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Peatist Losers [Weight Loss]

Discussion in 'Weight' started by whodathunkit, May 17, 2016.

  1. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Member

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    Well, IMO that's debatable. Maybe since you're able to get good stuff like raw goat's milk, etc., you can be more easily assured that the bacteria that gets into your scrubbed insides is good. My whole thing is we don't really know where the pathogenic bacteria comes from in the first place, so it's hard to be assured just from ingesting food from today's typical supply chain exactly what recolonizes your clean gut. I mean, even if we're eating clean and organic there's still toxic stuff sprayed on organic food, and things get washed with gawd knows what and then rinsed how thoroughly? between picking and arriving at the market, etc.

    I tend to think a lot of pathogenic bacteria comes from food with preservatives that allow it to harbor bacteria without actually spoiling to the point where it's inedible. But that may not be the only place it comes from. And commercially available high-quality food, even fermented food, isn't a guaranteed source of viable benefical bacteria. Commercial food products often don't have many viable organisms. Within the caveat that some probiotics are also junk, IMO taking some reputable brands is probably good insurance. Other's mileage may vary on that. And I may be wrong. Just hafta see.

    I don't think so, not specifically, because I remember learning about this a long time ago, although I never paid much mind to the implications of it. Like endotoxin...never really internalized it until quite recently.

    Edit: crikey, somehow this got posted before I was done. Apologies. Finish it off with another post later.
     
  2. tara

    tara Moderator

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    I think you are right that there can be other unhelpful (to us) substances from other bacteria too. Some of the bacteria, gram positives as well as gram negatives, can produce and secrete exotoxins while they are alive, and some of them are far more vicious than regular endotoxin too - think botulism, tetanus, diptheria, salmonella, ...
    And then there's the regular everyday lactobacillus producing lactic acid that may have both mild up and mild down sides.
     
  3. tara

    tara Moderator

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    Maybe not.
    Just that if one is expecting lots of sudden endotoxin from gram negative die off is going to give a big hit, maybe one could choose (if one was feeling vulnerable) to knock them down a little more gradually - eg over a few days rather than straight to max dose - so as to get the system less overwhelmed.
    Whereas if it's exotoxins from the super-nasties, one might be more inclined to wanna get them all dead and out as fast as possible.

    There might be implications for antibiotic resistance, too, that could come into play, though I don't know how that would play out.
     
  4. thebigpeatowski

    thebigpeatowski Member

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    Could be...I dunno.

    I tend to think that pathogenic bacteria are EVERYWHERE in the environment. I think two people living in the same household under the same conditions can eat the exact same food and have a radically different response based on a zillion different factors, some of which might include:
    • metabolic rate
    • immune system
    • types and quantity of resident gut flora
    • age/gender
    • PUFA status
    • history of anti-biotic use
    • hormones
    • stress levels
    • who knows

    Do we have absolute proof that store bought probiotics actually take up permanent residence in the intestines? I've read that most are transient, albeit potentionally helpful, but I really have NO clue.

    I personally never received help from taking probiotics, but that could very well be due to the fact that my own intestines were completely over-run with icky stuff? I knew nothing about bio-films or parasites back then.....plus I was eating a very thyroid suppressive diet (lots of PUFA)....looking back, I can see there'd be no way I would've/could've overcome my gut situation, despite throwing down truly insane amounts of probiotics.....not a chance.

    But now that I've reduced a lot of the other contributing burdens....I do wonder if now they might be beneficial? I'm eager to hear about your experience @whodathunkit !!!

    *Please note*

    I have no proof or hard evidence of anything I say. I can only go by my own personal experience and really want to learn more in this area because I think it's some how very relevant to inflammation and therefore FAT LOSS (trying desperately to stay within the boundaries of this thread). There's some evidence that lean people naturally harbor more of certain kinds of gut flora and fat people have less of those specific strains and more of less friendly strains....(have NO idea which is which tho).

