Escaping Learned Helplessness

[Xisca]

Oops, we can tremble as animals, but by shaking I meant what a hairy dog do after a bath!
We are animals with the skin stuck on the flesh, and we cannot shake ourselves this way.
Dogs do this shaking all day long, and this is not to put their hairs in order!
What wwe do iinstead is laughing. Laughing makes our body shake

 

[answersfound]

in terms of overcoming learned helplessness, yes...not over diet, just on equal terms. They actually go hand in hand, mental beliefs influence diet and vice verse, as well as sense of worthiness to actually succeed...all tied together. Its such a complex topic especially in our society, theres a lot of other factors like...the space you're in and people you're around, living with, how much freedom you have, and a lot of other things that can flip a switch from courage to and belief in doing something over doubt and fear about the thing . It all comes down to feelings of openness courage, grace, and support inside...spirit is large part of that, state of your conscience, and also people you're around and interact with, experiences you have or things youve witnessed. Diet is enormous because it can...keep you in a low state or cause this or that offense, and in such a state, unless you are already wired a certain way via a knowing of something better and certain experiences you've had, diet alone can keep someone down or from expanding and in a pessimistic negative state, out of touch with anything higher...within themselves and outside. And even once you are extremely well developed mentally, soulfully, experienced, your wiring is straight to know whats always going on within and outside and are able to be stable and confident, good diet makes everything 10x easier and you have more energy and feel more elated and connected most of the time, as well as sleep...sunlight, social interaction and other non diet essentials. Id almost say diet is the most important thing, but when I think about my journey...sure things really changed and took off when I started looking into health, food, chemicals, and changed all that about 6 years ago...like HUGE changes, but also...I was inspired in the first place to do that because of an internal insight and thought process and other situations in my life, synchronicities and just a knowing or longing...so those things came before the desire to consider health and my body and environment and all that as a main factor. Plus, because it came from a strong internal forcing almost, it allowed me to go through some extreme experiences, experiments, and have the fortitude to stand in that path despite many tugs and pulls and awkward situations to overcome. This came after time id been partying for a few years post high school and into college using substances and having years of late nights, adventures, crazy fun and ..all kinds of experiences. Id go in nature a lot also with friends and just by myself. Cannabis was enormous. So then that inspired me to change diet, I kinda was forced to make a change because of various circumstances and I refused to not believe in the highest possibilities, the harmony of life..id just seen too many things, had too many experiences, insights, being in nature, listening to soul, so then ...about a year later I became a vegan and sorta jumped all in, this was before things were popular as they were today on the internet...like I didn't even watch youtube then, so I was doing all what I was just from the heart and learning in real time, I basically felt 10x better than I ever had naturally, cause I was actually healthy with bloodflow and had ton of energy, I ended up going on the whole food journey and more for years, now I realize when I eat, or ate along the way, and just through all the experimentation, that food...diet, lifestyle like that, is so important ..hugely important for feelings of being able to break through things, change things, internal fortitude, inner trust, respect of life, and much more...yet somehow I kicked it all off...while still eating an avg diet and just coming off drinking a lot and other stuff. All related, and influence each other directly.
For me it was about higher exploration of life and my soul, so naturally diet had to line up with those values and fit into the beliefs, knowings really, that id experienced. Then diet became my main focus, health in general, when I realized how much of a huge factor it was, and for the sake of experiencing the most in life...being the most awake and sensitive, I desired nothing but the most promotional diet and lifestyle that never caused pain or feelings of holding me back

In fact in a lot of ways, this goes into the purpose of life itself. Theres a lot of things you can go all out in and play your hand perfectly, but just isn't going to happen, at that moment or whatever it is...its part of life, but really...the learned helplessness thing, in a lot of ways, is like trying to achieve liberation, the highest goal in eastern spirituality. Many people will say and write about how to interpret that and I think most people haven't come close and don't know what' they're talking about. If you are a slave to something, a book, a concept, wearing robes and reciting stuff, you're far from it...yet those are the people that talk about it like authorities! On my journey ive come to realize, its really liberation to give yourself 100% permission to be fully you, in every way conceivable, how you express yourself, how you want to behave, how you want to believe, where you want to be who you're around, and what you want to explore. When you are literally as free to be yourself as like a little kid, in terms of just expression and being, you're pretty happy no matter what, everything is an opportunity for fun. And in that state of mind, learning increases WAY fast because you're just more open, and you begin to understand life much more and have more appreciation for the magnitude of it all

