Fat Loss On Low Fat, My Experiment

[Hans]

Just want to follow up on a little experiment that I mentioned a few months ago... I thought of doing an experiment on high protein, low carb for a year, then low fat, high carb and then comparing the two to see which one worked best for me to build muscle and get ripped at the same time.
I ended up doing the high protein low carb for about 2 months, before switching. I mainly consumed egg shakes with cream and milk, as well as organ meat and had weekly refeeds with boiled potatoes.
It was pretty ok, but fat loss wasn't as fast as I hoped it would be, plus the pumps from my workouts and my mood wasn't very good. I did gain muscle and lose a bit of fat during that time, but I quit because my mood wasn't getting any better, and the hunger was pretty bad. The food was pretty bland and I would rather fast/skip breakfast, just because I didn't like eggs lol.

So I switched to moderate protein (80g), high carb (300-400g) and moderate to low fat (40g) for a month. The pumps were pretty insane, my mood was great, and I had more stable energy during the day. I also noticed that my tolerance to carbs was much better, as the low carb diet must have improved my insulin sensitivity. But after about a month my fat loss stared to stall again, so I decided to increase my protein to 140-150g and reduce fats to 20-30g. I then started to lose fat again at a decent, steady rate. I also implemented a bit of intermittent fasting, which really helps with the fat loss, especially with the stubborn fat. Almost 2 months now of low fat and I have no cravings for fats at all, plus I'm losing fat much better now than when I was doing low carb.

Protein is really the biggest factor when it comes to muscle retention and fat loss, as it provides the most satiety and thermogenesis of all the macronutrients, and most importantly prevents catabolism and promotes anabolism.
Carbs are second most important for fat loss and muscle retention because in order to be able to maintain muscle during a deficit, you need to lift weights. And in order to have successful, least stressful workouts, where you maintain your power output, the body needs carbs more than fats. Studies also show that carbs are more needed for maintaining exercise performance, than what fat is for more testosterone production, in order to maintain the most muscle.
For me I do very well on milk, potatoes, sweet potatoes and sugar as carbs sources. When I eat white rice it gives me an unpleasant nauseous/hunger feeling in my gut. Fruit don't provide enough satiety for me, and OJ gives me weird adrenaline symptoms, but I would definitely increase my fruit intake after this cut.
I recently refed on pizza, and I guess I detoxed from gluten a while ago, because I definitely felt that lobotomizing effect of gluten that Travis talked about lol. Can't focus, brain fog, fatigue, etc... Pretty bad.

To sum it all up, this was my experience:
Low carb:

• Hunger
• Bad training pumps
• Bad mood
• Very slow fat loss
• Did gain some muscle so wasn't catabolic...yet
• Constant carb cravings
• Increase in anxiety and possibly an increase in serotonin
• Low labido

Low fat:

• Great pumps and muscle contractions
• Better muscle and strength gains
• More endurance during workouts
• Faster fat loss (with higher protein)
• Much better mood
• No cravings
• Less anxiety
• Better mental focus when working
• Much better labido

I'll be cutting for about 1 to 2 more months, want to get really ripped, and then I'll go on a lean bulk from there, but I'll probably never go high fat, low carb again. I think changing the amounts of carbs every now and again is a good idea to resensitize yourself to insulin, as I think my results would not have been as good if I didn't do the low carb beforehand. It significantly improved my carb tolerance and ability to stabilize my blood sugar with higher carbs.

So if you have any questions, shoot away, and/or comments are welcome.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Thanks for sharing your low fat experience. The approach is very intriguing. It reminds me of the posts by Zachs where he had a lot of success following a very low fat plan, losing around 35lbs of fat in a 5 months, while not restricting or cutting calories at all (at least around 3000 a day, from what I read). There's a summary of his experience in this thread: Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism I believe it can work, as apparently a very low fat diet is also practiced by some of those who were inspired by McDougall and the "Starch Solution" (i.e., the vast majority of one's calories coming from starches such as potatoes or rice). However, I have seen some people say they were miserable and were on edge all the time while eating very low fat, so perhaps there is still variation among individual physiologies/health histories. For example, another poster, I think "Kreeese", had much more success losing bodyfat on a high saturated-fat, but also high sugar approach (source: PROGRESS REPORT FASTEST FAT LOSS EVER THANKS TO RAYYY ) As an aside, I wonder what are the causes of the different outcomes.