    Also @whodathunkit.....I've been meaning to bring up the importance of liver health as it pertains to fat loss. I think a clean/unburdened well-nourished liver is absolutely critical to a healthy metabolism....for clearing estrogen and endotoxin which are both thyroid suppressive.....for making bile salts to improve digestion and elimination, for regulating blood sugar....all that GOOD stuff.

    I know you guys already know all this, I'm just reiterating cuz that's what I do.
     
  5. tara

    tara Moderator

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    +1
     
  6. thebigpeatowski

    thebigpeatowski Member

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    Ripped from Functional PS......love that site, btw:

    Liver and Thyroid
    The liver performs many functions and its health is paramount to ridding the body of toxins, regulating blood sugar & estrogen, producing cholesterol, and supporting metabolism. The thyroid gland in located in the lower front portion of your neck and is responsible for making thyroid hormones that regulate metabolism and energy.

    Most of the hormone that the thyroid gland itself makes is a precursor hormone, known as T4 or thyroxine. T4 does NOT increase the metabolism; it must be converted into another hormone, T3 or triiodothyronine, to have this effect.

    Only about 10% of the hormone produced by the gland is T3, which is known as the active thyroid hormone. It’s T3 that is deficient in hypothyroidism and its availability determines the intensity of the metabolic rate.

    The large amount of the precursor hormone T4 made the thyroid gland must be converted into T3 by the liver. The liver (if well nourished by a supportive diet and lifestyle) enzymatically converts T4 into T3 as T3 is consumed by the tissues. Most (~70%) of the body’s T3 is provided by the liver, not the thyroid gland.

    The liver is an endocrine gland and produces more T3 than does the thyroid! Metabolic slow downs often occur due to poor liver health. Anything that adversely affects liver function will influence metabolism and the production of a majority of the body’s T3. T3 not only determines the intensity of the metabolic rate; but as discussed next, also determines the rate at which cholesterol is converted into steroid hormones and bile salts.
     
  7. SQu

    SQu Member

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    Update on trying to achieve fat loss and health at the same time:
    because this is true for me too -
    LF is very stressful in my case, and seeing as I can't currently get hold of that miraculous stuff theanine, I revisited high fat, because that's the main reason I low carbed so many years. Fat makes me feel less inflamed and stressed at least initially (such impressive relief I carried on low carbing far far too long, long after the reverse had become true). But after a week or so it made me sluggish. I have no energy for gym, hence some weight creep. (Clarification: I was also drinking fruit juice and avoiding starch, so not low carb.)
    Also I've never been aware of gallbladder issues but got what felt like a pulled muscle in my back on the right below the bottom edge of my scapula, between that and my waist, midway between spine and side. Anyone know if that might be the gall bladder?
    Wishing to nip this in the bud, I am considering liver and gallbladder flushes as mentioned recently on the forum. I'm definitely a candidate for gall bladder troubles and already know my liver health needs to improve.
    Any update? I know liver health is a big priority for you too.
    I've been doing the same. My current quest: try to determine whether the liver/ gallbladder flush really flushes stones and not a combination of the olive oil, lemon juice and bile; and then to try and apply what I've learned from Peat to the concept and tweak it and understand the principle on which it works (if it does) so 1. I'm really flushing stones if that's what's desirable and 2. Without taking in around 13 g + pufa in the 120g olive oil and without unnecessary nauseating ingredients/ methods like drinking Epsom salts, half a cup of olive oil. 3. Without being unnecessarily harsh on tooth enamel, gut, gb or liver. 4. Without doing actual harm and finding out the hard way what the downside might be. So far reading up it mostly seems to be a sometimes horrible but transient and ultimately effective experience at worst, but I don't want to risk finding that it can be much worse than that.
    Having had trouble or not much improvement with the caffeine/aspirin/biotin liver health approach, I'm trying what I think is a peaty version of a liver cleanse (though I couldn't find anything on what he thinks of the concept). So for the next few days I'm trying this: a litre of apple juice + malic acid drunk through a straw and rinsed with bicarb/magnesium immediately; mag malate (rp Peatarian email thread said OK but watch for headaches), breakfast of 2 raw egg yolks in 2 tbs butter then juice of 2 lemons (diluted and sugar added to be gentler) surprisingly yum! and a coffee enema. Carrot salad without fail. The rest of the diet and supps as normal. Comments/ideas very welcome!
     
