Hungry Yet Gaining Weight

[Kelj]

I ate as many fats as my body wanted. As Ray says: "Fat oxidation is suppressed by eating enough sugar". The liver will then detoxify fat in the liver and eliminate through the bowel. ( In reality, my body also oxidized fat, at the brain's discretion). I gained 50 pounds and then lost it all while continuing to eat the fat and sugar my body wanted. I had negative -feeling symptoms of pain and bloating and fatigue, but I continued to improve (because those symptoms ARE the body healing). Now, I have none of those things. Definitely, giving up on it, too soon, would have left me stuck with the excess weight gain. Just eat the way you want to eat for the rest of your life and relax about recovery.

 

[Cirion]

I ate as many fats as my body wanted. As Ray says: "Fat oxidation is suppressed by eating enough sugar". The liver will then detoxify fat in the liver and eliminate through the bowel. ( In reality, my body also oxidized fat, at the brain's discretion). I gained 50 pounds and then lost it all while continuing to eat the fat and sugar my body wanted. I had negative -feeling symptoms of pain and bloating and fatigue, but I continued to improve (because those symptoms ARE the body healing). Now, I have none of those things. Definitely, giving up on it, too soon, would have left me stuck with the excess weight gain. Just eat the way you want to eat for the rest of your life and relax about recovery.

It's really awesome it worked for you. But why are almost everyone eating matt stone-esque style eating getting and staying fat then? From what I heard, even matt stone himself basically gave up on his own style of eating since it didn't work for him either. And he ate that way for years. I have no interest in being a 300-400 pound fattie. I have to disagree that getting sleep apnea, no energy, worsening sleep etc is healing symptoms. To be honest your story sounds like a complete outlier.

We can agree that sugar and carbs are the answer, but no one can convince me that dietary fat is necessary especially if you're already fat. The better thing to do is heal without getting fat, then you don't have to deal with estrogen, serotonin, sleep apnea, and all that mess. Is it possible to heal while getting fat? Probably, since you showed it's possible, but I don't think it's the ideal path to healing. Extreme weight gain comes with too many of its own problems. Extreme weight gain is an adaption to stress, and that stress is not always simple caloric restriction (But agreed it can be) - it is also response to inflammation (Randle cycle), environmental stressors, excessive food intake, estrogens/tryptophan/serotonin, endotoxin, etcetera. Food can not make all your stressors go away. For me, I'd rather focus on the stressors like endotoxin, environmental stress while eating a MODERATE food intake (not restricted, not excessive)

My weight has dropped four days in a row now eating around 3200-3300 calories a day which is a perfectly reasonable caloric intake for me being mostly sedentary, it's not restrictive and it's not excessive. And most of it is carbohydrates.

Because stress is a HOLISTIC problem with food being but one piece of the puzzle, that's why using food as the only solution simply does not work. But, agreed that caloric restriction is going to add stress. But excessive food intake, while it does decrease stress in the moment, can not over-come other environmental stressors and extremely excessive food intake is just as dangerous as too little.

 

[opson123]

@Kelj

Drinking liquids always result in getting instantly bloated, not gut bloat that is trapped gas, but bloat from the water content. The only way to combat this is adding a lot of white sugar, something like 20g+ for every 100ml liquid. This helps with the water bloat, but when I drink a lot and that sugar reaches a certain part in the gut, I get 9 months pregnant bloated which is even more uncomfortable than the water bloat. Without the sugar I still get trapped gas bloated, but it's only like 6 or 7 months pregnant bloated. I get bloated like this from other carbs too.

The bloat is just so uncomfortable that it's impossible to ignore. If I poked my gut with a knife, my stomach would deflate like a popped balloon. Do you think I should still just ignore this and push through?

 

[Kelj]

It's really awesome it worked for you. But why are almost everyone eating matt stone-esque style eating getting and staying fat then? From what I heard, even matt stone himself basically gave up on his own style of eating since it didn't work for him either. And he ate that way for years. I have no interest in being a 300-400 pound fattie. I have to disagree that getting sleep apnea, no energy, worsening sleep etc is healing symptoms.

