Hungry Yet Gaining Weight

opson123

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I was in your position. What helped my digestion was a round Peat's flowers-of-sulfur protocol (in case it was SIBO) followed by making sure I ate a carrot every single day, away from other food. Also, I didn't do well on milk so I used an eggshell calcium supplement (I use a really good one from Amazon but now it's not available for some reason). The calcium is really important for digestion. Also, I would only eat bulky foods once a day (dinner). Now I have transit time of about 10 hours or less. I just can't seem to lose weight so take my words with a grain of salt (pun intended, I'm seeing nice improvement by having 10g of salt per day).

I also saw a boost in my health when I used high dose vitamin D (20k IUs) for a month. I'm assuming I was deficient or have some infection blocking absorption.
Calcium supplements tend to mess up my gut. Most supplements do. Do you just add salt to food or take salt capsules or just put a little in mouth throughout the day and let it dissolve?
 

Cirion

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The muscles aspect I can attest to. While I got fat, I did also get huge muscles. I've always had large legs from my powerlifting days (Squatting up to 400 lb), but now my legs are HUGE lol. 29" at last measurement. My arms grew a lot too, some of it fat, but a lot of it muscular. My strength has mostly remained despite retiring from powerlifting. I found out I can still do a pull up or two even though I weigh 280+ lb. I am proud of that lol. I didn't exercise at all yet remained strong. Even with 38" pants I completely fill them out =D I definitely like my lower body lol =P Shopping for comfortable jeans is a chore though!!! Thank God for flex fit =P
 

Kelj

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Kelj,

What u share in ur posts is absolutely mind blowing. It sounds very reasonable too.
I wonder, however, about these MORBIDLY OBESED people we can see everywhere in the world now. Haven,t they beem eating WITHOUT restrictions and for years? How come they never reach the point when the body gets repaired and starts to burn the fat? They only tend to get worse. How is this possible?
Obesity is caused by intermittently starving. I remember in one of Gary Taubes talks, he would bring up the example of research into the case of native American women and their children on a reservation in the 1920's. The children were obviously starving, but the mothers were obese. How was this possible? Gary's opinion is that it is ridiculous to suppose those mothers were sneaking Snickers bars behind the barn and depriving their children. I totally agree. Those mothers were consistently giving their children what little food they had, which was never enough. The children were consistently undereating, also called starving. The mothers were seriously depriving themselves on most days and occasionally eating a bit more than their suppressed metabolisms were using, which their bodies stored as fat. Their impoverished state and intermittent starvation continued for a long time, enabling them to become quite obese. Behind every morbidly obese person is years of dieting or the kind of poverty which creates an uncertain food supply rather than a consistently deprived one. There are many ways to get slim, only one of which is not starving. The kind of eating I advocate is not starving and results in slimness. All the rest are variations on starvation. There is, however, only one way to get fat. Create the kind of energy deficit which gets occasionally relieved by more calories than the suppressed metabolism is currently using. The more often you cycle through eat enough/don't eat enough, the more fat you will eventually accumulate. Everyone knows, but loves to ignore the fact that dieters who begin to eat like normal again put on more weight than they had before they began the last diet. They have a new, higher weight each time they begin the next diet. That is how morbid obesity occurs. If they ever did, really, eat unrestrictedly, the weight would eventually be lost.
I know what you are thinking....haven't I seen documentaries about morbidly obese people who eat enormous amounts of food? Yep. Fat is not metabolically inactive. To recover from an eating disorder when you are above normal BMI, requires more calories, not less. People who are as morbidly obese as the ones you are seeing in a documentary require even more food to lose weight sustainably than you are seeing there. Of course, the larger they are, the more challenging a sustainable recovery becomes. But, what choice is there for health?
Let me explain some of the ways intermittent starvation is happening: exercising before you eat in the morning, skipping breakfast, lunch, or dinner, ignoring hunger signals, intermittent fasting, going on a diet, going low carb (carb starvation is a thing), "being good" and eating a salad one day because you ate at the all-you-can-eat buffet the day before, "saving your appetite" for the dinner party, for any reason waiting for hours to eat when you are hungry, not eating after 7 p.m. every night, as a rule. These are the ways we convince our brain that the food supply is uncertain, and to store fat to keep us alive. If we convince ihe brain the food supply is abundant, there is no need for the fat storage.
 