This obviously differs from a rat drowning, and if a human finds themselves in situation of say a famine or something where theres like no quick answer, its sort of futile to assume you can overcome the helpless feeling immediately, like you keep working towards it rhythmically and gracefully, and decisively, but sometimes you cant have it right away...that kinda thing. You cant take a pill to end the famine right away, or to make things magically appear or happen. But if you have a deeper faith and keep acting in the best manner with a fun spirit and a knowing inside, you'll not only suffer less during it but will be more likely to come out of it. Its like why people drink or smoke..during such situations that require patience or some kind of endurance or something, and joke and tell stories and talk to other people, some situations cant be overcome right away but if you maintain good spirit and fully express yourself in an even foolish matter just for the fun of it, its not that bad. Its why little kids are never depressed or unhappy even while being dragged around by parents or in places they don't like or with no possessions or entertainement devices, theyre just fully free within, they don't even know what not being that is. And they always have an inkling inside, a knowing, that even if a certain situation isn't the best, its naturally going to get better tomorrow, or the next day, and they fully let opportunities for happiness that well within no matter what the belief or spontaneous expression or action is, they do it just for the fun of it..to feel good and free and alive and happy, without thinking about it or defining it

Basically, you can work on within 100% and execute in life, outside curcumstances are often unavoidable or just not ideal, but if you're really good within, diet wise, and spirit wise, you're pretty good anyways and can even just have fun or make fun with lifes stuff, and its all good. Just don't ever choke yourself up with any guilt fear or doubt of being judged or failure, let yourself fully be, do it for the fun, do it so you'll really know, do it cause you want to, it would make you feel doped and explorative and happy, and that's the kinda beliefs you need to overcome stuff, and rewire and purge your mind from all the non real garbage or fears or doubts or guilts or other peoples voices and garbage or whatever it is. Leave nothing on the table that's like well I could have done this or that, or it would have been awesome or fun if I did this or that or to have done this or that, so even if you are in one of those situations of things externally not being optimum, you are still present and know its simply an outside circumstance, not something within

theres a large momentum factor also, the more you courage out of the helpless negative state, the more you believe you can do it more and again. The more you sink back, the more its just habit to do that...but every time you do that, it eats you up inside and ultimately youll never be satisfied, build regret and have tension and even bitterness

I don't have all the answers, but I know how to never have myself be to blame for not having gone all out, for being and trusting within all out, and for not feeling bad about anything I did, or anything I didn't try to do...then from there, whatever happens is just how it is. If it turns out life itself is a hopeless arena of inevitable suffering at least on occasion or in some fashion, at least I will know its not me, its just life

a large part of learned helpless...that whole retreat or just...tense choking up in life thing, is mostly because of lack of human, social, love and understanding. We are in a situation now where a social animal that used to have to rely on each other, work together, to survive as its only goal, it was us against nature...well, in harmony of nature, but against starving and freezing or being eaten basically, or poisoned, into a situation where its human vs human, in a subtle but obvious to our subconscious way...everything as simple as a commercial on TV is really an attack on one human from another over resources or just for greed and isn't love or authenticity at all. So basically the fact we feel inside, that we aren't genuinely part of a tribe...or that all the people around us are fully on the same team, fully honest about our situation as human beings...souls in a body, here, with all the things about life, is a huge constant stress that plays and messes with subconscious in a huge way...the fact people starve while others rich, people lie, people scheme, no one cares that much, ect..is a horrible deep knowing that most people ultimately know but it isn't in the surface of their thoughts. So to really be a real human...wow man, it takes a special level of, many would say craziness, but its just dedication to being real and to really be the most of what you are, you basically have to not play the game of society, play the real game of you , us, humans, here, no idea whats going on, this is the situation, be real, express feelings totally honestly, ect....like why do people were uncomfortable suits as an obligatory thing? we all know we all function better and want to wear light loose things...theres some kind of posturing, rank, human against human threatening vibe, so people just do it and don't san anything. Real humans, non helpless humans, never have to distort or twist of candy coat what they say (lie)..., or posture up some image mask persona to others, so to totally be free and non helpless in feel, you often have to be very...bold, and almost not care what happens, beacsue that's just how the situation is, and that's how we were designed to be

skip all this b.s. and take an anti-serotonin drug.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Hey if you can read all that you're cured from helplessness

 

[narouz]

skip all this b.s. and take an anti-serotonin drug.

