restricts me from eating foods I find delicious and satisfying and varied,
there is an impulse to tamp down that dissonance by trying to persuade myself
that the diet is indeed delicious and satisfying and varied.
I mean: who proceeds eagerly into a diet that is not delicious and satisfying and varied?

(Well, actually, there are such people.
I have some friends, a married couple, whom I kid,
because they admit that if they could just Inject their food
and forego the bother of fixing and eating,
they would be very happy.)

Now, I am not charging those who Love their Peat diet with bad faith.
I do believe that some people really do find a Peat diet delicious and satisfying and varied,
and those people might even continue eating a Peat diet
even if it were found to be, well, let's say sortuv neutral in terms of health benefits--
simply because they love fruit and milk and cheese and gelatin and orange juice So much
and find those foods to be So completely satisfying.
I truly believe there are such people,
some here on our board!
(Of course they would be, wouldn't they? Self-selection.)

That said, I do think the tendency to tamp down dissonance does exist.
It is a kind of internal "spin" whereby
we try to convince ourselves that the diet we are eating for health/spiritual reasons
actually turns out to be the diet we most love in terms of pleasure.
Hunh! Isn't that a serendipitous coincidence!
We have the most healthy diet AND the most delicious diet!
All is right in our world:
no dissonance.
We stride forth into the world with great pride and certainty and self-satisfaction!

And, on our own board, we can echo our Peat pings,
reassuring each other and collectively exorcising dissonance!

Or:
We can speak the truth of our dietary experiences
without trying to nullify dietary dissonance.
Again, I am not charging anybody with lying about how much they love their Peat diet.
But I am arguing that many have the internal spin tendency
which can subconsciously influence our evaluations.

Of course, my experience with my Peat diet is one of strong dissonance.
If I could eat anything I wanted without regard to health--only to pleasure--
I would eat pizza, chicken wings especially the skin, salads slathered in olive oil,
bacon, pecans, pork, cornbread baked in an iron skillet heavily coated with bacon grease,
mayonaisse made with peanut oil, fried chicken with wheat flour breading
fried in peanut oil, potatoes and especially the skin precoated with peanut oil, salmon, broccoli,
cauliflower, brussel sprouts, pistachios, peanuts, peanut butter, whole wheat bread, beans, peas,
etc etc etc etc....

But I don't,
because I believe, rationally,
that a Peat diet is the best diet for my health, creativity, sexuality, intellect, longevity, mood, etc.

I do not try to hide the dissonance from myself.
Nor from you guys.

Also, rationally, and from my personal experience,
I know that the overwhelming majority of people whom I know or am acquainted with
would not touch a Peat diet with a ten-foot pole.
Leave aside considerations of health:
most people want to eat what Tastes best to them.
And most people do not think milk, OJ, gelatin, bone broth, etc,
are what taste best.
Don't take my word for it:
ask the people you run into how they imagine they would enjoy a Peat diet.

That is something about which I am pretty damn sure.
And (to return to something adjacent to Ray-Z's point)
I think we do ourselves as Peatians a disservice not to recognize that:
most people would run screaming from a Ray Peat diet based upon food pleasure and satisfaction.

If you go over to other, sometimes excellent Peat sites,
there is one facet I stumble over with at least one (which I will not name).
The site's creator never grants that a Peat diet will be difficult for many.
(Well, he never grants that there is even a Peat diet!)
On the contrary, he says that a Peat diet is delicious and satisfying
and easy and etc etc.
I always respond to that by suspecting that he is a little bit in La-La Land.
It undermines somewhat, for me, the other great aspects of his site
and his lucid Peat insights and interpretations.
Why? Because it simply makes me wonder if he's dealing with the truth.
Personally, I would find him even more compelling than I now do
if he would say something like:
"You know, the truth is most people will find this diet restrictive and difficult."