If you read the experiences of others, such as Kayla Rose Kotecki, of Damn the Diets, and the edinstitute website, you will see that these experiences are common and known. I've often wondered what Matt was doing, though I think he eventually did start to eat the way I am describing and find the "unicorn" of the "metabolic zone", lol. It makes sense to me that he was not actually letting his body decide on amount, type and timing of food, but forcing it, and maybe getting scared of the weight gain and engaging in some restriction. I know he admired and posted about Billy Craig's 6000 calorie a day experiment which resulted in Billy losing weight, but Matt always sounded somewhat mystified by it, so I don't think he was doing what Billy did until later when he really did lose the weight. In an article, Matt wondered why the people in Central America are so fat. I suspect it is because so many have food insecurity due to poverty. If Matt didn't realize that, it makes me think he didn't understand the importance of consistency and constancy in his own diet. In that article, he does have a subheading called Lack of Food where he talks about the famine cycle in those countries and the incursion of the diet mentality in recent years. The other ideas he offers make me think he didn't or doesn't realize the only reason people store fat is because of past famine or famine-like eating followed by even a day of more calories.
It makes sense to me that if your body isn't asking for fat, don't eat it. But, if you crave it, ever, I think it would be a setback not to eat it. I ate it, but didn't track it, so I have no idea how the ratios break down, but I recovered anyway.
Billy Craig lost weight eating 6000 calories of bagels, bread, cheese spreads, cereal, and prepackaged meals, and the like, as he recounts on 180 degree health.
What I know is, we all want to be healthy and a normal weight. We want to turn around declining health. I would be pretty selfish if I didn't share how I achieved those things.

 

[Kelj]

@Kelj

Drinking liquids always result in getting instantly bloated, not gut bloat that is trapped gas, but bloat from the water content. The only way to combat this is adding a lot of white sugar, something like 20g+ for every 100ml liquid. This helps with the water bloat, but when I drink a lot and that sugar reaches a certain part in the gut, I get 9 months pregnant bloated which is even more uncomfortable than the water bloat. Without the sugar I still get trapped gas bloated, but it's only like 6 or 7 months pregnant bloated. I get bloated like this from other carbs too.

The bloat is just so uncomfortable that it's impossible to ignore. If I poked my gut with a knife, my stomach would deflate like a popped balloon. Do you think I should still just ignore this and push through?

Tummy Troubles
"Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that much of the gastrointestinal distress that is monstrously present for those with active eating disorders, actually resolves with aggressive re-feeding tactics. 25,26,27,28,29

If you think about it in a mechanical way, what would likely (in the absence of obstructions or inflammatory conditions such as Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis) resolve constipation, gastroparesis, anorectal dysfunction and colonic inertia? Enough energy needs to be available to the body for it to manage repairs to the enteric (gut) nervous system and restore the gut’s microbiotic balance.

If a patient has been bed ridden for some time due to severe illness, the muscles may not even support her swinging her legs to the side of the bed. Resolving muscle atrophy is not achieved by avoiding use of those muscles and the same holds true for gastrointestinal atrophy as well.

Reintroducing all the foods that are currently absent from the diet as well as upping the calorie intake and eating constantly is the best prescription for the myriad gastrointestinal symptoms that appear and persist with chronic energy deficiencies.

Please note all the necessary caveats to that re-feeding effort: that you do not have diagnosed inflammatory conditions such as Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis; neuropathic or myopathic disease; biopsy-confirmed celiac disease; any food allergy that suggests severity that may lead to anaphylactic shock; any obstruction, or risk of obstruction in the GI tract; and/or any other diagnosed medical condition that might increase your risk of mortality should you begin to reintroduce macronutrients that are currently off limits.

If you and your medical professionals are comfortable that there is nothing life threatening at hand to reintroduce foods, then work to reintroduce everything in rotation and keep a food/symptom journal. But, critically, rate the symptom severity as well.