Sounds like to me you may be the one brimming with estrogen and serotonin.

 

[Greg says]

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByalBx85iC8youtube]

In response to threat and injury, animals, including humans, execute biologically based, non-conscious action patterns that prepare them to meet the threat and defend themselves.

The very structure of trauma, including activation, dissociation and freezing are based on the evolution of survival behaviors. When threatened or injured, all animals draw from a "library" of possible responses. We orient, dodge, duck, stiffen, brace, retract, fight, flee, freeze, collapse, etc. All of these coordinated responses are somatically based- they are things that the body does to protect and defend itself. It is when these orienting and defending responses are overwhelmed that we see trauma.

The bodies of traumatized people portray "snapshots" of their unsuccessful attempts to defend themselves in the face of threat and injury. Trauma is a highly activated incomplete biological response to threat, frozen in time. For example, when we prepare to fight or to flee, muscles throughout our entire body are tensed in specific patterns of high energy readiness. When we are unable to complete the appropriate actions, we fail to discharge the tremendous energy generated by our survival preparations. This energy becomes fixed in specific patterns of neuromuscular readiness. The person then stays in a state of acute and then chronic arousal and dysfunction in the central nervous system. Traumatized people are not suffering from a disease in the normal sense of the word- they have become stuck in an aroused state. It is difficult if not impossible to function normally under these circumstances.”

 

[gretchen]

The Gnoll's Credo by J. Stanton offers the "paleo" take on dealing with learned helplessness:
http://www.thegnollcredo.com/what-is-the-gnoll-credo/

We all know this. Written for humans.

We are born and we die. No one cares, no one remembers, and it doesn’t matter.
This is why we laugh.
Our pack, our children, our territory, the hunt, the kill, the battle. Health, full stomach, sharp weapons, your packmates next to you under the stars, seeing your child kill her first prey. These are important.
Anything else is needless complication, no matter how much fun it is.
If you can’t eat it, wear it, wield it, or carry it, leave it behind.
Plan before hunting, discuss after hunting, hunt while hunting.
Lead, follow, or hunt alone. Success—first meat of kill, greater trust. Failure—less trust. Disaster—survivors eat you.
Expect trust outside the pack to be betrayed.
Two are much stronger than one. Three are much stronger than two. Ten are barely stronger than nine. Fifty are much stronger than ten, but barely stronger than forty.
An archer, a swordsman, and a scout are stronger than three swordsmen.
Stay alive. Hopeless battles are hopeless. Dead is dead.
Stay alive. Once you decide to kill, use all your skill, strength, and deception. Nobly dead is dead.
Die biting the throat.

You can probably never escape so long as you drink a lot of A1 milk.

 

[Greg says]

I watched the movie 127 Hours and listened to some interviews afterwards with Aron Ralston (the guy who cut off his own arm to survive being trapped by a boulder). He seemed to have suffered no post trauma.

It might have something to do with the fact he was able to rescue himself, and he may possibly have been more traumatised if he had been rescued. I read an interesting account of the Chowchilla kidnapping of children where 1 individual who was able to mobilise his energy and escape (and thus also rescue the others) suffered less traumatic effects in later life than those individuals who were paralysed by fear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2XLoQ1xYB0

 

[Such_Saturation]

The Gnoll's Credo by J. Stanton offers the "paleo" take on dealing with learned helplessness:
http://www.thegnollcredo.com/what-is-the-gnoll-credo/

We all know this. Written for humans.

