• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

The Ray Peat Mostly Liquid Diet?

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
nwo2012 said:
Short answer, probably eat them more for taste and variety. And convenience when on the go (pre-made tortillas are portable easily, no refridgeration necessary). I dont know but my interpretation of RP's writings on 'safe' starches is that they will not cause adverse effects when used/cooked correctly. Maybe it is beneficial to keep some glucose in the diet, but I really cant say with any certainty. Can anyone?

This kind of mirrors my take.
Aside from the Ray Peat Protein Potato Soup,
there doesn't seem to be significant nutritional value
in consuming the preferred Peat starches.
Especially compared to fruits.

But--and this goes to my contention that a rigorous Peat diet
will be for most people a very difficult diet--
the truth is
that on such a Peat diet,
most people are going to be absolutely Dying
for something to
EAT!
Not DRINK,
but
Eat.

Something to provide some variety,
some relief from what for many will be a largely liquid diet.
Something to eat that is crunchy.
Something that feels like FOOD
in the old-fashioned sense
(as opposed to salted and sugared milk and OJ).

In short,
something sensually satisfying
and something that tastes really good.
Something solid.
Yes, and something to provide some variety.

That's really where I'm at with the starches and Peat.
They don't seem, to me, necessary in terms of nutrients.
From a Peatian perspective
other foods are superior sources of protein and carbs.
Aside from the RPPPS,
the Peat preferred starches might even be said to be
"nutritional subtractants"
--what with the possibility of remaining starch and I guess the certainty of fiber.

Please get me straight here:
I'm not demeaning those who want to eat some starches.
I completely understand the desire and the craving for them;
I desire and crave them myself!

But I just don't see how they can be viewed
as truly desirable or optimal foods
within a rigorous or strict Peat framework.
 
J

j.

Guest
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

narouz, if you want to have something solid, i think you can have beef liver, tongue, brain, shrimp, oysters, shellfish, other meats, and boiled eggs.
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

j. said:
narouz, if you want to have something solid, i think you can have beef liver, tongue, brain, shrimp, oysters, shellfish, other meats, and boiled eggs.

Funny starches???
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

But j. has a point: I don't think he meant to say that these animal products or meats contained starches but if you talk about the need to have something to 'bite' and 'crunch' --- there you go.

I have been on the Ray Peat diet for more than three years and never felt it was a 'liquid' diet just because I don't eat noodles and bread. I eat meat and potatoes, sometimes pumpkin and tomatoes (without seed), from time to time lobster or chicken or lamb broth or grilled veal liver or thymus gland. I eat fish (the ones with nearly no fat) and seefood. I honestly can't think of something I am 'craving' because I am not 'allowed' to eat it. If you want something crunchy you can make potato chips using coconut oil or eat corn flakes without additives if you absolutely feel you have to. I like to eat cheesecake every now and then (Ray Peat's recipe) and ice cream (Ray Peats recipe), the potato salad is made with mayonnaise (yes, Ray Peat's recipe) -- all things I would never have allowed myself to eat on the diets I tried before.

Is there really a general feeling of 'abstinence' when it comes to living on a diet according to Ray Peats work?

I think one should never forget that he doesn't give anybody rules. He talks about the complex ways in which the environment influences us and we influence the environment. You will not die from eating noodles with corn oil once in a while. But you would be healthier without these foods in the long run. I always think of it as knowledge that helps me discover the potential of my mind and body. But if I really feel a craving for anything (can't think of it right now) I will eat or drink it. I know the risks and the downsides and the optimum path and I think that's the important part.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,296
Location
USA
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

Peatarian, being that you have done this for more then 3 years. I am hoping one day you will post in the testimonials about your progress because I am very curious about the results you are getting. Especially being, that you really understand his work and apply it well.
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

peatarian said:
But j. has a point: I don't think he meant to say that these animal products or meats contained starches but if you talk about the need to have something to 'bite' and 'crunch' --- there you go.