Have you heard the oft-quoted remarks from the movie critic Pauline Kael
after she learned that Richard Nixon had been elected?
Here is a blurb from Wikipedia recounting it:

"Kael has often been quoted as having said, in the wake of Richard Nixon's landslide victory in the 1972 presidential election that she "couldn't believe Nixon had won", since no one she knew had voted for him.[45] The quote is sometimes cited by conservatives (such as Bernard Goldberg, in his book Bias), as an example of cluelessness and insularity among the liberal elite....The New York Times quoted her as saying, "I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don't know. They're outside my ken. But sometimes when I'm in a theater I can feel them."[49]

My point regarding Kael is that, like Kael, we Peatians run the risk of finding ourselves
shocked at the dietary tastes of other people in the world
if we only hang out with other Peatians and believe that
the views of our little Peatian universe are similar to those of the larger world.

Again, I am not commenting here upon the health values of a Peat diet.
Obviously, having been on such a diet for about 3/4 of a year,
I am largely convinced that a Peat diet holds great possible rewards in terms of health.
I am merely commenting upon whether a Peat diet will be difficult and restrictive for most.

Of course this all begs the question:
what Is a Peat diet?
We will mystify things impossibly here if we say,
as many like to,
that "there is no Peat diet."

 

[charlie]

Ok, well I am not like most people and I can without a doubt say I LOVE this diet. Milk is my favorite thing, since being a kid, and orange juice, fresh squeezed, I mean really, what is better? Would I love to have some cornbread to go with that milk. NO, because I have learned that its not good for you and I simply do not want it. Wow, how hard was that? That being said, yes, for MOST people, it would be restrictive. But when it comes to health, I will do what it takes, and if that means drowning myself in milk and orange juice, so be it.

 

[narouz]

"Would I love to have some cornbread to go with that milk. NO..."

Charlie, you are...Wrong!

 

[charlie]

Yeh Yeh I know I know, going against the grain. Grain, HA, get it?!?!?!

Screw the cornbread, I want to be healthy. I guess when you have been sick all your life like I have, you are just ready to do whatever it takes and not complain about it and be grateful.

 

[j.]

narouz, just go ahead and have a pizza made with coconut oil and potato flour.

the justification i heard from peat for avoiding starch is that you might have the wrong kind of bacteria, but if you don't have that kind of bacteria, maybe you can have it without a problem.

 

[narouz]

Yeh Yeh I know I know, going against the grain. Grain, HA, get it?!?!?!

Screw the cornbread, I want to be healthy. I guess when you have been sick all your life like I have, you are just ready to do whatever it takes and not complain about it and be grateful.

You know, actually, now that I think of it, you're right:
With that cheesy, oniony cornbread (no sugar--the savory sort),
browned and crusted slightly on it's bacon grease saturated bottom,
you would Want
some chili with kidney or perhaps pinto or great northern beans and beef and a little pork sausage.
And a nice crisp salad
of green leaf lettuce, tomato, cucumber, bacon bits,
dressed heavily with olive oil and balsamic vinegar.

 

[narouz]

narouz, just go ahead and have a pizza made with coconut oil and potato flour.

the justification i heard from peat for avoiding starch is that you might have the wrong kind of bacteria, but if you don't have that kind of bacteria, maybe you can have it without a problem.

No, no...I'll just take my bowl of bone broth
and my bag of sugar and shuffle along to my cell now,
where I'll irradiate myself into submission with
my battery of 10x250 watt heatbulbs...
don't worry about me...
I'll be fine...

 

[charlie]

You know, actually, now that I think of it, you're right:
With that cheesy, oniony cornbread (no sugar--the savory sort),
browned and crusted slightly on it's bacon grease saturated bottom,
you would Want
some chili with kidney or perhaps pinto or great northern beans and beef and a little pork sausage.
And a nice crisp salad
of green leaf lettuce, tomato, cucumber, bacon bits,
dressed heavily with olive oil and balsamic vinegar.

Hitting below the belt I see.

 

[charlie]

narouz, just go ahead and have a pizza made with coconut oil and potato flour.

the justification i heard from peat for avoiding starch is that you might have the wrong kind of bacteria, but if you don't have that kind of bacteria, maybe you can have it without a problem.