  8. Nova

    Nova Member

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    Commentary from newb:

    I've been thinking a lot about liver cleansing lately. Mostly because I've been losing weight doing Peat inspired HCLF and I've hit this speedbump called my bigass gut. My legs look good, my upper arms are bingo wing free, and my boobs are looking good...but I haven't really lost anything from my midsection. I always look bloated and I'm sick of it. I'm thinking that maybe I have a fat, sluggish liver or I'm just clogged with PUFA since I've been PUFA detoxing for the last few months.

    Anyway, my research into liver cleanses has been overwhelming. I was leaning towards a few rounds of a very robust liver cleanse that I've seen advertised on one of my favorite YouTube channels. Further research into that cleanse revealed it to be one of those "for best results, eat cabbage soup and drink epsom salt laced distilled water" cleanses that will likely lead me to spend a week in bed between sprints to the toilet.

    So far, I've only found one liver cleanse that seems decent enough to risk. It's vinegar based and comes in liquid form, which I like because swallowing capsules is sometimes difficult for me. It's called Natural Complete Liver Cleanse, or something like that. (I've seen under 3 different listings on Amazon, but the company that makes it is called Natural Complete.) That's the one I'm probably going to give a shot sometime in the near future.

    Another component I've considered adding is some NAC or N-acetylcysteine. NAC is the precursor to glutathione, which is a cleansing antioxidant. Or so I've gathered during my reading. Glutathione production is one factor that cleanses the liver, so boosting the levels of NAC available for the glutathione production process helps the cleansing process along.

    I'm starting to get to where I think that maybe it would be more prudent of me to focus on improving the underlying systems via cleansing and other means before really focusing on losing more weight. I imagine that things could get pretty rough as tired old PUFAs and other assorted nasties are liberated within me.
     
  9. tara

    tara Moderator

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    I have never done a liver/GB flush, but I've read about them. I think there are variants without the epsom salts, that some favour. If it were me, I'd consider trying apple juice and maybe ACV for quite a while to see if that gradually helped soften and dissolve them, rather than being quick to the flush - me being a wuss and all. The flush involves making the liver spasm vigorously, which sounds like a bit of a stress to me - though I do believe that quite a lot of people have felt better for them.
     
  10. SQu

    SQu Member

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    Me too! My biggest bump of all, and the last to shift at all. Didn't use to be my tendency but these days it is.

    I'm getting the idea that gentler would be better. I read one account by a raw vegan of 100 pounds if I remember correctly who really took a knock and months later was still struggling with her digestion. I think some here who eat similarly, are really focusing on finding a way to do it that is gentle on digestion, but I imagine if you weren't, your digestion might be rather vulnerable to begin with. Mine isn't too bad but it has to be a factor or i wouldn't be in this state, so, I'd rather take great care.

    I used to like it, got confused (still am) seeing as cysteine is not great. But liking anything in my case always seems to mean it's helping my liver. So it may be worth revisiting this one.

    I agree.

    I used to be very gung ho, but finally I'm learning some caution!
    So far the apple juice, and all the rest is going down well and my energy and well being is subtly better.oh, and 'pulled muscle' whatever it was, gone, yay
     
  11. Nova

    Nova Member

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    Been reading upthread about attempts to cleanse the intestines. Sterilizing the gut? Is that even possible?

    I've done cleanses before, several years ago I went through a bout of intense detox before attempting a juice regimen. I shat out lots of suspicious looking things. :eek:

    Currently, I am leaning towards cleansing my liver and gut before proceeding any further on my journey towards weight loss and optimal health. The top of my abdomen has been bloated for like 5 or 6 days now and it's tender today. :depressed:

    I've been totally zapped since Monday. Really the first time since I started Peating (my kinda sorta transitional version of Peating) that I've felt this way. Something is definitely going on within me. No appetite. Sleeping more. Swollen upper belly. Blaaaaah.