OP
iPeat

iPeat

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Calcium supplements tend to mess up my gut. Most supplements do. Do you just add salt to food or take salt capsules or just put a little in mouth throughout the day and let it dissolve?

I might start a new thread about this when I get some definite results.

I recently watched this (twice):



In that lecture he, at one point, talks about 10x hypertonic solutions. I wasn't sure how make that so I had the forum help me out (thanks to outtherebrother for helping me with the math). Basically, I take a tsp of pickling salt and dissolve it 1/2 cup of water. That's roughly a 10x hypertonic solution (probably more like 11x). I drink that in the morning on an empty stomach and then again in the afternoon away from food. I don't wanna jump the gun but I was 1.5 lbs lighter today. I've only been doing this for 2 days. Before this I was just adding salt to food. Probably not enough salt.
 

Kelj

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I wonder this too. The only thing I can figure myself is like I say, I think most peoples' eating instincts are horribly broken. I know mine probably is, which is why I cannot rely upon it. The whole "eat without restrictions" style of eating sounds a lot like Matt Stone, but unfortunately most people who follow Matt stone just get fat. Absolutely, if you can recover your proper innate instincts I'd agree that's definitely ideal. But we must also remember that diet is only a part of the picture. I don't think it's possible to recover while living a high stress high octane life no matter how perfect your diet is, other factors must be addressed as well. On the other hand, eating freely is much more likely to succeed when the rest of your life is very low stress. We see that a lot with people who go on vacation and find they feel great even just eating whatever they feel like. Another poster here had a compromise - what he did was he did not want to give up pizza, bread, donuts etc... but he also didn't want to eat bad quality food - so he made his own. There are things you can do. Such as use unbleached flour (It turns out, most people are NOT gluten intolerant, they are intolerant to the horrible bleached flour that is used!) But the king Arthur brand apparently is safe. I bought some, but I haven't used it yet since I am not good at baking LOL but will try eventually.
I think we are going to feel less stress when we are well nourished. Feeling that we can enjoy abundance in our life frees our mind to see the plenty we have and the opportunities for true enjoyment of life which may, or may not involve more money. I find the money tangent not such a divergence, after all. Lol.
 

opson123

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I might start a new thread about this when I get some definite results.

I recently watched this (twice):



In that lecture he, at one point, talks about 10x hypertonic solutions. I wasn't sure how make that so I had the forum help me out (thanks to outtherebrother for helping me with the math). Basically, I take a tsp of pickling salt and dissolve it 1/2 cup of water. That's roughly a 10x hypertonic solution (probably more like 11x). I drink that in the morning on an empty stomach and then again in the afternoon away from food. I don't wanna jump the gun but I was 1.5 lbs lighter today. I've only been doing this for 2 days. Before this I was just adding salt to food. Probably not enough salt.

Thanks!
 
OP
iPeat

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No problem. Let me know if it helps. So far it's making me feel better after I drink it, which I wasn't expecting. I'll probably start a thread on it because I don't really see anyone mentioning it and it may be helpful to others.
 

redsun

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Yes, it doesn't really matter what I eat, the resulting discomfort or pain is almost the same. There are some differences in symptoms depending on the food, but overall I always feel bad. Thanks anyway.

B-vitamins, and zinc can help increase stomach acid secretion as well as salt. You may want to consider Betaine HCl if your stomach acid production is poor. Having poor stomach acid will lead to deficiencies if it hasnt already.
 

opson123

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Let me explain some of the ways intermittent starvation is happening: exercising before you eat in the morning, skipping breakfast, lunch, or dinner, ignoring hunger signals, intermittent fasting, going on a diet, going low carb (carb starvation is a thing), "being good" and eating a salad one day because you ate at the all-you-can-eat buffet the day before, "saving your appetite" for the dinner party, for any reason waiting for hours to eat when you are hungry, not eating after 7 p.m. every night, as a rule. These are the ways we convince our brain that the food supply is uncertain, and to store fat to keep us alive. If we convince ihe brain the food supply is abundant, there is no need for the fat storage.
Haha, this is exactly what wrecked my health and gut. Paired with exercise. I started having 247 diarrhea, was so tired walking up the stairs felt like a marathon. I crashed and never recovered.