No, no...I'll just take my bowl of bone broth
and my bag of sugar and shuffle along to my cell now,
where I'll irradiate myself into submission with
my battery of 10x250 watt heatbulbs...
don't worry about me...
I'll be fine...

Drama Queen overload!

 

[Ray-Z]

I think there is a tendency in life to minimize dissonance within our belief systems.
If I'm eating a diet which I believe is the best for my health,
but
restricts me from eating foods I find delicious and satisfying and varied,
there is an impulse to tamp down that dissonance by trying to persuade myself
that the diet is indeed delicious and satisfying and varied.
I mean: who proceeds eagerly into a diet that is not delicious and satisfying and varied?

(Well, actually, there are such people.
I have some friends, a married couple, whom I kid,
because they admit that if they could just Inject their food
and forego the bother of fixing and eating,
they would be very happy.)

Now, I am not charging those who Love their Peat diet with bad faith.
I do believe that some people really do find a Peat diet delicious and satisfying and varied,
and those people might even continue eating a Peat diet
even if it were found to be, well, let's say sortuv neutral in terms of health benefits--
simply because they love fruit and milk and cheese and gelatin and orange juice So much
and find those foods to be So completely satisfying.
I truly believe there are such people,
some here on our board!
(Of course they would be, wouldn't they? Self-selection.)

That said, I do think the tendency to tamp down dissonance does exist.
It is a kind of internal "spin" whereby
we try to convince ourselves that the diet we are eating for health/spiritual reasons
actually turns out to be the diet we most love in terms of pleasure.
Hunh! Isn't that a serendipitous coincidence!
We have the most healthy diet AND the most delicious diet!
All is right in our world:
no dissonance.
We stride forth into the world with great pride and certainty and self-satisfaction!

...

Well done, Narouz -- even that evil paragraph of unPeat food porn.

I agree with most of what you've written about dissonance. I would just distinguish suppressing or misstating perceptions of a diet (your topic) from trying to be at peace with a diet, however imperfectly it satisfies the palate.

An example...Many years ago, I ate a bacon pizza so good I can almost taste it today. [Food porn deleted.] It may be, as you suggest, unhelpful for me to deny that I miss bacon pizza or to assert that I'm perfectly happy with my pizza-free diet in this best of all possible worlds. It may also be unhelpful, I submit, to obsess over bacon pizza, to make monthly pilgrimages to the restaurant where I ate it, to extol its virtues in song and verse, etc., etc. One can be honest about the flaws of one's diet (as you counseled), and yet teach one's self not to worry so much about those flaws...

 

[j.]

ok guys, i'm going to tell you why you have cognitive dissonance and i don't. to stop liking wheat flour you have to deprogram your brain. the key feature of wheat flour that allowed me to get my brain to not want it anymore is that if i didn't eat wheat flour for a while, say 3 months, and then ate it again, i didn't like the taste and had some physical discomfort after i ate it. so i would go a month without wheat flour, then desire it because i remembered it tasted good, so i ate something with it and it didn't taste as good as i remembered it. plus, i felt bad physically after eating. then i did that about 10 times. i stopped eating wheat flour for some time, ate it again, and every single time it tasted worse. after a while i stopped liking it completely. so the desire is gone. i might want it in a day where i didn't eat anything and am hungry and somebody in my family is having something with wheat flour in front of me, but other than that, i don't even think about it.

 

[Ray-Z]

ok guys, i'm going to tell you why you have consonant dissonance and i don't. to stop liking wheat flour you have to deprogram your brain. the key feature of wheat flour that allowed me to get my brain to not want it anymore is that if i didn't eat wheat flour for a while, say 3 months, and then ate it again, i didn't like the taste and had some physical discomfort after i ate it. so i would go a month without wheat flour, then desire it because i remembered it tasted good, so i ate something with it and it didn't taste as good as i remembered it. plus, i felt bad physically after eating. then i did that about 10 times. i stopped eating wheat flour for some time, ate it again, and every single time it tasted worse. after a while i stopped liking it completely. so the desire is gone. i might want it in a day where i didn't eat anything and am hungry and somebody in my family is having something with wheat flour in front of me, but other than that, i don't even think about it.