    Back to sterilizing the gut:

    Anyone try prebiotics? From what I understand, they feed the good guys and encourage them to "take back" the gut from the baddies. Prebiotics actually make it through the stomach. Unlike many probiotics, which never reach the gut in any measurable amount. Hence them being "transient" and not really making that much of a difference for anybody who isn't Jamie Lee Curtis.

    Also, I've read about that fecal transplant thing too. I'm a bit leery of having someone else's sh!t in my colon. But I suppose that I'd consider it if I really thought it would help. I have a few thin crunchy-naturalist type acquaintances that I could ask...but that would be an awkward conversation. Is there a polite way to solicit a fecal transplant donation from a seeming metabolically blessed health nut friend? Not sure...

    Turpentine seems like overkill to me. I don't know, kinda makes me think of this one time I accidentally swallowed gasoline while trying to siphon some gas from a friend's car. Never again.
     
  12. Orion

    Orion Member

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    Same issues here, if you search for some of Haiduts older posts, he mentions that aspirin and niacinamide can backfire on a liver that is impaired or fatty. Biotin can really increase your need for sugar/energy. I would drop those for now, and focus only on small amounts of caffeine, cleaning out the liver first, then once metabolism and sugar burning start to increase, experiment with aspirin, B3, biotin, T3..., the uncouplers. Thiamine (B1) can be helpful in small amounts to start as well, to oxidize large sugar intakes.

    Haiduts rant is in the first post:

    Improving Liver Function Before Going Full Peat? Dealing With Abdominal Fat
     
  13. thebigpeatowski

    thebigpeatowski Member

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    Nova...oh my gawd yer killin' me....So funny!!!:lol:

    I had the unfortunate occasion to have this very conversation while lunching with an old high school chum two years ago. It didn't go well, but I did manage to secure the offer of a lifetime supply of aloe vera gel (drop-shipped to my home by the case even). He owns the company.

    Re: turpentine, it is overkill, but that's the point.:wink
     
  14. SQu

    SQu Member

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    Thanks Orion. And for the link. I'm 3 years into pufa lowering. All those substances initially helped a lot. Still take them but faint effects only though admittedly if I stop I decline. I have temporarily stopped B3 though to be honest I forget the reasoning, is it that preventing fat burning prevents fat loss? Aspirin I stopped my 500mg at night but during one of my numerous wakeups often take 250mg because I'm hoping (in vain) removing the aching will help me sleep. Because sleeping this badly, my clothes are tighter next day. In spite of plenty minerals and the t3 +t4 I've been taking 2.5 years I get a twitchy eyelid, so, not retaining minerals.
    I'm certainly guilty of pushing low metabolism too hard, am being more cautious now. The liver cleanse (sort of) as outlined above has had slightly positive results in energy, mood. The egg yolks in butter has been bliss. Clothes a bit looser correlating with how good i feel in the daytime. Sleep has been overall worse except for one night. I'm pondering ornithine/cinnamon for ammonia lowering every few days as definitely helps night 1, thereafter, meh. So many people have fixed their insomnia, I've tried everything I've read about here, and nothing but for occasional irreproducible good nights/patches.
     
  15. Orion

    Orion Member

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    I have been over 5yrs avoiding high PUFA foods, but even cheese, butter, full fat milk, even coconut oil still have PUFA. There are some posts of haidut mentioning that aspirin and B3 will not be good for people with impaired liver function, it will make things worse. I am just using sugared water for night wakeups now. 4tbsp water to 2tbsp sugar, one gulp when I wake up. I think insomnia is closely tie to a impaired liver and glycogen storage. In an experiment I took Isocort which is cortisol in pill form, it produces absolute insomnia, impossible to fall asleep. So I think lowering cortisol, adrenaline, estrogen, serotonin = blissful sleep. I am hoping this can be done with a VLF liver cleanse to improve liver function.

    So I dropped most uncoupler supps last week and I am doing the complete zero fat liver cleanse approach.