I have a few questions, if you wouldn't mind going deeper into your experience.

1. How was/is your sleep during this time?
2. Around how many calories a day are you getting, on estimate?
3. How much fat/weight did you lose during your low fat period? Doing a quick calculation from Zachs's post, it looked like he was losing a bit more than 1.5lbs a week. So I wonder if that is around a safe limit for fat loss, if one is maintaining around 3000 calories, while significantly reducing dietary fat.
4. What would you a sample day of eating look like for you?

EDIT: There is also the 1938 William Brown experiment, as another historical precedent for a very low fat diet: Effects of Prolonged Use of Extremely Low-Fat Diet on an Adult Human Subject | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

Thanks @Salmonamb .

 

[Hans]

I must say, I don't think I would have felt the same and gotten the same results, as I'm getting now, if I didn't do the low carb beforehand.
When I switched to high carb, after the low carb, my protein was about 80g, and carbs around 350g, and my fat loss still felt a bit slow. After a month of high carb I increased protein to 150g and decreased carbs to 150-200g. My fat loss is now pretty consistent and faster, so I think my body likes higher protein, moderate carbs and low fat. Maybe if I did the high carb period with fruit my results would have been different. I would've liked to have eaten fruit instead, but it's a bit expensive at the moment, so I'll try it in the near future.
My total calories is about 2000, except for the refeeds. I only lift weights and don't do any cardio. I was about between 15-20% bodyfat when I started, and am now around 10% (might be a bit less though), so I didn't have excessive amounts of fat to lose to start with. I lost around 6kg in this period of 4 months, but it's hard to say how much fat I lost as I increased my measurements around my shoulders, chest, arms, quads and calves, showing that I gained muscle and lost fat at the same time, so I probably lost more than 6kg already.

So onto your questions:

1. My sleep was ok, but definitely not the best. Although, I'm thinking it was majorly due to other factors, such as, not enough clean air, humid nights, mosquitoes, loud traffic noises and so on. So it wasn't just the diet that was affecting my sleep. I can't really say my sleep is a lot better now, as it's still a bit disrupted, which is really taxing on one's health.
2. I consume around 2000 calories except on refeeds.
3. I lost around 3+kg of fat in the last 2 months of low fat. I would definitely not be losing fat if I eat around 3000 calories, but maybe if I gave my body more time, my metabolism would speed up and I would be able to stay lean on 3000 calories. In the future I would preferably eat meat, milk and lots of fruit and see how I do. I'm aiming for 1lb of fat loss per week, and as I'm already fairly lean, I don't want to lose any muscle dieting too hard.
4. Coffee with low fat milk and sugar. Casein with low fat milk, creatine, BCAAs, tyrosine preworkout. Chicken breast in a little bit of butter, and boiled potato and sweet potato post workout. And then just more coffee later in the day.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Thanks for elaborating on your approach - it is very interesting for me to see the different methods people have used. Glad it worked out with respect to fat loss/muscle gain.

 

[lvysaur]

I feel best on high-moderate fat high starch (potatoes) with big gaps in between meals, I think it really riles up the stomach acid, which in turn decreases bacterial growth. I've been doing this for a few weeks now.

Basically a meat and potatoes type diet, with a lot of activity.

I think gluten-free is important here.

Also, it's "libido".

 

[EIRE24]

I feel best on high-moderate fat high starch (potatoes) with big gaps in between meals, I think it really riles up the stomach acid, which in turn decreases bacterial growth. I've been doing this for a few weeks now.

Basically a meat and potatoes type diet, with a lot of activity.

I think gluten-free is important here.

Also, it's "libido".

This is what works best for me too.

