I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

[Tarmander]

Yep. After IF I weighed 145 lbs and tons of health issues. Started eating MASSIVE to fix everything, had 3,500+ calories of high quality foods (mostly Peat stuff) every day, for a year and a half... only thing happened was gained 60 lbs, that's right weight shot up to 210 lbs... TSH dropped from 8 to 6 LOL big success... didn't fix anything.

Now, back down to 150 lbs eating normal amounts of Peatarian food... TSH down to 3 several years later, but still a lot of hypo symptoms. You would think that overeating would fix what undereating breaks, but it's not that simple unfortunately.

Yeah it would be nice if you could eat your way out of it. I know some can because I've seen the results, but it isn't the majority.

My guess is that some people's livers are compromised to the point where it just bottlenecks the amount of calories you can consume and have a higher metabolism. So for example when you raise your calories from 1500 to 2000, your metabolism responds and increases, and you do better, but just a little...then you raise it from 2000 to 2500 and your dealing with the same bottleneck and those 500 calories extra are just being stored. No raise in metabolism. Maybe even a drop if there is more Endotoxin. Lots of this forum is experiments in getting rid of that bottleneck and there is definitely hope, thankfully.

 

[tca300]

" ...higher-than-needed calories tend to support cancer..." ~ Ray Peat

"..even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. " ~ Ray Peat

A few quotes to think about, when the " eat a large surplus of calories for better health " group chimes in.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Yeah it would be nice if you could eat your way out of it. I know some can because I've seen the results, but it isn't the majority.

My guess is that some people's livers are compromised to the point where it just bottlenecks the amount of calories you can consume and have a higher metabolism. So for example when you raise your calories from 1500 to 2000, your metabolism responds and increases, and you do better, but just a little...then you raise it from 2000 to 2500 and your dealing with the same bottleneck and those 500 calories extra are just being stored. No raise in metabolism. Maybe even a drop if there is more Endotoxin. Lots of this forum is experiments in getting rid of that bottleneck and there is definitely hope, thankfully.

Exactly. T3 and thyroid DO increase somewhat with higher calories (mainly higher carbs) - seen it on labs too - but it only goes up to a point, after that it's just huge weight gain. I gain weight above 2000 calories because I am quite sedentary. I go for a several mile walk but that's about it. If my thyroid worked better I could probably eat more, but it doesn't work the other way around sadly.

 

[James IV]

IF in itself doesn't cause any health problems. There are millions of people that eat 1-2 meals a day all over the world. Not eating enough,
Chronically. Eating too much, chronically. ignoring strong hunger cues and instead eating by a clock, or making poor food choices when you do eat, can all cause problems in the long term. Other than when I first got into Rays work, I have been doing unscheduled IF for almost 10 years. In other words, eat when I'm hungry, and don't eat again, until I'm hungry again. This is usually 1-3 meals a day.
The only time I ran into trouble was when I did the things I mentioned above. When you change eating patterns, your hormone patterns change. Sometimes this looks bad on paper, but causes no harm unless you try to force your body into an alternate, unnatural, eating pattern.

To be completely transparent. Occasionally,
I'll get very hungry, and I'll eat all day long. This usually happens 1-3 times a month.

 

[Regina]

IF in itself doesn't cause any health problems. There are millions of people that eat 1-2 meals a day all over the world. Not eating enough,
Chronically. Eating too much, chronically. ignoring strong hunger cues and instead eating by a clock, or making poor food choices when you do eat, can all cause problems in the long term. Other than when I first got into Rays work, I have been doing unscheduled IF for almost 10 years. In other words, eat when I'm hungry, and don't eat again, until I'm hungry again. This is usually 1-3 meals a day.
The only time I ran into trouble was when I did the things I mentioned above. When you change eating patterns, your hormone patterns change. Sometimes this looks bad on paper, but causes no harm unless you try to force your body into an alternate, unnatural, eating pattern.

Have you trained while IF'ing?

 

[James IV]

Have you trained while IF'ing?

Yes. I have trained some days before I have consumed any food. I don't do it often because I don't usually feel like weight training until after I break fast. I never force myself to train.

 

[James IV]

" ...higher-than-needed calories tend to support cancer..." ~ Ray Peat

"..even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. " ~ Ray Peat

A few quotes to think about, when the " eat a large surplus of calories for better health " group chimes in.

Bingo.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Won't most of that weight be cortisol-induced muscle loss?

Much of it would be. I was at my thinnest when I was IF with low carb, but the stress was unbelievable. I did not know high carb was even a thing when I found Dr. Peat and my mood went from night to day in a matter of months.

I think if used responsibly it is a good tool for acute weight loss, but chronic fasting for long periods (I was doing 16 to even 24+ hours sometimes) certainly seems to cause more harm than good.

And again, the weight seemed to mostly come from muscle. I was thin and emaciated looking. My muscles gained volume and density over the course of 2 years on a Peat diet. The extra fat I gained disappeared when I quit my desk job. Our bodies are made to move. :)

 

[James IV]

Won't most of that weight be cortisol-induced muscle loss?

The body doesn't really start to break down tissue for amino acids until about 12 hours with no food in the system. So if you are doing a typical 12-14 hour fast, breakdown will be negligible. Conversely, your body becomes more efficient with protein and anabolism when you fast, so the compensatory effect would likely negate any cortisol induced lean tissue loss.
If people are losing lean tissue from fasting, they are likely fasting too long, or underconsuming calories/protein during their fed periods.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Did you try going very low fat? Im losing pounds each week simply counting my total calories and keeping total fat under 20%, which can be difficult because orginally I would simply excise unsaturated fats from the diet to a large extenet, but ended up eating so much saturated fat in addition to the 300-400 grams of carbs I was eating on a daily basis that I gained about 30 lbs over 3 years, some of it muscle because I am stronger than ever but much of it fat.