The funny thing is I did all that, because I wanted to be healthier. I had no excess fat or gut issues, I still don't have fat, but now my gut is a mess, I have mental health issues and I'm exhausted. I was avoiding sugar though, so I got that part right. Right?
 

Kelj

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Haha, this is exactly what wrecked my health and gut. Paired with exercise. I started having 247 diarrhea, was so tired walking up the stairs felt like a marathon. I crashed and never recovered.

The funny thing is I did all that, because I wanted to be healthier. I had no excess fat or gut issues, I still don't have fat, but now my gut is a mess, I have mental health issues and I'm exhausted. I was avoiding sugar though, so I got that part right. Right?
Thinking that avoiding sugar would make me slim and healthy was the catalyst for all the badness that happened. Sugar healed it all.
 

Vinny

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Let me explain some of the ways intermittent starvation is happening: exercising before you eat in the morning, skipping breakfast, lunch, or dinner, ignoring hunger signals, intermittent fasting, going on a diet, going low carb (carb starvation is a thing), "being good" and eating a salad one day because you ate at the all-you-can-eat buffet the day before, "saving your appetite" for the dinner party, for any reason waiting for hours to eat when you are hungry, not eating after 7 p.m. every night, as a rule. These are the ways we convince our brain that the food supply is uncertain, and to store fat to keep us alive. If we convince ihe brain the food supply is abundant, there is no need for the fat storage.
Kelj,

I understand your point and it sounds very logical, but I still see some unresolved issues.

Basically, you say that these morbidly obese people somehow starve themselves, and this is the leading cause of their situation, correct?
Ok. For the past 10 years I`ve been dealing predominantly with English holiday tourists.
As you can guess, a huge number of them are fat. But I`d like to point a specific group, which is the obese youngsters, most of them, for unknown for me reasons, being girls.
I`d agree, that the older ones might have tried, at some point, or more than once, some kind of a stupid diet, that would have eventually destroyed their capability to burn fat. But, I would strongly disagree that those attempts correspond to the the young.
Kelj, they don`t even know what the word "diet" means, or if they do and you mention it, they`ll probably laugh at your face. Calorie restriction - What...? It`s so unlikely they care about their shape and weight, that I`d never believe it! The fact is that, they`re soooo relaxed and congruent, that they don`t give a dime about getting fit, whatever the reason is.
So, they really DO eat without restrictions. Why they don`t get lean?


You know, I really want that what you say works for everyone.
I manage to get my temps and pulse up with A LOT of food, which makes me really happy, because nothing else worked so well so far. But, I`m getting fat..... I`ve always struggled to keep my weight under control, but now I`m fatter then ever.... and this is quite concerning for me. What, if I reach, eventually, a point of no return? What if I got so screwed up, that I won`t be able to go back? I`m now about 20 pounds more. What if I got 80 more and can`t get rid of them? Where is the guarantee that won`t happen?

EDIT
By "young" I mean teens/late teens, not children
 
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LUH 3417

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Kelj,

I understand your point and it sounds very logical, but I still see some unresolved issues.

Basically, you say that these morbidly obese people somehow starve themselves, and this is the leading cause of their situation, correct?
Ok. For the past 10 years I`ve been dealing predominantly with English holiday tourists.
As you can guess, a huge number of them are fat. But I`d like to point a specific group, which is the obese youngsters, most of them, for unknown for me reasons, being girls.
I`d agree, that the older ones might have tried, at some point, or more than once, some kind of a stupid diet, that would have eventually destroyed their capability to burn fat. But, I would strongly disagree that those attempts correspond to the the young.
Kelj, they don`t even know what the word "diet" means, or if they do and you mention it, they`ll probably laugh at your face. Calorie restriction - What...? It`s so unlikely they care about their shape and weight, that I`d never believe it! The fact is that, they`re soooo relaxed and congruent, that they don`t give a dime about getting fit, whatever the reason is.
So, they really DO eat without restrictions. Why they don`t get lean?