I have been on the Ray Peat diet for more than three years and never felt it was a 'liquid' diet just because I don't eat noodles and bread. I eat meat and potatoes, sometimes pumpkin and tomatoes (without seed), from time to time lobster or chicken or lamb broth or grilled veal liver or thymus gland. I eat fish (the ones with nearly no fat) and seefood. I honestly can't think of something I am 'craving' because I am not 'allowed' to eat it. If you want something crunchy you can make potato chips using coconut oil or eat corn flakes without additives if you absolutely feel you have to. I like to eat cheesecake every now and then (Ray Peat's recipe) and ice cream (Ray Peats recipe), the potato salad is made with mayonnaise (yes, Ray Peat's recipe) -- all things I would never have allowed myself to eat on the diets I tried before.

Is there really a general feeling of 'abstinence' when it comes to living on a diet according to Ray Peats work?

I think one should never forget that he doesn't give anybody rules. He talks about the complex ways in which the environment influences us and we influence the environment. You will not die from eating noodles with corn oil once in a while. But you would be healthier without these foods in the long run. I always think of it as knowledge that helps me discover the potential of my mind and body. But if I really feel a craving for anything (can't think of it right now) I will eat or drink it. I know the risks and the downsides and the optimum path and I think that's the important part.


Agree 100%. Ive never felt restricted staying within the guidelines, and certainly dont eat a liquid diet.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

j. said:
narouz, if you want to have something solid, i think you can have beef liver, tongue, brain, shrimp, oysters, shellfish, other meats, and boiled eggs.

Quite right, j.
But let's look at what you say carefully:
According to what you have heard/read Dr. Peat say,
what would you estimate to be the amounts
--of those foods you note--
that Peat would recommend for a diet?

Let's take liver:
he recommends eating a fairly small amount of it
once every week or two.

Tongue and other meats:
Peat doesn't really recommend eating much muscle meat at all
as far as I can understand.
In fact he say it is "anti-metabolic."

Eggs:
Peat says he limits himself to about one every other day
due to the anti-metabolic effects.

Shrimp, oysters, shellfish:
yes, Peat recommends these,
but for there nutrients--not their protein or carbs, really.
In other words, again,
Peat does not recommend eating these in amounts other than peripheral.

Brain:
hmmm...got me there.

In short,
if one compiles a list of all the things Peat says humans could eat,
with no regard to
how much or how often...

...I think that provides a huge enticement
to distort what Peat recommends.
 
J

j.

Guest
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

that's a great point narouz. some foods should be limited, like liver, but i personally don't limit myself on shrimps. i sometimes have it three times in a week. maybe there are solid foods one can eat a lot with no problems (i'm not even sure shrimp fits in that category, i happen to eat it a lot but i don't know if that's right).

so to have at least a bit of solid food each day of the week one could do:
1. liver
2. egg
3. shrimp
4. egg
5. oysters
6. egg
7.

i wonder what other good meats could fill 7 days. the way it looks now, there isn't a lot of solid food.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

peatarian said:
I have been on the Ray Peat diet for more than three years and never felt it was a 'liquid' diet just because I don't eat noodles and bread. I eat meat and potatoes, sometimes pumpkin and tomatoes (without seed), from time to time lobster or chicken or lamb broth or grilled veal liver or thymus gland. I eat fish (the ones with nearly no fat) and seefood.

peatarian-
I've highlighted the items you include on your Peat diet:

-meat
-potatoes
-pumpkin
-tomatoes
-lobster, chicken, lamb broth
-veal liver
-thymus gland
-fish (non-fatty)
-seafood

Analytically, just taking it apart, item by item:

-meat: as far as I can understand, Peat says muscle meats should not be
anything more than a peripheral food.
Says the protein is not good--anti-metabolic.

-tomatoes: hmmm. Well, wouldn't help me with my cravings for "solid" food too much,
in any case.
I think Peat has said tomatoes are at least problematic.
Certainly not something he recommends as an optimal food.