Honestly, this approach is not about comfort. It is about weighing up short-term discomfort against long-term quality (and length) of life benefits.

When a patient is encouraged to get up out of bed immediately after knee surgery, it is no comfortable thing— nor are the rehabilitation and physiotherapy treatments either.

The same is true for a patient going through exposure and response prevention therapy to deal with a phobia of flying. The patient is encouraged to rate her anxiety one through ten and most will absolutely feel at a “15” as they try to approach rather than avoid their identified threat (in this case flying).

Being bloated, constipated, exhausted and in pain is just plain miserable. And all those symptoms are part and parcel of the recovery process – reintroducing foods, eating more food and eating constantly.

Recovery is rehabilitation and it is not an asymptomatic ride that’s for sure."

I completely concur with this article, that you must consult your doctor to eliminate the possibility of a condition that requires avoidance of a particular food.
What I can say is, it is common to all who have had disordered eating to bloat in recovery. I had an allergy to dairy and couldn't eat gluten when I started, but I eat those things every day, now, without bloating and being perfectly well. The bloating eventually went away and a pair of sweat pants eased the journey.

 

[Cirion]

I appreciate the responses, I definitely always enjoy reading success stories from other people, and I agree we all want to be healthy and normal weight. I just can't get on board with some of the philosophies of extreme over-eating, especially that of dietary fat.

I am probably beating a dead horse at this point lol but I can see some merit in CARBOHYDRATE over-feeding, but not fat over-feeding. As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread even, I have had days where I ate like 1000-1200g of carbs and lost weight the next day. Never when the overfeeding was from fats though. Eating fats CONSISTENTLY makes me gain weight. This is an important distinguishment. Back when I over-ate dietary fat like 200+ gram of fat a day, that's how I got fat. You can dramatically reduce the pain (weight gain, insulin resistance, all that) by controlling fat intake but letting yourself go wild with carbs. I can absolutely see, again, how energy (calorie) overfeeding can be helpful, but again not from fats--carbs are the superior fuel source. I also think a lot of pain can be avoided by not eating fortified, enriched foods. The only reason (IMO) that fats can seem beneficial is that they are an easy way to increase calories, but carbohydrates are superior in every way, though I admit it can be difficult to eat re-feeding level calories from just carbs, it can be done.

Now, we do burn fat in our muscles at rest, but we also have a huge store of body fat, especially when fat, so I see zero reason to consume it until a lean body is achieved. Yeah it'll suck at first, since a lot of stored fat is PUFA, but you have to get rid of it sooner or later. The difference from the mainstream is I now promote a FAT deficit diet, not a CALORIC deficit diet. Eat a fat deficient but carbohydrate surplus diet. That's my strategy now. What this does theoretically is give you the best of both worlds. A surplus-refeeding level of carbohydrates which are anabolic and a deficit of fats to burn body-fat and stored pufas.

I think as long as one follows the core peat principles - very low pufa, low tryptophan, low-ish fat overall, sugar, carbs, eating quality protein, gelatin, salt, etc... Then you can go crazy with little fear for extreme fat gain. Making sure you don't go excessively hungry like you say while doing so. With carb over-eating you can eat way more calories and not gain weight. As ray peat has accurately said, carbs (especially sugars) are less fattening on a per calorie basis that any other macronutrient and this, I admit, has indeed proven true in my experience.

 

[Ms.Orchid]

@Kelj
I'm fascinated by your healing experience, and envious, to boot!
A thought, though... Wouldn't someone's age at the time of recovering affect the body's ability to lose the weight gained? Matt Stone and others seem to think that the younger you are, the more likely you are to drop the gained weight...and the older you are, the less likely that is to happen. A frightening proposition for those of us skewed towards the "older" side.

 

[Kelj]

I appreciate the responses, I definitely always enjoy reading success stories from other people, and I agree we all want to be healthy and normal weight. I just can't get on board with some of the philosophies of extreme over-eating, especially that of dietary fat.