You know, I really want that what you say works for everyone.
I manage to get my temps and pulse up with A LOT of food, which makes me really happy, because nothing else worked so well so far. But, I`m getting fat..... I`ve always struggled to keep my weight under control, but now I`m fatter then ever.... and this is quite concerning for me. What, if I reach, eventually, a point of no return? What if I got so screwed up, that I won`t be able to go back? I`m now about 20 pounds more. What if I got 80 more and can`t get rid of them? Where is the guarantee that won`t happen?
A little off topic but a noteable study about starvation during pregnancy and obesity later in life for offspring conceived during famine

The Dutch Hunger Winter and the developmental origins of health and disease
 

somuch4food

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Kelj,

I understand your point and it sounds very logical, but I still see some unresolved issues.

Basically, you say that these morbidly obese people somehow starve themselves, and this is the leading cause of their situation, correct?
Ok. For the past 10 years I`ve been dealing predominantly with English holiday tourists.
As you can guess, a huge number of them are fat. But I`d like to point a specific group, which is the obese youngsters, most of them, for unknown for me reasons, being girls.
I`d agree, that the older ones might have tried, at some point, or more than once, some kind of a stupid diet, that would have eventually destroyed their capability to burn fat. But, I would strongly disagree that those attempts correspond to the the young.
Kelj, they don`t even know what the word "diet" means, or if they do and you mention it, they`ll probably laugh at your face. Calorie restriction - What...? It`s so unlikely they care about their shape and weight, that I`d never believe it! The fact is that, they`re soooo relaxed and congruent, that they don`t give a dime about getting fit, whatever the reason is.
So, they really DO eat without restrictions. Why they don`t get lean?


You know, I really want that what you say works for everyone.
I manage to get my temps and pulse up with A LOT of food, which makes me really happy, because nothing else worked so well so far. But, I`m getting fat..... I`ve always struggled to keep my weight under control, but now I`m fatter then ever.... and this is quite concerning for me. What, if I reach, eventually, a point of no return? What if I got so screwed up, that I won`t be able to go back? I`m now about 20 pounds more. What if I got 80 more and can`t get rid of them? Where is the guarantee that won`t happen?

I'm not too sure children nowadays really follow their inner instincts. I'm also certain that as many as 50% of those obese children know about diet and caloric restriction. They have access to the Internet and media and parents probably control a good part of their diet.

I know I'm guilty of doing it with my kid. I won't force him to eat something, but I try to influence his choices towards something I think is better for him. If he wants candy all the time, I propose yogourt, cheese or maybe applesauce to vary his diet. Children are highly susceptible to packaged foods since they are designed to be addictive. Children are not taught to use their intuition, they often follow external influence from parents, peers and marketing.

That said I understand your anxiety about it working or not. You can't be sure of it. The only way is to look at the whole picture on longer periods. Are you feelng better than 1 month ago despite the weight? Or do you feel worse and worse? You have to make the difference between feel good short term with adrenaline and feel good low stress hormone. Caloric restriction is never an option in my opinion. You can surrender control to your body like @Kelj or retake control and try to find an eating pattern that works for you. Enough calories is important though.
 

Kelj

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Kelj,

I understand your point and it sounds very logical, but I still see some unresolved issues.

Basically, you say that these morbidly obese people somehow starve themselves, and this is the leading cause of their situation, correct?
Ok. For the past 10 years I`ve been dealing predominantly with English holiday tourists.
As you can guess, a huge number of them are fat. But I`d like to point a specific group, which is the obese youngsters, most of them, for unknown for me reasons, being girls.
I`d agree, that the older ones might have tried, at some point, or more than once, some kind of a stupid diet, that would have eventually destroyed their capability to burn fat. But, I would strongly disagree that those attempts correspond to the the young.
Kelj, they don`t even know what the word "diet" means, or if they do and you mention it, they`ll probably laugh at your face. Calorie restriction - What...? It`s so unlikely they care about their shape and weight, that I`d never believe it! The fact is that, they`re soooo relaxed and congruent, that they don`t give a dime about getting fit, whatever the reason is.
So, they really DO eat without restrictions. Why they don`t get lean?