 

[Wagner83]

I feel best on high-moderate fat high starch (potatoes) with big gaps in between meals, I think it really riles up the stomach acid, which in turn decreases bacterial growth. I've been doing this for a few weeks now.

Basically a meat and potatoes type diet, with a lot of activity.

I think gluten-free is important here.

Also, it's "libido".

Two meals a day? I think mushrooms if tolerated, fruit like pineapples or mangoes , turmeric and coffee can all stimulate digestion without needing to increase fat much. I'm not saying eating fat is an issue, but if anything there may be further improvement with those. Perhaps some taurine once in a while could help as well, along with red light on the liver, in the eyes, on the forehead and temples.
Anyways this is what I've been doing with good results in terms of digestion.

 

[EIRE24]

I must say, I don't think I would have felt the same and gotten the same results, as I'm getting now, if I didn't do the low carb beforehand.
When I switched to high carb, after the low carb, my protein was about 80g, and carbs around 350g, and my fat loss still felt a bit slow. After a month of high carb I increased protein to 150g and decreased carbs to 150-200g. My fat loss is now pretty consistent and faster, so I think my body likes higher protein, moderate carbs and low fat. Maybe if I did the high carb period with fruit my results would have been different. I would've liked to have eaten fruit instead, but it's a bit expensive at the moment, so I'll try it in the near future.
My total calories is about 2000, except for the refeeds. I only lift weights and don't do any cardio. I was about between 15-20% bodyfat when I started, and am now around 10% (might be a bit less though), so I didn't have excessive amounts of fat to lose to start with. I lost around 6kg in this period of 4 months, but it's hard to say how much fat I lost as I increased my measurements around my shoulders, chest, arms, quads and calves, showing that I gained muscle and lost fat at the same time, so I probably lost more than 6kg already.

So onto your questions:

1. My sleep was ok, but definitely not the best. Although, I'm thinking it was majorly due to other factors, such as, not enough clean air, humid nights, mosquitoes, loud traffic noises and so on. So it wasn't just the diet that was affecting my sleep. I can't really say my sleep is a lot better now, as it's still a bit disrupted, which is really taxing on one's health.
2. I consume around 2000 calories except on refeeds.
3. I lost around 3+kg of fat in the last 2 months of low fat. I would definitely not be losing fat if I eat around 3000 calories, but maybe if I gave my body more time, my metabolism would speed up and I would be able to stay lean on 3000 calories. In the future I would preferably eat meat, milk and lots of fruit and see how I do. I'm aiming for 1lb of fat loss per week, and as I'm already fairly lean, I don't want to lose any muscle dieting too hard.
4. Coffee with low fat milk and sugar. Casein with low fat milk, creatine, BCAAs, tyrosine preworkout. Chicken breast in a little bit of butter, and boiled potato and sweet potato post workout. And then just more coffee later in the day.

No salmon in your diet with a name like that?

 

[Glassy]

It’s such a shame Zach’s isn’t on the forum anymore. His experiences were fascinating even if you don’t agree with the rationale behind them all. I think the idea that your human body can’t produce enough fat to meet basic fat requirements even with DNL increased, makes perfect sense to me (his reason for losing weight with high calories).

Ive been experimenting with very low fat to see whether I can tolerate it and so far it seems I can pretty well. I don’t know why I struggled in the past but I seem to do ok on it now.

Originally I didn’t think I’d be able to cope with fat intake very low (only real fat source from lean/trimmed beef rump), but it’s been fairly easy so far (around 3 weeks now). I have a work trip next week, but afterwards I’d like to try and mimic Zacks experience by going even lower in fat than I am by removing meat (targeting less than 10g/day - currently 20-25g/day). It seems he didn’t eat meat and had low fat dairy as a source of protein (overall he didn’t have a very high protein level it seems).

I’m thinking my diet will be mainly potatoes, white rice, gelatine, sugar (concentrated OJ, cordial, etc), Greek yoghurt and boiled egg whites. It sounds bland as all hell but should be sustainable for a month or two. It’s spring here in Australia so fruit should be starting to become abundant and I’d like to slim down a bit for the summer. Depending on how it goes, I’ll introduce some saturated fat back in later first as coconut oil, then butter, cheese etc. I will eat slightly more fat (still low) 2 days per week when I eat my liver and oysters.

