Escaping Learned Helplessness

[Xisca]

I didn't found TRE particularly useful for learned helplessness, maybe a little bit yes, and even if someone does, I think it will still be very mild.

Anyway, I practised TRE a lot of times some years ago (before knowing about stress hormones/metabolism/Peat) and I found that after doing it and for 2-3 days, I was very relaxed mind and body and without stamina. I said, ok, it's good to be relaxed but what's it's use if I'm drained and have no "quick spark". Now I think what was happening is that I was constantly running on stress hormones, the TRE diminished the stress response/hormones, and since I didn't (or don't) have a good thyroid metabolism I felt drained because I had no alternative energy source developed. Does this make any sense ? Just guessing.

Wouldn't surprise me.
Or else you needed more rest, and it was just the stress response that was keeping you from it?
Or both?

Hmmm.... I don't think I needed more (in quantity) of rest by that time. Maybe I wasn't geting good (in quality) rest because of stress hormones, that's a different thing.

I agree with all this. I tend to be the same as Makrosky, running on stress hormone.
TRE is not specific enough, as it works on 1 muscle and out of the specific context of the person.
Comments:
Good to be relaxed: yes but not enough to solve any problem, because it will come back with the stimulus, unless you can avoid it.
no alternative energy: you cannot find it until you run out of the emergency state of funcioning with stress hormone. The body looks for what it needs only!
So yes, diet helps for thyroid, but also the specific work to stabilise the nervous system.
I have no interest in it, I do not advertise but I remind you that my tool is called somatic experiencing.
Also, the body has to cope with any new state, and it is not so easy, even when the new state is a nice one. This has to be contained and stabilised. You reached the limit of TRE, but I can assure you that it gave you an idea of the right track, and that there is somethiing else beyond this new sense of feeling drained.

It might not be relevant for you, but I can bring only my only example and experience. After feeling without the necessary energy, I got more conscious that I might not need to have that much energy all the time. I like to feel all the time ready "just in case something happens", but this is a tiring way of living, pumping stress hormones all the time. Of course I find it weird to experience another state, and give my body the oportunity to adapt and produce something else than stress hormones.

 

[Xisca]

So of course I cannot agree with Jaa saying " Agree with the comment below about trembling being a contracted and tense state. I don't think that's beneficial. "

Trembling is THE way to remove a contracted and tense state that has been frozen!
The tension comes from the activation to deal with a danger.
It stays there because of the lack of discharge when it has been frozen.
trembling is a combination of tiny movements of going forth and back.
This is a subtle mix of fight and flee movements: attack and back.
Make those movements tiny and quickly, and it looks like shivering doesn't it?

When we tremble, yes Jaa, we are contracted, what is beneficial is to complete this stage and GO OUT of it. Then comes a deep sense of peace. As i do it, I also have to say that a person is needed to do it safely. Even after 5 years I still find it hard. I do it alone in the evry day life, but not for big stuffs. 1 mistake and you make it worse. We want to better the resilience of the nervous system through success.

Successes make you come out of helplessness.

it takes a LOT more...than shaking your body to overcome helpless state feelings, lol...in fact that might not do much or anything. What you do has to have useful value, or else, if it wastes energy, its even a stress

Agree with the first part.

Disagree with the second one : Maintaining muscles contracted chronically spends A LOT of energy. Being relaxed saves A LOT of energy.

Ok. Stop about trembling, we've hijacked the thread!

Same agreement and disagreement, Also, learned helplessness is NOT a feeling. The feeling is present, or not, somethimes, but this is absolutely a physiological state.
Hope I made you see that we did not hijacked the thereat at all.
Trembling is absolutely about removing the tension of learned helplessness. If you think it is not, it is just because it is not enough, or has to be done in a very precise way.
As pboy says, then it can have a useful value.

BUT, think that not trying can be a sign of learned helplessness! Do you do things only when you are sure to succeed? Usually not. All movements teach our body something, what to do, what to do differently. When we are in danger, then our body has access to all the movements that were once tryed in life, they are all in the body memory, and you cannot know in advance what will be most useful.