You know, I really want that what you say works for everyone.
I manage to get my temps and pulse up with A LOT of food, which makes me really happy, because nothing else worked so well so far. But, I`m getting fat..... I`ve always struggled to keep my weight under control, but now I`m fatter then ever.... and this is quite concerning for me. What, if I reach, eventually, a point of no return? What if I got so screwed up, that I won`t be able to go back? I`m now about 20 pounds more. What if I got 80 more and can`t get rid of them? Where is the guarantee that won`t happen?
I see the kids, too. Coincidentally, I have an English person in my household and visit relatives in England frequently. We were just talking about this subject, today, of being a child in England. The English mother of this person would direct his food selection regularly. It was feared this person was too pudgy. All homemade recipes for desserts would be made with the sugar amount cut in half. When I visit there, I have to work really hard and take (belligerant, I'm sorry to say) action to make sure I get enough to eat. There is a social pressure, different from the U.S., where I live, around eating. I may be the only one who supplies myself with a sandwich for a long drive, but I don't dare eat this sandwich unless I first offer some of it to everyone else in the car. They seem to feel obliged to take some, too. The only way I can keep myself fed is to make plenty for everyone, over their protests that they don't need any. In England, I feel more people consistently starve rather than intermittently starve, which is more common in the U.S. because we don't have this "if one person is eating everyone else must eat, too" cultural pressure. Of course, these are generalizations and there are exceptions on both sides of the Atlantic.
At younger and younger ages, children are influenced by the media. I have heard five- year -olds talking about dieting and the Russian doctor Natasha Campbell-McBride works with a whole lot of very young children in Scotland who have severely disordered eating. If a child has a tendency toward a little roundness when they are young, everyone from parents to doctors start to try to get that child to "eat less and exercise more". I know many here in the states who have only gotten fatter as more and more control is attempted over their eating.
Also, the regularity of meal times has been severely compromised in recent decades. Everyone is intermittently eating. Kids are sent to school without breakfast and even if there is a breakfast served at school, do they like it? Are they eating it? Parents used to simply show kids how to eat by putting a meal on the table at least twice a day, with school lunch being a proper meal, too. Someone used to notice if you routinely didn't eat lunch and would be concerned as to the reason. Snacks were encouraged. There was always a milk snack at school, at the very least. One child I know was told the snack that he brought from home was too high fat, by his teacher, and therefore not appropriate.
Another thing I have noticed is the distraction, from eating, of video games. The child has to pause the game to go eat, and they can sit playing for hours without responding to their hunger signals.
Deprivation, for even a day, followed by eating more than the suppressed metabolism is currently using will always cause fat storage.
Here is your guarantee, Vinny: the body is rational. It is only rational to store fat when the food supply is shaky. It would love to store fat when the food supply is consistently scarce, too, but it is not possible. There is never any excess to play with. It is not rational for the body to retain excess fat when the environment (your personal choice to make or not, hopefully...no real famine or food insecurity going on) is providing an abundance. There is nothing broken about the body protecting you from famine. That is a body working exactly right. Why wouldn't it continue to work exactly right? Are wild animals eating constantly and freely ever obese? Never. They are the size they should be. That only changes when humans are in charge of their feeding. All bodies work the way I am describing. You will put on weight if you have been eating under your body's true needs, but you will also lose it. There is no point of no return. I, for one, am happy that I broke free from the miserable manipulation and worry over weight, the scales and body checking, the closet full of clothes that don't fit anymore and the disappointment when I end a horrible period of deprivation (diet) only to very quickly weigh more than I did before I began it. Very often, the only way out of a situation is through.
 

Vinny

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Are you feelng better than 1 month ago despite the weight?
Despite the weight, I do feel better, but fat+happy is not an option long term. There should be another way.
I would even swallow somehow the fat gain if I knew in advance I won`t become morbidly obese, but there`s no way to look into the future.
 