I have also been IFing for a long time but I’m finding it doesn’t feel so good while doing low fat. I’ve started moving away from it and eating lightly in the AM (mainly fruit/sugars). I’m thinking it’s probably going to be easier getting calories in with a more normal eating window and will be more beneficial while eating low fat. It has been good for limiting the weight gain while eating moderate carbs & fat.

 

[danielbb]

Thank you very kindly for posting these results - most appreciated @Salmonamb. I have to tell you my experiments are correlating with yours. I have been troubleshooting low thyroid for weeks now and the unmistakable conclusion is simple carbs (sugar, honey) have raised my body temperatures to normal and my resting heart rate is often about 85 bpm. I've also upped my salt intake but the improvement seems directly related to simple carbs.

I am 58 years old and currently weigh 195 so I would like to know how much you weigh so I can gauge my dosing requirements. I am interested in body building but not to get big but to be ripped. Fat loss is very important to me. I've had great success with intermittent fasting and low carb and got down to 180 but had low body temperatures, cold/bluish/shriveled fingers, moodiness, poor sleep, and other issues. I discovered a Coke before bedtime dramatically improved things for me although others who have tried my Coke idea have had trouble sleeping. The Coke revelation led me to Ray Peat and I have read his writings over and over again. Here is the formula that has transformed my thyroid functioning and my whole well-being.

Never eat PUFA. No beans, grains, or other complex carbohydrates. No starch as in flour. No high fructose corn syrup. No carrageenan. No raw vegetables.

Upon waking:
1 tsp honey
1 glass OJ (no pulp)
1 glass of 1% milk

About an hour later, two cups of 50/50 coffee/1% milk. 1 tsp honey before each cup. This mixture always raises my body temperature to normal.

Drink a total of 12 cups of 1% milk throughout the day for 96g of protein and 18g of fat. Have 1 tsp of honey before each cup of milk. (THIS HAS BEEN THE KEY TO GETTING MY BODY TEMPERATURE and RESTING HEART RATE to NORMAL).
2 cups of OJ per day (sometimes more) 4g protein.

1 raw carrot for lunch along with milk and honey. I found that milk and honey raises my energy level and keeps hunger at bay.

For dinner, usually have a burger which is about 24 grams of protein and 21g of fat. I take a 250 mg egg shell calcium supplement to counteract the prosperous in the burger. Usually have either white mashed potatoes or white rice with my burger. Other meats are fine as well but burgers work best for me. Once per week substitute liver for the burger. Every other week eat about a dozen raw oysters.

Coke before bed - NEVER miss this but for those that may have trouble sleeping, two tablespoons of honey will work.

Typical macro profile:

127 grams of protein from milk, meat, OJ, and potato or rice.
42 grams of fat
370 grams carbs

The revelation for me has been adding about 1 tsp of honey each time I ingest something. I've been thrilled with the results.

 

[EIRE24]

It’s such a shame Zach’s isn’t on the forum anymore. His experiences were fascinating even if you don’t agree with the rationale behind them all. I think the idea that your human body can’t produce enough fat to meet basic fat requirements even with DNL increased, makes perfect sense to me (his reason for losing weight with high calories).

Ive been experimenting with very low fat to see whether I can tolerate it and so far it seems I can pretty well. I don’t know why I struggled in the past but I seem to do ok on it now.

Originally I didn’t think I’d be able to cope with fat intake very low (only real fat source from lean/trimmed beef rump), but it’s been fairly easy so far (around 3 weeks now). I have a work trip next week, but afterwards I’d like to try and mimic Zacks experience by going even lower in fat than I am by removing meat (targeting less than 10g/day - currently 20-25g/day). It seems he didn’t eat meat and had low fat dairy as a source of protein (overall he didn’t have a very high protein level it seems).