    Skim milk, sugar, 0% quark and greek yogurt, ripe and dried fruit, collagen, liver, apple juice concentrate, salt

    Getting close to 3K calories, with at least 100g protein (6grams glycine).

    Supps I still use: tocovit, mitolipin, kuinone, lapodin, taurine, vitA 15K, red light, mag oil spray, 1mcg tyronene on scalp

    If things go well, will be trying to add back in: aspirin, B1, B3, MB, energin, androsterone, pansterone, and maybe tiny bit progestene

    After reading almost every single post on this forum, the theme seems to filter back to a liver or body with to much PUFA stored.

    And for acne I believe the key is that PUFA environment(cortisol, adrenaline, estrogen) traps/dis-regulates to much calcium in cells ie calcified skin... to cure acne you need to de-PUFA your liver, cells, body, along with K2 and A/D to get calcium back into hard tissue, excess out of soft tissue :)

    Unsaturated fatty acids induce calcium influx into keratinocytes and cause abnormal differentiation of epidermis. - PubMed - NCBI

    Danny Roddy just did a pod cast with Kyle Mamounis, in his AHS talk he mentions PUFA trapping calcium:



    The new podcast:


    Will report my findings in about 1 month (30 day PUFA cleanse). Sleep, bowels, acne, teeth, hair shedding, body composition, mental state.
     
  16. SQu

    SQu Member

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    Looks like it.
    I do a lot to lower these things, with some small success, but flushes and night sweats do not respond, insomnia, cortisol belly, constipation, in particular are my issues.
    Very much look forward to hearing these. Don't have acne, hair shedding or teeth problems, and P5P with magnesium, plus tyrosine, and theanine, keep mental issues OK thank goodness, so grateful for that. Sometime soon I'm considering moving back to lower then low fat with much care and mineral etc support, and slowly so as not to provide any gall bladder issues (just in case).
    Thank you for the links Orion.
    Look forward to your updates.
     
  17. Nova

    Nova Member

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    I don't actually plan on having this convo with my friends, lol.

    It just seems as if it would be easier to get a fecal transplant from a "healthy" person (or at least one isn't as ****88 up as I am atm) than it would be to sterilize my gut and all that jazz.

    What are you trying to kill with turpentine? I mean, what's the primary objective behind drinking it? I've honestly never heard of anyone doing it. I find it strange, but interesting. (And if you've mentioned upthread, I'm just coming clean right now and telling everyone I haven't read the entire thing.) Terrible, terrible me.

    Is the purpose of drinking turpentine for supposed full sterilization of the gut? As in, as few of those microbial bastards as possible? Possible recolonization of said gut by "good guys"?
     
  18. mattyb

    mattyb Member

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    Just wondering what everyone's stance here on exercise is? What kinds are people doing, how often, how long, etc?

    I've had a ton of success leaning down by upping my exercise frequency to seven days a week. Mostly short bouts (30-60min) of resistance training, bodyweight training, and some small amounts of *fun* cardio (mostly in the form of mountain biking or soccer - which last for 1-3 hours). I've found Peat's principles to work extremely well in this context - I seem to always have energy for training.
     
  19. Nova

    Nova Member

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    I walk 1-3 miles a day. I also have a very large dog that I play soccer and catch with, as well as some specialized training when I have the time. I do some yoga as well.

    I'm not against exercise, but my current woes are maintaining energy balance. I don't get hungry like I used to, I forget to eat, I don't eat enough, and a lot of times I run on caffeine and sugar. Exercise really cuts into my daily kcal intake and I haven't really gotten to a point where I have found balance.

    @thebigpeatowski
    I have answered my own questions by reading the thread and doing some research. I think I may have figured out the gut repopulation thing somewhat. Or at least I have some interesting theories. PM me if you're curious and I'll try to hammer it out sometime. :)
     
  20. redlight

    redlight Member

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    i actually just switched from Great lakes to ZINT because ZINT has the bulk 15lbs which comers out to be $11/lb which is a good deal. I go through like 100g a day of gelatin
     
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