-lobster, chicken, lamb broth: I guess Peat would say these are okay,
although lamb bone broth is the only thing I can really say he recommends.

-potatoes: Peat praises the potato.
Even so it is important to note that he goes to great lengths "technologically"
to render it "safe":
ideally he centrifuges it in a juicer to get rid of the substantial starch and fiber,
and he cooks it for over 40 minutes to reduce (to some degree) the harmful starch.
And he says to eat it with butter to further reduce the harmful starch.
So, with those qualifications,
which many like to forget,
I would say that, yes, this is a Peat recommended food
.
Even so...I'm not sure that he would rank it very highly
compared to his other, much more clearly recommended foods.

pumpkin: lots of fiber, starch, and carotene.
I don't think Peat would recommend.

veal liver: yes, Peat recommends, but in small amounts,
like a small amount once every week or two.

thymus gland: I guess Peat would recommend in amounts/frequency like liver, above.

fish: Peat really narrows it down here to a few warm water varieties,
and even then would seem to relegate it to a place
under muscle meats

in terms of amounts and frequency he would recommend eating.

seafood: yes, Peat recommends some occasional shellfish
for nutrients--not as a big protein source.
So again, a peripheral part of the diet.

So, to my mind,
and in my interpretation of Peat's recommended foods,
or optimal foods...

...I don't think including those foods noted above
into an "Optimal Peat Diet"
would be a good answer, for me.
Because I simply don't think that would accurately reflect Peat's thinking.

Indeed, from my research,
Peat clearly and frequently notes
that most of those foods above are not optimal,
especially when eaten in substantial, regular amounts.
He even says most would be detrimental,
as I read him.

You see, my interest is in distilling something like an
Optimal Peat Diet
or
Strict Peat Diet
or
Ideal Peat Diet
or
Accurate Peat Diet.

Not a
Loose Peat Diet
or an
Anything Goes Peat Diet
or a
Fun Peat Diet
or an
Approximate Peat Diet.

Am I arguing that no good can come of such a "Loose Peat Diet"? Not at all.

Am I saying I think such an "Optimal Peat Diet"
will be more true to Peat and probably more effective?
Yes, that's what I'm thinking.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

nwo2012 said:
peatarian said:
But j. has a point: I don't think he meant to say that these animal products or meats contained starches but if you talk about the need to have something to 'bite' and 'crunch' --- there you go.

I have been on the Ray Peat diet for more than three years and never felt it was a 'liquid' diet just because I don't eat noodles and bread. I eat meat and potatoes, sometimes pumpkin and tomatoes (without seed), from time to time lobster or chicken or lamb broth or grilled veal liver or thymus gland. I eat fish (the ones with nearly no fat) and seefood. I honestly can't think of something I am 'craving' because I am not 'allowed' to eat it. If you want something crunchy you can make potato chips using coconut oil or eat corn flakes without additives if you absolutely feel you have to. I like to eat cheesecake every now and then (Ray Peat's recipe) and ice cream (Ray Peats recipe), the potato salad is made with mayonnaise (yes, Ray Peat's recipe) -- all things I would never have allowed myself to eat on the diets I tried before.

Is there really a general feeling of 'abstinence' when it comes to living on a diet according to Ray Peats work?

I think one should never forget that he doesn't give anybody rules. He talks about the complex ways in which the environment influences us and we influence the environment. You will not die from eating noodles with corn oil once in a while. But you would be healthier without these foods in the long run. I always think of it as knowledge that helps me discover the potential of my mind and body. But if I really feel a craving for anything (can't think of it right now) I will eat or drink it. I know the risks and the downsides and the optimum path and I think that's the important part.


Agree 100%. Ive never felt restricted staying within the guidelines, and certainly dont eat a liquid diet.