Despite going low fat (which should have reduced my calories significantly) I have not seen any benefit in fatloss. I did however see the best fatloss from IF style dieting. Low carb never worked. Low fat never worked. IF did.

 

[tyw]

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

....

 

[Such_Saturation]

" ...higher-than-needed calories tend to support cancer..." ~ Ray Peat

"..even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. " ~ Ray Peat

A few quotes to think about, when the " eat a large surplus of calories for better health " group chimes in.

What's the source of that?

 

[tca300]

@Such_Saturation Emails

 

[Such_Saturation]

@Such_Saturation Emails

Private emails?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is what specifically ruined my health.

ADF consists of 24 hours fasts where you eat normally one day and then fast until dinner the next day. You break the fast in the evening (mine was usually around 9 PM), and since you can't really eat your daily calories for dinner, usually ends up being something like 600-800 calories. This greatly reduces your weekly calories and is probably what contributed to metabolic and thyroid shutdown. It only took a year for the damage to happen, and doing this was incredibly stupid, in hindsight. I would never advocate it.

I suppose IF could be 'not-unhealthy' as long as you still manage to eat 2000+ calories within the eating window, but even then, it is more physiological to make this fast during the night, and eat normally during the day. Not eating throughout the day is probably also a big part of the unhealthy aspect of ADF, as it screws with the metabolic clock and circadian rhythm.

Overall though, I don't see the necessity for either, particularly if you are already unhealthy in any way. Probably best just to stick to regular meals for the most part.

At this point I am just looking to find whatever way to increase my thyroid function back into the normal range. This is proving to be the most difficult consequence of ADF, because of the sub-optimal T4 and very few things seem to be able to increase endogenous thyroid production.

 

[James IV]

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

....

When you transitioned your eating to earlier in the day, how long did it take you to adapt to the new pattern?
Do you not find yourself more lethargic with your belly full of food all day?

 

[James IV]

Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is what specifically ruined my health.

ADF consists of 24 hours fasts where you eat normally one day and then fast until dinner the next day. You break the fast in the evening (mine was usually around 9 PM), and since you can't really eat your daily calories for dinner, usually ends up being something like 600-800 calories. This greatly reduces your weekly calories and is probably what contributed to metabolic and thyroid shutdown. It only took a year for the damage to happen, and doing this was incredibly stupid, in hindsight. I would never advocate it.

I suppose IF could be 'not-unhealthy' as long as you still manage to eat 2000+ calories within the eating window, but even then, it is more physiological to make this fast during the night, and eat normally during the day. Not eating throughout the day is probably also a big part of the unhealthy aspect of ADF, as it screws with the metabolic clock and circadian rhythm.

Overall though, I don't see the necessity for either, particularly if you are already unhealthy in any way. Probably best just to stick to regular meals for the most part.

At this point I am just looking to find whatever way to increase my thyroid function back into the normal range. This is proving to be the most difficult consequence of ADF, because of the sub-optimal T4 and very few things seem to be able to increase endogenous thyroid production.

Again, fasting didn't damage your health, chronic energy restriction damaged your health. If you had eaten the same low amount of energy in a "normal" daily eating pattern, you would have still ended up in the same place.

Consistently Ignoring true hunger cues is never a good idea in my experience.

 

[Waynish]

Extended periods of having no food passing through the gut can aide in healing, but you should quickly notice based on how you feel whether the health limits of IF are.

 

[tca300]

@Such_Saturation Yes. I asked Ray about a study that showed the more dairy men consumed, the higher the risk for prostate cancer, his response...
" The diet-cancer studies usually neglect to consider how food choices relate to total caloric intake; higher-than-needed calories tend to support cancer."

Then I asked Ray if eating a surplus of calories continuously to "raise" the metabolic rate would be beneficial, his response....
" I think that even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. With minimal PUFA, the metabolic rate increases, reducing fat deposition. "

To me the take-home message was, ( along with info gathered from other personal emails ) to keep PUFA very low, keep total fat low, and keep calories fluctuating between PERSONAL maintenance and slight deficiency so as to keep ingested PUFA from being stored, and preferentially burned for fuel. This only applies to someone who is trying to go above and beyond to create an "essential fatty acid " deficiency, which cant really happen unless its intake is dropped below .6% of calorie needs and kept there, without slip up for extended periods of time.

 

[Such_Saturation]

@Such_Saturation Yes. I asked Ray about a study that showed the more dairy men consumed, the higher the risk for prostate cancer, his response...
" The diet-cancer studies usually neglect to consider how food choices relate to total caloric intake; higher-than-needed calories tend to support cancer."

Then I asked Ray if eating a surplus of calories continuously to "raise" the metabolic rate would be beneficial, his response....
" I think that even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. With minimal PUFA, the metabolic rate increases, reducing fat deposition. "

To me the take-home message was, ( along with info gathered from other personal emails ) to keep PUFA very low, keep total fat low, and keep calories fluctuating between PERSONAL maintenance and slight deficiency so as to keep ingested PUFA from being stored, and preferentially burned for fuel. This only applies to someone who is trying to go above and beyond to create an "essential fatty acid " deficiency, which cant really happen unless its intake is dropped below .6% of calorie needs and kept there, without slip up for extended periods of time.

That's pretty interesting, I think we should add it to the wiki.