A child that learned to crawl and walk only on smooth flat surfaces does not have the same possibilities as the one who grew up in a diverse natural environment. All the "useless" movements of a baby do not "waste" energy. Or yes, they do waste energy, but this is not a stress. A waste of energy is a stress only in danger. Outside of danger, this can be playing for example. Being stressed by a waste of energy out of danger can be part of learned helplessness.

Lastly, i add that in the context of removing the stucked energy of helplessness, there is a danger, the danger of renforcing the stress, so YES, you have to do something useful, or it can be more than a stress. As I said, a waste of energy is a stress when there is danger. When you work with stress, you work beyond time, time does not exist, so you are in the danger as when you lived it. Do not re-live stressful experiences by imagination, as this is activating the nervous system.

One thing is important in TRE: you can stop the tremors when you want. This makes it safe, but less precise and less active as well. Anyway, the discharge of the acumulated energy has to be done very little by very little. Less is more.

 

[Xisca]

Edit: Agree with the comment below about trembling being a contracted and tense state. I don't think that's beneficial. The rocking exercises I am referring to are performed in an open, relaxed state.

My mistake I was thinking of shivering. I can kind of feel how self induced trembling would expand and stretch everything out including the diaphram.

Shivering and trembling are the same, no mistake there.
In TRE, it is self induced yes, but this does not mean this is voluntary. This is still something that is like happening on its own! It can be stopped voluntarily for safety reasons, because it is powerful. In TRE, you can just extend your legs and it will stop the shivering or trembling.

When we shiver after having a big fear, the best advise is to let it happen and be in it until it disappears by itself. This is what will make you avoid stress the next days. This is what evacuate the stress of the activation during the difficult moment. This is a mere physiological event that let all the stress hormon go away.

Exercises in a relaxed state are still useful, like letting go the steam under pressure.
Relaxation and even a good cry on a friend shoulder, are lowering activation, and this is great.

What i have been talking about is more about stopping the fire under the steam cooker. A better image is even that we can make it possible for the cooker to grow! Then it can contain more steam without any explosion risk.

 

[Xisca]

so you do all those things, and if your having problem in life, they still remain. You actually have to overcome problems, then you wont have to do anything silly or forced, relaxing is then natural. The drowning rat could do all that stuff, shivering, diaphragmatic breathing...its still drowning, and its only goal really is to get out

Confusing. Learned helplessness is after surviving. Of course you have to get out. We want to know what to do after getting out. Some SE specialists for example helped after the tsunami in India.

Fishermen were unable to take their boat and go fishing.
After 1 session, most of them were already able to go fishing again.

So no, they did not have to overcome the problem, they had to clear their nervoous system from the loss of orientation due to being caught in the water, for example.

After not knowing any more what is up or down, the vestibular system is overwhelmed. Or you swan with all your strengh, and there was a moment you thought you could nothing more and were going to die. Then you wake up and you are not on the other side, you are still alive on earth, and you barely know you are alive. And when you approach the sea that had been your friend until now, your system goes back to the moment of the maximum activation and this makes it colapse again. There is not problem to overcome, there is a nervous system that has to clear itself the way it was meant to. And it can be helped when it does not do it by itself.

 

[tara]

When we shiver after having a big fear, the best advise is to let it happen and be in it until it disappears by itself. This is what will make you avoid stress the next days. This is what evacuate the stress of the activation during the difficult moment. This is a mere physiological event that let all the stress hormon go away.

This is how it seems to me, too. I don't tremble easily, but when it happens it is clear that it is relaxing and empowering and helps clear the mind of rigidity.

 

[narouz]

Peat interview with Herb Doctors
on "Learned Helplessness."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_WjGoke92s

 

[charlie]

narouz, please see my sig.

 

[narouz]

narouz, please see my sig.

Hmmm...I think I followed those instructions, Charlie...
I dunno. :?

 

[charlie]

narouz, please see my sig.