I am probably beating a dead horse at this point lol but I can see some merit in CARBOHYDRATE over-feeding, but not fat over-feeding. As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread even, I have had days where I ate like 1000-1200g of carbs and lost weight the next day. Never when the overfeeding was from fats though. Eating fats CONSISTENTLY makes me gain weight. This is an important distinguishment. Back when I over-ate dietary fat like 200+ gram of fat a day, that's how I got fat. You can dramatically reduce the pain (weight gain, insulin resistance, all that) by controlling fat intake but letting yourself go wild with carbs. I can absolutely see, again, how energy (calorie) overfeeding can be helpful, but again not from fats--carbs are the superior fuel source. I also think a lot of pain can be avoided by not eating fortified, enriched foods. The only reason (IMO) that fats can seem beneficial is that they are an easy way to increase calories, but carbohydrates are superior in every way, though I admit it can be difficult to eat re-feeding level calories from just carbs, it can be done.

Now, we do burn fat in our muscles at rest, but we also have a huge store of body fat, especially when fat, so I see zero reason to consume it until a lean body is achieved. Yeah it'll suck at first, since a lot of stored fat is PUFA, but you have to get rid of it sooner or later.

I think as long as one follows the core peat principles - very low pufa, low tryptophan, low-ish fat overall, sugar, carbs, eating quality protein, gelatin, salt, etc... Then you can go crazy with little fear for extreme fat gain. Making sure you don't go excessively hungry like you say while doing so. With carb over-eating you can eat way more calories and not gain weight. As ray peat has accurately said, carbs (especially sugars) are less fattening on a per calorie basis that any other macronutrient and this, I admit, has indeed proven true in my experience.

I'm going to be a stickler on what I've actually said. I've never talked about extreme overeating or over feeding. It is not extreme or overdoing it when your body needs it. Any rule about how much the body needs on any given day is guesswork. Only the body knows what's going on and what it needs.

 

[Cirion]

I guess then our main disagreement is whether dietary fat is needed while refeeding. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, I do tend to mostly agree with all the other points.
Good discussion though!

 

[Kelj]

I guess then our main disagreement is whether dietary fat is needed while refeeding. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, I do tend to mostly agree with all the other points.
Good discussion though!

I appreciate you and your willingness to engage, so much!

 

[Kelj]

@Kelj
I'm fascinated by your healing experience, and envious, to boot!
A thought, though... Wouldn't someone's age at the time of recovering affect the body's ability to lose the weight gained? Matt Stone and others seem to think that the younger you are, the more likely you are to drop the gained weight...and the older you are, the less likely that is to happen. A frightening proposition for those of us skewed towards the "older" side.

Age-ism is a thing, so I'll just say I've been studying nutrition for over 35 years. I am definitely proof of recovery at any age. Take courage.

 

[somuch4food]

I think eating for the wrong reasons was what created my health issues. I never restricted calories until recently and that experiment clearly failed since my health took a clear nose dive. In the past, I did force myself to finish my plate, push my appetite to eat dessert because it was offered, eat out of habit without actually being hungry, eat when stressed out instead of addressing the issue at hand, eat more of something I didn't truly enjoy because it's "healthier".

 

[Ms.Orchid]

Age-ism is a thing, so I'll just say I've been studying nutrition for over 35 years. I am definitely proof of recovery at any age. Take courage.

Thank you!

 

[LUH 3417]

I guess then our main disagreement is whether dietary fat is needed while refeeding. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, I do tend to mostly agree with all the other points.
Good discussion though!

I’m wondering what your thoughts are on water weight. Apparently 16% of body mass is interstitial fluid. If 1L of fluid is 2.2 lbs then that could equal a lot of weight if you’re retaining water. Does fat make us retain water? Why can’t we just eat what we want and expel the excess interstitial fluid volume? Is it there to protect the organs, if so then from what? I had an experience of going to a Chinese herbalist and dropping 10lbs in a month. It all came back when I stopped taking the herbs but I remember feeling like it was just water weight that I had shed. Almost like I was a towel being wrung out.