I’m thinking my diet will be mainly potatoes, white rice, gelatine, sugar (concentrated OJ, cordial, etc), Greek yoghurt and boiled egg whites. It sounds bland as all hell but should be sustainable for a month or two. It’s spring here in Australia so fruit should be starting to become abundant and I’d like to slim down a bit for the summer. Depending on how it goes, I’ll introduce some saturated fat back in later first as coconut oil, then butter, cheese etc. I will eat slightly more fat (still low) 2 days per week when I eat my liver and oysters.

I have also been IFing for a long time but I’m finding it doesn’t feel so good while doing low fat. I’ve started moving away from it and eating lightly in the AM (mainly fruit/sugars). I’m thinking it’s probably going to be easier getting calories in with a more normal eating window and will be more beneficial while eating low fat. It has been good for limiting the weight gain while eating moderate carbs & fat.

Zachs actually eats high fat now and keeps his carbs much much lower. He ran into problems on high carb.

 

[Hans]

Thank you very kindly for posting these results - most appreciated @Salmonamb. I have to tell you my experiments are correlating with yours. I have been troubleshooting low thyroid for weeks now and the unmistakable conclusion is simple carbs (sugar, honey) have raised my body temperatures to normal and my resting heart rate is often about 85 bpm. I've also upped my salt intake but the improvement seems directly related to simple carbs.

I am 58 years old and currently weigh 195 so I would like to know how much you weigh so I can gauge my dosing requirements. I am interested in body building but not to get big but to be ripped. Fat loss is very important to me. I've had great success with intermittent fasting and low carb and got down to 180 but had low body temperatures, cold/bluish/shriveled fingers, moodiness, poor sleep, and other issues. I discovered a Coke before bedtime dramatically improved things for me although others who have tried my Coke idea have had trouble sleeping. The Coke revelation led me to Ray Peat and I have read his writings over and over again. Here is the formula that has transformed my thyroid functioning and my whole well-being.

Never eat PUFA. No beans, grains, or other complex carbohydrates. No starch as in flour. No high fructose corn syrup. No carrageenan. No raw vegetables.

Upon waking:
1 tsp honey
1 glass OJ (no pulp)
1 glass of 1% milk

About an hour later, two cups of 50/50 coffee/1% milk. 1 tsp honey before each cup. This mixture always raises my body temperature to normal.

Drink a total of 12 cups of 1% milk throughout the day for 96g of protein and 18g of fat. Have 1 tsp of honey before each cup of milk. (THIS HAS BEEN THE KEY TO GETTING MY BODY TEMPERATURE and RESTING HEART RATE to NORMAL).
2 cups of OJ per day (sometimes more) 4g protein.

1 raw carrot for lunch along with milk and honey. I found that milk and honey raises my energy level and keeps hunger at bay.

For dinner, usually have a burger which is about 24 grams of protein and 21g of fat. I take a 250 mg egg shell calcium supplement to counteract the prosperous in the burger. Usually have either white mashed potatoes or white rice with my burger. Other meats are fine as well but burgers work best for me. Once per week substitute liver for the burger. Every other week eat about a dozen raw oysters.

Coke before bed - NEVER miss this but for those that may have trouble sleeping, two tablespoons of honey will work.

Typical macro profile:

127 grams of protein from milk, meat, OJ, and potato or rice.
42 grams of fat
370 grams carbs

The revelation for me has been adding about 1 tsp of honey each time I ingest something. I've been thrilled with the results.

For fat loss, I would aim to lose 1lb of body fat per week, so it would be a good idea to weigh yourself regularly. You can drop body fat slower if you want, but then it becomes boring and you might lose motivation.

Have you logged your foods in cronometer to see how much micros you are ingesting?
A simple way to drop fat without counting calories is to drop carbs slowly. So for example, you remove one portion of carbs at breakfast, while keeping your carb intake for the other meals the same. For each portion of carb your remove, add a portion of protein, such as casein, lean beef, chicken breast or something. Then after a week, weigh yourself to see if you have lost 1lb of body fat. If you haven't, reduce your carb intake by another portion until you reach that 1lb per week goal.