Hmmm...I think I followed those instructions, Charlie...
I dunno. :?

No worries.

 

[narouz]

narouz, please see my sig.

Hmmm...I think I followed those instructions, Charlie...
I dunno. :?

No worries.

Oh...I see what you mean.
So the YouTube Button (on the toolbar at the far right) is...inoperative/unnecessary?

 

[charlie]

Totally not needed. However, since I disabled all the extensions it(the youtube video) will not show up right now. I will we working to get it back up and running.

 

[gummybear]

Very interesting thread, thanks. Is there any other ways to get out of learned helplessness? Is it just high serotonin that is the cause and the immidiate reaction is then to lower it?

Serotonine or any neurotransmetor seems to me a consequence more than a cause, a way to make the body react.

Lerned helplessness is when the 2 main reactions of the body to danger do not work. When you cannot flee or fight, then... So when it is repeted over time, you do not even try, you "know" it is useless. The reaction is just automatic.

Flee and fight are the 2 first Fs, but there is a third which is called Freeze. This is the possum reaction, the stress of death just makes him "fall like dead". He does not play it actually, this is an automatic autonomous response. This can be life saving! So this is not a useless reaction.

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking. Shaking is just a concentrate of back and forth movements, which are the useless flee and fight responses that were stuck in the body.

That's interesting, thanks for your answer. So you are suggesting...dancing? Lsd? Mushrooms?

 

[Birdie]

narouz, please see my sig.

Hmmm...I think I followed those instructions, Charlie...
I dunno. :?

No worries.

Thanks narouz and Charlie.
I found the thing back when narouz put it up.
Haven't listened yet though.

Am gardening all day every day and feeling un-helpless.

A steady dose of sunshine, meaningful work and nature...
Instead of oil painting, I'm planting and weeding.
I could paint some of the things in the garden, but I like just gardening for beauty.

So, gummybear, this is my dancing !

When late fall hits, and the garden begins to sleep, maybe I'll take a listen to Ray on Learned Helplessness.

 

[narouz]

I wanna know more about that garden.

 

[natedawggh]

it takes a LOT more...than shaking your body to overcome helpless state feelings, lol...

That's as bad as AA telling people they are powerless over their addiction.

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking.

Humans animals do it by shaking too, if they have not been forced/trained not to.
TRE seems to be one of the ways people are deliberately trying to free up this facility.

I didn't found TRE particularly useful for learned helplessness, maybe a little bit yes, and even if someone does, I think it will still be very mild.

Anyway, I practised TRE a lot of times some years ago (before knowing about stress hormones/metabolism/Peat) and I found that after doing it and for 2-3 days, I was very relaxed mind and body and without stamina. I said, ok, it's good to be relaxed but what's it's use if I'm drained and have no "quick spark". Now I think what was happening is that I was constantly running on stress hormones, the TRE diminished the stress response/hormones, and since I didn't (or don't) have a good thyroid metabolism I felt drained because I had no alternative energy source developed. Does this make any sense ? Just guessing.

Wouldn't surprise me.
Or else you needed more rest, and it was just the stress response that was keeping you from it?
Or both?

@Sheik... actually I have been in AA now for five months, and being an alcoholic of the type that descended into learned helplessness, I know exactly what the experience is like. Alcohol, according to Peat and common sense, is highly destructive and elevates estrogen and serotonin to extreme levels, which is exactly what happens in learned helplessness. If you believe alcoholics have power over their disease then you don't necessarily understand Peat's philosophy, because learned helplessness is not something you can just manually change if you are a victim of it. Over time this hormone imbalance (cause by alcohol or other environmental/nutritional stressors) becomes a chronic and self perpetuating condition, and it has only been through the social support of AA that I've been able to structure my life to come out of the condition. Both manually abstaining from alcohol which caused it and being taught by the program how to live a fulfilling and enriching life, enrichment also being a major tenet of Peat's philosophy and in combating the stress hormones that create learned helplessness in the first place.