Actually, wheat reminds me a bit of cardboard or some sort of non-food industrial filler. I'm not a fan of it and I rarely think about it. I was just reaching for an example of an unPeat food that I remember enjoying. Your observations are interesting, though.

 

[narouz]

ok guys, i'm going to tell you why you have consonant dissonance and i don't. to stop liking wheat flour you have to deprogram your brain. the key feature of wheat flour that allowed me to get my brain to not want it anymore is that if i didn't eat wheat flour for a while, say 3 months, and then ate it again, i didn't like the taste and had some physical discomfort after i ate it. so i would go a month without wheat flour, then desire it because i remembered it tasted good, so i ate something with it and it didn't taste as good as i remembered it. plus, i felt bad physically after eating. then i did that about 10 times. i stopped eating wheat flour for some time, ate it again, and every single time it tasted worse. after a while i stopped liking it completely. so the desire is gone. i might want it in a day where i didn't eat anything and am hungry and somebody in my family is having something with wheat flour in front of me, but other than that, i don't even think about it.

Actually, wheat reminds me a bit of cardboard or some sort of non-food industrial filler. I'm not a fan of it and I rarely think about it. I was just reaching for an example of an unPeat food that I remember enjoying. Your observations are interesting, though.

You know, I was in a restaurant the other day that had some really authentic, well-made bagels.
I sure did love me some bagels back in the (non-Peat) day!
With butter and cream cheese and (PUFA-filled) lox....

 

[narouz]

Some thoughts:

We are under no obligation to try to "sell" a Peat diet as delicious, tasty, varied, fun, etc.
Peat never tries to pitch it like that.
He just believes it is the best diet for health, longevity, quality of life, mood, intellect, hormones, etc.
So why do many want to present a Peat diet as The Most Delicious Diet Ever?
Possible explanations:

1. The tendency to eradicate internal dissonance is one explanation I've put forth.
Who wants to hold two discordant beliefs in one's brain at the same time:
a) this is a wonderful diet for health
but
b) this diet prevents me from eating a lot of foods I Feel are delicious and satisfying.
Voila!: just tell yourself and others that a Peat diet is the ultimate in deliciosity! Dissonance banished!
We have the best of all worlds!

2. Misplaced Peat allegiance.
Many here have had multiple private Peat consultations
and have understandable affection and loyalty for him.
Quite a few believe he "saved their life,"
or that he is an amazing humanitarian--giving, caring, sacrificing, etc.
Many, like myself, are very excited and thankful to Peat
for creating a compelling and coherent and unique
explanation of how to eat (and more).
So there is a lot of understandable gratitude and loyalty and love for Dr. Peat,
especially on a board like this.
Therefore, many feel obligated to defend Dr. Peat against any perceived attacks.
Many perceive anyone saying Dr. Peat's diet is difficult and restrictive
as an attack on Dr. Peat.
But where does Peat ever argue that his diet is the most delicious and satisfying?

3. Misdirected gratitude.
This is a slightly different wrinkle on #2, on allegiance.
Over on Danny Roddy's site a long time ago
I posted about my struggles with gaining weight on a Peat diet.
A very smart, Peatian practitioner over there called Zachariah
sort of chided me for even worrying about such a petty thing (weight gain).
He sort of upbraided me and said I should just be overwhelmed with gratitude
for Peat and for all the more important benefits of Peat's diet.
Actually, I kind of agreed with him,
because body image is Not the most important thing in life.
Just as eating the most delicious food possible is Not the most important thing.
On the other hand,
I don't consider it Stupid or Shameful or Petty
to Want to have an attractive body
or to be honest about unfulfilled desires--appetite--arising when on a Peat diet.
I think appetite, its satisfaction or longing, is a significant phenomenon not to be ignored.
But there is often, within PeatDom, a pressure
not to complain--
a pressure to express only Gratitude for Dr. Peat and all he has given us
(a "gift" which I sincerely doubt Peat even wants, by the way).
You will, I trust,
see some potential dangers in going down such a road.
It is a road down which to travel we will be pressured to abandon our Skepticism.
To become Believers.
To censor Criticism.