Ron J

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@Kelj & @Vinny
Instead of storing fat, what if you made your body create muscle? It would seem demanding if the goal is to fix damage from bad long term dietary choices, but what if you did most of the work via drugs/supplements? If you reduce all stressors that result in tissue degradation, such as cortisol, wouldn't the body create more muscle tissue?
 

somuch4food

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Despite the weight, I do feel better, but fat+happy is not an option long term. There should be another way.
I would even swallow somehow the fat gain if I knew in advance I won`t become morbidly obese, but there`s no way to look into the future.

The way I see it fat + happy is way better than slim + miserable. To reassure you, I remember a thread that stated that overweight people live longer. Not morbidly obese obviously, but some fat is protective.

@Kelj & @Vinny
Instead of storing fat, what if you made your body create muscle? It would seem demanding if the goal is to fix damage from bad long term dietary choices, but what if you did most of the work via drugs/supplements? If you reduce all stressors that result in tissue degradation, such as cortisol, wouldn't the body create more muscle tissue?

That's a good theory, but one would have to be willing to experiment with this and you don't know the outcome.

Another point that can help and was discussed in another thread is separating fatty meals from carbs meals.
 

Kelj

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I wish it was possible to override your brain's protective measures and not gain fat, but the only way to do that is live in a famine. Of course, that is what we were doing before, otherwise we wouldn't have put on weight when we began to eat enough. Any attempt to further manipulate is only kicking the can down the road. You absolutely will regain muscle you lost while restricting. But, it is still a kind of restriction to do keto and carb loading and anything else people do to manipulate fat to muscle ratio, other than let the body do its repairs to regain normal metabolism and normal fat deposition with the abundance of energy only you can give it. It is scary. We were restricting because we didn't want to gain fat. But, we are also here, on the Ray Peat forum, because we want to be well. There are others you can find on You Tube talking about this, for reassurance. Tabitha Farrer, and Kayla Rose Kotecki are the two who have it right, in my view. The people who get to the other side quickly, are the ones who just eat and stop trying to make a bargain with the devil at the crossroads. The fat gained will be lost again and never come back as long as you keep eating everything you want, every day.
 

Kelj

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A little off topic but a noteable study about starvation during pregnancy and obesity later in life for offspring conceived during famine

The Dutch Hunger Winter and the developmental origins of health and disease
There are people whose bodies turn on protective mechanisms more easily. These are people who have been exposed in the past to the kinds of environments that have required these emergency mechanisms. Exposure, in the womb, to starvation has its effects. That doesn't mean the person who experienced that has to trigger a future fat gain episode unless they are again in a famine. If they always eat what their body wants, they have no need for extra fat storage.
 

Cirion

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If you want to eat a lot and minimize the fat gain just eat low fat. That's my strategy. Freely eating fat ad-libidum is what made me gain 90 lbs. Carbs in the absence of dietary fat are not very fattening by comparison, and are generally what our body prefers anyway. Vinny, please don't make the same mistake I did. I just continued to ate as much as I wanted including dietary fat and gained and gained and gained and it literally would never have stopped. The idea that weight gain will stop is always a nice thing, but simply doesn't apply to everyone. At least not while eating a dietary fat rich diet** Fats provide calories, which I can agree are useful in recovery, but fats often make your insulin resistance worse, especially in conjunction with high carb, which further damages metabolic syndrome. The randle cycle absolutely damages your body and simply does not promote healing, no one can convince me it does now.

You are just irritating your gut and body by eating too much. Absolutely eat as much as your body can process and handle, but excess food just causes endotoxin, serotonin, estrogen increases which do NOT do you any favors. Furthermore, the benefits I perceived started to get worse. If I was healing I would have started to feel better, but I just felt worse - and almost 100 lb heavier. Sleep apnea got worse, ability to wake up and stay awake got worse, muscle fatigue got worse, fitness got significantly worse. No thanks. I can see how a SMALL amount of weight gain isn't the worst thing, but the fact is if you're gaining 50-100 lb, you're doing something wrong (Like me with mixing fats and sugars).
 
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