 

[Cirion]

I’m wondering what your thoughts are on water weight. Apparently 16% of body mass is interstitial fluid. If 1L of fluid is 2.2 lbs then that could equal a lot of weight if you’re retaining water. Does fat make us retain water? Why can’t we just eat what we want and expel the excess interstitial fluid volume? Is it there to protect the organs, if so then from what? I had an experience of going to a Chinese herbalist and dropping 10lbs in a month. It all came back when I stopped taking the herbs but I remember feeling like it was just water weight that I had shed. Almost like I was a towel being wrung out.

To put it simply, excess water weight gain is a result of some stress/estrogen/serotonin/endotoxin generally. It's somewhat of a chicken or the egg debate because when cells are hyper-hydrated, it signals the body to gain mass (fat), and being fat tends to add stress and result in further hyper-hydration. I think Ray speaks to this to a degree. So if you're really bloated, it usually means you are estrogen dominant. You can eat what you want as long as the food isn't stressful to you in some form or fashion. Yeah the excess water gain, from what I understand, is there to protect against inflammation/stress - it's an adaption, protecting/buffering against excess body acidity. It is true a lot of times when getting fat, a lot of that weight is actually water and not fat per-se. That's good news in a way, it means you can quickly lose a good portion of weight you've gained, before slowing down because the latter half is solid fat mass.

Expelling the excess water weight without removing the stressor that caused the water weight is akin to taking statin drugs. It does not fix the root problems. It can even be quite dangerous. A friend of my moms' died after dialysis.

 

[opson123]

Tummy Troubles
"Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that much of the gastrointestinal distress that is monstrously present for those with active eating disorders, actually resolves with aggressive re-feeding tactics. 25,26,27,28,29

If you think about it in a mechanical way, what would likely (in the absence of obstructions or inflammatory conditions such as Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis) resolve constipation, gastroparesis, anorectal dysfunction and colonic inertia? Enough energy needs to be available to the body for it to manage repairs to the enteric (gut) nervous system and restore the gut’s microbiotic balance.

If a patient has been bed ridden for some time due to severe illness, the muscles may not even support her swinging her legs to the side of the bed. Resolving muscle atrophy is not achieved by avoiding use of those muscles and the same holds true for gastrointestinal atrophy as well.

Reintroducing all the foods that are currently absent from the diet as well as upping the calorie intake and eating constantly is the best prescription for the myriad gastrointestinal symptoms that appear and persist with chronic energy deficiencies.

Please note all the necessary caveats to that re-feeding effort: that you do not have diagnosed inflammatory conditions such as Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis; neuropathic or myopathic disease; biopsy-confirmed celiac disease; any food allergy that suggests severity that may lead to anaphylactic shock; any obstruction, or risk of obstruction in the GI tract; and/or any other diagnosed medical condition that might increase your risk of mortality should you begin to reintroduce macronutrients that are currently off limits.

If you and your medical professionals are comfortable that there is nothing life threatening at hand to reintroduce foods, then work to reintroduce everything in rotation and keep a food/symptom journal. But, critically, rate the symptom severity as well.

Honestly, this approach is not about comfort. It is about weighing up short-term discomfort against long-term quality (and length) of life benefits.

When a patient is encouraged to get up out of bed immediately after knee surgery, it is no comfortable thing— nor are the rehabilitation and physiotherapy treatments either.

The same is true for a patient going through exposure and response prevention therapy to deal with a phobia of flying. The patient is encouraged to rate her anxiety one through ten and most will absolutely feel at a “15” as they try to approach rather than avoid their identified threat (in this case flying).

Being bloated, constipated, exhausted and in pain is just plain miserable. And all those symptoms are part and parcel of the recovery process – reintroducing foods, eating more food and eating constantly.