I feel a lot of gratitude for Peat.
But I don't think that means I have to become unskeptical
or censor dissonant viewpoints within myself.
I think it's important to be honest with oneself,
even about subjects like body image and appetite.

 

[j.]

So why do many want to present a Peat diet as The Most Delicious Diet Ever?

All I can say is that I liked chocolate, oj, sugary foods, and milk a lot since I was a child. Meats were always part of my diet as well. There is one little thing called dulce de leche that can be part of a Peat diet, since it basically is milk, glucose, and sodium bicarbonate. That's one of the foods that brings the most happiness from my point of view. Maybe you should try it from amazon. But I ate it since childhood, so maybe it won't work for you.

And mashed potatoes are freaking delicious. I don't eat them now due to gut issues, but even if you don't consider it part of the optimal Peat diet, I don't think "cheating" with it would make a big difference in health, unless one's gut isn't working well, which might be temporary because the thyroid is still getting fixed.

 

[narouz]

Addendum to my last post:

I do think that for some a Peat diet will be The Most Delicious and Satisfying Diet Ever.
So I don't want those lucky people to feel that I am accusing them of lying.

But I do think that those people compose a pretty rare category.
I believe that for the overwhelming majority of people
the diet will be a challenge.
They will experience it as restrictive and difficult.
I base this upon my own experience
and upon my knowledge of other people--
what they enjoy eating.

 

[j.]

narouz, do you like sweets in general? Have you tried dulce de leche (bought from a store, a good one)?

 

[narouz]

So why do many want to present a Peat diet as The Most Delicious Diet Ever?

All I can say is that I liked chocolate, oj, sugary foods, and milk a lot since I was a child. Meats were always part of my diet as well. There is one little thing called dulce de leche that can be part of a Peat diet, since it basically is milk, glucose, and sodium bicarbonate. That's one of the foods that brings the most happiness from my point of view. Maybe you should try it from amazon. But I ate it since childhood, so maybe it won't work for you.

And mashed potatoes are freaking delicious. I don't eat them now due to gut issues, but even if you don't consider it part of the optimal Peat diet, I don't think "cheating" with it would make a big difference in health, unless one's gut isn't working well, which might be temporary because the thyroid is still getting fixed.

j.--
You are one of those lucky few I just referred to in my last post.
You belong to a small (I believe) group of people
for whom a Peat diet is The Most Delicious of All Possible Diets.

You emphasize chocolate and sweets.
While that is one highly restricted category of foods on perhaps most other diets,
and therefore one really fun and delicious area to exploit on Peating...
...for most by far, I believe, it will not satisfy as a backbone of a diet.

You mention mashed potatoes in another post.
Yes, I agree!
Alas--and it seems you agree--
I don't think mashed potatoes are really a good food,
in terms of their constituting a big part of a Peat diet.
1. They are filled with starch and fiber
2. Usually people want/need to add a lot of yummy butter to them
(and Peat even says you Should to mitigate that starch and fiber),
and so they end up being quite fattening.
And starch, Peat writes, increases appetite and accelerates fat synthesis.
Here's another thing: unless specially treated (like juicing them and getting the extract/soup),
they are not high bang-for-the-buck protein,
and not really a great source of carbs either.
So if you eat a lot of them,
and potatoes and white rice and masa harina constitute a big part of your diet...
you will be filled up with low-quality stuff,
at the expense of what one should be eating on a healthy Peat diet.
So...I consider a (supposed) Peat diet
with the "Peat preferred" starches at the center
to be kinduv a perversion of a healthy Peat diet.

I wish I didn't!
I love mashed potatoes with butter and sour cream,
as I love white rice with lots of butter!