On my "liquid diet" complaint and y'all's responses:

Yes, there are ways to get around the liquidity.
But I would still maintain that
when push comes to shove,
when finding truly ripe fruit becomes problematic,
when expense and time are factored in...

...I think there is a reason Dr. Peat uses his frequent shorthand of
"everybody should have at least 2 quarts of milk and 1 quart of orange juice."

If we are trying to consistently get enough high-quality protein,
milk becomes a great answer for many if not most.

If we are trying to get enough high-quality sugars plus accompanying nutrients
like magnesium and potassium, etc,
orange juice likewise becomes perhaps The go-to food.

Now, one can argue:
Well, if you want more solidity,
why not avail yourself of the cornucopia of fruits?
Spread your table with mangoes and pineapples and bananas and peaches and papayas...

Turns out that most of those fruits are not recommended by Peat.
Some--peaches, for instance--he recommends only if organic and "perfectly" ripe,
not shelf ripened.

Yes, I could enjoy a wonderful, "solid" dinner table crammed with
watermelon and cherries and orange sections.
Whoopee!
Technically "solid," but...not really what I had in mind.

Potatoes offer some real respite.
But even here,
it should be remembered that Peat attaches many qualifications.
Ideally the potatoes should be centrifuged, cooked a long time, rinsed, and eaten with butter.
And even if these instructions are followed,
I have my strong doubts
that eating big bowls of potato with butter everyday
would be an accurate interpretation of something like an Optimal Peat Diet.

I have even stronger doubts about adding solidness
by frequent feasting upon significant portions of
masa harina (even if fried in coconut oil)
or white rice (even if boiled to death in lye).

As always,
whether or not one suffers cravings or difficulties
in trying what we might call an "Optimal Peat Diet"
depends upon
how one defines an
"Optimal Peat Diet."

Might strong suspicion is that,
if we defined such a diet in a way accurate to Peat,
most would find it a very difficult and restrictive diet.
Indeed, most would never even consider trying it for that very reason.

I am not at all addressing the health merits of such a diet,
which I strongly believe--at this point in my Peathood-- may be a reality.
I'm just speaking to the sensual and pleasure challenges of such a diet.

In the larger context
I'd like to inject some realism and self-awarenss into our
consciousnesses as Peaters.
I hang out with mostly modern, upper-class, educated, liberal, ex-hippie Americans,
who have experimented with a lot of diets
and who, generally,
are very open-minded.

When I talk to them about my Peat diet
(which now is not very often)
there is not a single one of them
--l'll repeat that--
not a single one of them
who does not look at me with a kind of pity,
as if I'd fallen under the spell of a cult.
When I detail the kinds of food I eat,
they laugh.
Honestly: they laugh. They really think I'm joking.
They couldn't even begin to consider attempting such a diet,
just based sheerly upon the anti-sensual and anti-pleasure aspects.

When we Peatatarians talk amongst ourselves
it can get to be a little bit of an echo tank.
You guys (and girls too, I'm sorry--just a mannerism):
do you not share similar experiences, reactions to your Peat diet?
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

My short reply, Narouz, is that cheese is not liquid. ;
You need to start making your own so you have full control over ingredients and fat content. Its very easy.
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
The ridicule part you speak of can happen but mate Ive been labelled a crazy conspiracy theorist for over 3 years, I actually feel proud not to be one of the sheep. YOu should feel the same, you are really taking control of your life/health. People that laugh, will not be laughing when a major illness strikes them or their families. At work nobody laughs anymore. They see, in regards to me that:

1. When flu season comes round, Im practically the only one that doesnt get sick.
2. When gastro goes rife through the hospital, again Im practically the only one that doesnt get sick.
3. I get offered a crap-load of overtime because I can replace the regularly sick workers.
4. I always have an incredible amount of energy, in fact even when I do an afternoon into nightshift over-time, I am the only one that doesnt struggle to keep my eyes open all night including compared with the workers that have slept all day and just arrived for the night-shift only.
5. I look much younger than staff members that are 10 years younger than me.
6. Im probably the most lean and muscular staff-member in the whole hospital.
7. I will out-live the majority if not all (save for a traumatic accident etc)


And I could dig out more reasons to laugh to myself but I think Ive made my point, no?
 