Recovery is rehabilitation and it is not an asymptomatic ride that’s for sure."

I completely concur with this article, that you must consult your doctor to eliminate the possibility of a condition that requires avoidance of a particular food.
What I can say is, it is common to all who have had disordered eating to bloat in recovery. I had an allergy to dairy and couldn't eat gluten when I started, but I eat those things every day, now, without bloating and being perfectly well. The bloating eventually went away and a pair of sweat pants eased the journey.

Thanks!

 

[LUH 3417]

To put it simply, excess water weight gain is a result of some stress/estrogen/serotonin/endotoxin generally. It's somewhat of a chicken or the egg debate because when cells are hyper-hydrated, it signals the body to gain mass (fat), and being fat tends to add stress and result in further hyper-hydration. I think Ray speaks to this to a degree. So if you're really bloated, it usually means you are estrogen dominant. You can eat what you want as long as the food isn't stressful to you in some form or fashion. Yeah the excess water gain, from what I understand, is there to protect against inflammation/stress - it's an adaption, protecting/buffering against excess body acidity. It is true a lot of times when getting fat, a lot of that weight is actually water and not fat per-se. That's good news in a way, it means you can quickly lose a good portion of weight you've gained, before slowing down because the latter half is solid fat mass.

But why can’t we just use electrolytes to shift the excess fluid out of the system? I mean how complicated can it be. Is the body holding onto the water because of the stress of injury from something being unleashed inside the body that the liver and kidney are not prepared to detoxify - namely endotoxin or estrogen? I just don’t understand why the body would have adaptive mechanisms that would be so maladaptive on a conscious level. Being fat sucks. Thinking about being fat sucks. Stressing about losing weight sucks. I can’t understand why it isn’t easier to just get rid of water weight. The most weight I’ve gained in my life is 20lbs, and I’ve also lost 20lbs. I’ve been between 110-150lbs my entire life and I have always felt like I did not gain or lose much fat but rather went through periods of being bloated/edematous and then shedding the bloat.

 

[Cirion]

Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging

It's not complicated to lose water weight, but it's not simple either. Removing stressors are often easier said than done... But that's what it boils down to, stress.

Adding salt though is indeed one of the strategies that RP recommends to employ to help lose bloat. I have considered trying Diamox also as I've heard it can help treat sleep apnea as well, which is a constant struggle for me as well.

danielbb here taught me you can quickly tell if your diet is stressing you out or healing you. Check your weight daily (I know I know, that's frowned upon in some circles here but bear with me). If it goes up significantly like a pound or two, you probably ate something your body doesn't like. If it goes down or at least stays about the same, you're probably mostly fine. I have gained upwards of 3 lbs in a day. It turned out that was happening because of foods my body really hated like too much starch, too much tryptophan, too much dietary fat. These have been the three worst offenders for me.

 

[Vinny]

. Vinny, please don't make the same mistake I did. I just continued to ate as much as I wanted including dietary fat and gained and gained and gained and it literally would never have stopped. The idea that weight gain will stop is always a nice thing, but simply doesn't apply to everyone. At least not while eating a dietary fat rich diet**

Wisdom you speak, master.
I drastically reduced my fat intake and will go on that way, no matter what. I`m done with it. Fat is detrimental, at least for me. I almost kicked the bucket on HF/keto bull****.

 

[Cirion]

I will say and agree the "epitome of health" is when you can eat virtually anything even "junk" foods and remain lean. My disagreement is just, how do you arrive at that point but we can all agree that's when you know you're healthy and thus "Cured" of hypothyroid. My strategy involves pufa and body fat depletion, alleviating the strain from estrogen/serotonin, and restoring insulin sensitivity first and this strategy seems to be a more fool-proof way to cure hypothyroid (IMO). There are confounding factors no doubt, since it is clear that some people have somehow cured themselves by just saying **** it and eating everything Matt Stone style, but that can be a very risky approach that doesn't always work but I admit CAN work and has worked for people in this very thread.