@tara and everyone else... this is really interesting. Being in recover I've seen a lot of people who have hardcore addictions, and the withdrawal looks a lot like what you are talking about... the same as that inability to flight or flight, the shaking and convulsing and the confusion/spaced out. In my own recovery (I only had alcohol addiction, not drug like a lot of the others i've seen) I think I have been recovering faster because of my peat diet high in protein, fructose and calcium... there are a lot of people in the program who have no idea about diet, some who've abstained for years and years, and they continue to suffer from severe depression, anxiety, helplessness, etc., whereas I am thriving. As I meet people still struggling I try to impress upon them the necessity of a good diet like mine.

 

[Birdie]

I'm also a great appreciator of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I was many years in OA (Overeaters Anon) and went to AA meetings for enthusiasm and heart and seriousness and fun. A lot of really good speakers at those meetings. Too bad about the donuts.

Diet is important for us compulsive eaters too. One of the things that has helped my overeating has been to avoid the combination of starch and polyunstaturated fats. We called foods that put us out of control triggers.

I stopped going to meetings when we moved away from Calif, but the principles stay with me. Mainly, always remembering that this is a life wrecking problem I'm dealing with. It makes one helpless when it takes over.

I find Peat's Way of eating reduces cravings..

 

[pboy]

i think that kinda ***t is like the medical community and actually harmful. Its like 'you have a dieaseee' now you can all feel sorry for each other and ...it just has a very serotonergic vibe..like victim sadness stuff. Its like dude...drinking isn't even that big a deal, and its not the root of the peoples problems, its just a way of coping. Its like...not like, their life changes in a huge way when they stop drinking, its just exposed as lackluster and all their problems surface...which is why they drink in the first place. If you cant offer them a better solution and real help to other of lifes challenges, its actually rude in my opinion to take away alcohol from them. And its rude to the people saying like you're just weak have no self control ect, its because the people running them are not much better off and have no clue about anything about anything in real life

 

[narouz]

These thoughts about alcohol and Peat are very interesting.

One perpective to keep in mind
is that Broda Barnes noted a very strong correlation
between hypothyroidism and alcoholism.
And, I think Barnes reckoned that something like 40% of people in US were hypothyroid.
(I may have the numbers a little wrong, but I think the general idea is approximately right.)

I have a friend, a woman, who has always been treated for hypo
with just T4.
Last I checked, she was pretty hard core alcoholic.
Unfortunately, she is the kind of person who doesn't much listen to any dietary ideas.

On a bit different tack,
and riffing off of pboy:
I have another friend, a guy, who has always been a hard core smoker.
And in the last 20 years or so a pretty heavy drinker.
On top of that he's added Effexor, Midipress, and a sleeping drug( maybe Clonodine?), and occasional Xanax...
We have a mutual friend who is a substance abuse manager with Anthem,
and he is always after the abusing friend to stop drinking and smoking.
I've thought a lot about this over the Peat years
and I think it may be a backwards strategy to try to tackle the alcohol and smoking first.
He has a terrible (from a Peat perspective) diet--
just about as wrong as you can get.
If he was going to attempt a change,
ideally I would think the diet should come first.

 

[pboy]

indeed, you have to build an energy producing foundation and have the person have some intelligence about how their body works...then naturally the alcohol starts tasting bad, when you have a stomach of milk ...kinda thing, and enough energy anyways. People always do the best of what they know, so currently his drinking / smoking is the best he kn ows...for metabolism. Scorning and taking that away solves nothing, and telling them they have a problem just ruins their self esteem. You have to build a core that has a rising energy from the ground up, they have to have something else to rely on that gets their brain online or its just rude to take away things

 

[Xisca]

Hi Birdie, I also use gardening all day long, for fun, beauty, heart-giving to the living world, and my diet of course!
Gummy bear, anyone can chose, and appart from gardening, I use SE, somatic Experiencing, to discharge my autonomous nervous system.

About groups and human support, this is also a key point of SE.

And diet. Some mix of different approaches are good, they complement.