J

j.

Guest
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

narouz said:
You guys (and girls too, I'm sorry--just a mannerism):
do you not share similar experiences, reactions to your Peat diet?

No, but I describe the diet as: no grain or oils, I just eat dairy, fruit, meats, and eggs. So maybe I'm describing that "approximate peat diet", not the optimal one. It doesn't sound so bad to them, except for the part about grains. Many can't imagine giving up grains. I also emphasize that I eat a lot of sugar. Dulce de leche is a seemingly good product. I don't actually know the details of how it's made, but it's sort of like what you get if you boil sweetened condensed milk for 3 hours. It's very sweet, and I mention that I have between 100 and 200 grams of that per day, and people are shocked at the amount of sugar I eat.

Also, cheese is solid. I diet of milk, cheese, orange juice, eggs, dulce de leche, coffee and chocolate is to me very pleasant, and that's the base of my diet. I just add some meats to it on different days, and maybe a different fruit. Nowadays when I eat something fried in PUFAs which has a lot of grains, I don't even like it anymore, and feel bad the next day, so I don't feel I'm missing anything. Sometimes during the night I start to look forward to the orange juice and milk I'm going to have the next day.

Narouz, how do you describe your diet to your friends?
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

Charlie said:
:offtopic :threadjack

I think I will be moving this "liquid" talk to its own thread unless anyone disagrees??


Feel free mate.
I just dont get why anyone here cares what their friends think. I say f*** anyone that cant handle ANY info you give them, be proud to be different and never fear it. :cool:
 

cliff

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2012
Messages
425
Age
33
Location
Los Angeles
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

i don't know if it was an interview or email but ray has said the juiced potatoes are only necessary for people with severe digestive issues. No need to be afraid of potatoes if you tolerate them.
 

gabriel79

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
94
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

J,
Dulce de leche (I think they call it milk caramel in the US) is made by slow boiling of milk and sugar and then you add baking soda to the milk, that's when it turns brown. I prepared it with my parents with couple of times when I was a child. The consistency is a bit different from the one you normally buy, you can feel the granulated sugar.
 

nwo2012

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,107
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

Sounds like Scottish tablet, but no baking soda. Yum!
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,296
Location
USA
I have split the "Liquid Diet" discussion off into its own thread. Carry on. :)
 
J

j.

Guest
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

narouz said:
Shrimp, oysters, shellfish:
yes, Peat recommends these,
but for there nutrients--not their protein or carbs, really.
In other words, again,
Peat does not recommend eating these in amounts other than peripheral.

the question then is: would increasing the consumption some of these foods beyond peripheral amounts turn an optimal peat diet into a suboptimal one? if the answer is no, then increasing shrimp and shellfish in the diet would be one way to increase the solids.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,296
Location
USA
Re: Paul Jaminet on Ray Peat - "Sugar vs. Starch"

gabriel79 said:
J,
Dulce de leche (I think they call it milk caramel in the US) is made by slow boiling of milk and sugar and then you add baking soda to the milk, that's when it turns brown. I prepared it with my parents with couple of times when I was a child. The consistency is a bit different from the one you normally buy, you can feel the granulated sugar.

gabriel79, welcome to the forum. :wavingyellow


You know, I want whats optimal. And I sincerely appreciate narouz holding us to the line on figuring out whats optimal. Due to all this talk, I think I might consider switching up my diet a bit to a more optimal plan. Even if it means more liquid, I dont care, I want to be healthy. Even if it means cutting out all the starches for a while. I will do that. Though, potatoes give me a really huge temperature boost, masa harina doesnt. So I am thinking potatoes should be included because in the context of my health, it raises my temps.
 

Similar threads

Top