The "problem" with simple carbs such as honey and sugar, is that it doesn't contain any/much nutrients. So when you start dropping carbs, you're left with little nutrients. If you are not low in nutrients, you don't have to worry about this.

So to sum it up. The simplest way to lose fat is to substitute a portion of carbs for protein so that you lose 1lb of fat per week. If fat loss slows down or stalls, substitute another portion of carbs for protein and so on until you reach your desired body fat.

You can also look into uncouplers to increase thermogenesis, while cutting.

 

[Glassy]

Zachs actually eats high fat now and keeps his carbs much much lower. He ran into problems on high carb.

How do you know this? I didn’t think he’d been around for a long while

 

[EIRE24]

How do you know this? I didn’t think he’d been around for a long while

I speak with him on other platforms. His diet is very much based on saturated fat.

 

[Wagner83]

I speak with him on other platforms. His diet is very much based on saturated fat.

I thought it had changed again and he had an 'average' diet now with takeaway food and only two meals a day, juice throughout the day. He seemed to vastly benefit from the no-fat (vegetarian?) experiment but I think he then started to look way too lean, he was losing muscles. He switched to high fat and thrived but I don't think he did this for too long. I'm pretty sure he said quitting dairy relieved his sinusitis. The posts are in the relevant thread on the .org forums.

 

[EIRE24]

I thought it had changed again and he had an 'average' diet now with takeaway food and only two meals a day, juice throughout the day. He seemed to vastly benefit from the no-fat (vegetarian?) experiment but I think he then started to look way too lean, he was losing muscles. He switched to high fat and thrived but I don't think he did this for too long. I'm pretty sure he said quitting dairy relieved his sinusitis. The posts are in the relevant thread on the .org forums.

Nope. I speak with him daily. He eats a basically all animal products. Meat, eggs, butter and potatoes and fries made with Lard. Some kefir and yogurt. His diet is tasty and he has benefited massively from it. He actually thinks the low fat vegan thing destroyed his gut and high saturated fat low carb has fixed everything.

 

[Wagner83]

Nope. I speak with him daily. He eats a basically all animal products. Meat, eggs, butter and potatoes and fries made with Lard. Some kefir and yogurt. His diet is tasty and he has benefited massively from it. He actually thinks the low fat vegan thing destroyed his gut and high saturated fat low carb has fixed everything.

Some more information:
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

 

[EIRE24]

Some more information:
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

Yea wagner I dont think you are understanding what I am saying. He eats ANIMAL products only besides some potatoes fried in lard. He doesnt eat like that anymore. I see what he eats daily and its all meat and saturated fat. Nothing else. I dont need anymore info as I am updated daily.

 

[Wagner83]

Yea wagner I dont think you are understanding what I am saying. He eats ANIMAL products only besides some potatoes fried in lard. He doesnt eat like that anymore. I see what he eats daily and its all meat and saturated fat. Nothing else. I dont need anymore info as I am updated daily.

I'm not necessarily posting these links for you, I am showing how things have evolved, if he had tried that diet from the start it probably wouldn't have worked as he said himself. The vlf low animal products helped him and then he moved on to other things. This being said it will be interesting to see how he does in the future on this more or less ketogenic diet, some people seem to do fine.

 

[Glassy]

I appreciated them Wagner. I’ve just gone through that whole thread. I don’t necessarily agree with all his conclusions but I can definitely see the benefit to going high cal very low fat for a period of time (but not indefinitely). He seems to have said that it worked for him over that 4 month period but then he no longer benefitted from the approach.

It’s interesting to hear him reflect on his past choices and equally interesting to hear what he’s doing now. I think minimising endotoxin and inflammation while stimulating metabolism is a good approach. Keeping the orthorexia in check is probably also a good idea.

I’ve just come back from a 4 day work conference. Discovered it was harder to avoid PUFA when looking to minimise fat when you can’t control the food choices. I found it better to choose meat dominated dished and take in some saturated fat. Needless to say I’m feeling a little “off” from all the beer, meat and fat but glad I was able to minimise the PUFA intake.