We are born and we die. No one cares, no one remembers, and it doesn’t matter.
This is why we laugh.
Our pack, our children, our territory, the hunt, the kill, the battle. Health, full stomach, sharp weapons, your packmates next to you under the stars, seeing your child kill her first prey. These are important.
Anything else is needless complication, no matter how much fun it is.
If you can’t eat it, wear it, wield it, or carry it, leave it behind.
Plan before hunting, discuss after hunting, hunt while hunting.
Lead, follow, or hunt alone. Success—first meat of kill, greater trust. Failure—less trust. Disaster—survivors eat you.
Expect trust outside the pack to be betrayed.
Two are much stronger than one. Three are much stronger than two. Ten are barely stronger than nine. Fifty are much stronger than ten, but barely stronger than forty.
An archer, a swordsman, and a scout are stronger than three swordsmen.
Stay alive. Hopeless battles are hopeless. Dead is dead.
Stay alive. Once you decide to kill, use all your skill, strength, and deception. Nobly dead is dead.
Die biting the throat.

You can probably never escape so long as you drink a lot of A1 milk.

http://youtu.be/GJu8RreAGnM

 

[Makrosky]

Thanks for ginger info! I used to use it a lot, but then I also used liquorice root and other stuff so I stopped all that. But I'm going to revisit this one. Ginger has a nice sweetness and can be good grated and drunk as a tea/added to some teas.

Ginger and licorice root usually go together in lots of TCM/Ayurveda formulas. Without entering into "energetic" details of those "herbs", I guess it's ok to have them together.

 

[Makrosky]

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking.

Humans animals do it by shaking too, if they have not been forced/trained not to.
TRE seems to be one of the ways people are deliberately trying to free up this facility.

I didn't found TRE particularly useful for learned helplessness, maybe a little bit yes, and even if someone does, I think it will still be very mild.

Anyway, I practised TRE a lot of times some years ago (before knowing about stress hormones/metabolism/Peat) and I found that after doing it and for 2-3 days, I was very relaxed mind and body and without stamina. I said, ok, it's good to be relaxed but what's it's use if I'm drained and have no "quick spark". Now I think what was happening is that I was constantly running on stress hormones, the TRE diminished the stress response/hormones, and since I didn't (or don't) have a good thyroid metabolism I felt drained because I had no alternative energy source developed. Does this make any sense ? Just guessing.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Not really unless you write out acronyms

 

[tara]

Not really unless you write out acronyms

TRE: Trauma Release Exercises. Involves deliberately getting the body trembling and/or shaking to reduce residual body tension.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Not really unless you write out acronyms

TRE: Trauma Release Exercises. Involves deliberately getting the body trembling and/or shaking to reduce residual body tension.

That sounds neat, I will try it.

 

[tara]

http://www.bercelifoundation.org
I've had one session with a teacher, and meant to practice more myself - now I'm reminded, maybe I'll have another go this weekend.

 

[tara]

The problem seems the difficulty humans have to go out of the freeze response after a stress, small or big. Animals do it by shaking.

Humans animals do it by shaking too, if they have not been forced/trained not to.
TRE seems to be one of the ways people are deliberately trying to free up this facility.

I didn't found TRE particularly useful for learned helplessness, maybe a little bit yes, and even if someone does, I think it will still be very mild.

Anyway, I practised TRE a lot of times some years ago (before knowing about stress hormones/metabolism/Peat) and I found that after doing it and for 2-3 days, I was very relaxed mind and body and without stamina. I said, ok, it's good to be relaxed but what's it's use if I'm drained and have no "quick spark". Now I think what was happening is that I was constantly running on stress hormones, the TRE diminished the stress response/hormones, and since I didn't (or don't) have a good thyroid metabolism I felt drained because I had no alternative energy source developed. Does this make any sense ? Just guessing.

Wouldn't surprise me.
Or else you needed more rest, and it was just the stress response that was keeping you from it?
Or both?

 

[Makrosky]

Wouldn't surprise me.
Or else you needed more rest, and it was just the stress response that was keeping you from it?
Or both?

Hmmm.... I don't think I needed more (in quantity) of rest by that time. Maybe I wasn't geting good (in quality) rest because of stress hormones, that's a different thing.

 

[Makrosky]

Not really unless you write out acronyms

TRE: Trauma Release Exercises. Involves deliberately getting the body trembling and/or shaking to reduce residual body tension.

That sounds neat, I will try it.

Good decision. Even if it's just for the fun of feeling your body automatically trembling

You can get the book with the exercises for a few bucks and do it at home.

 

[pboy]

it takes a LOT more...than shaking your body to overcome helpless state feelings, lol...in fact that might not do much or anything. What you do has to have useful value, or else, if it wastes energy, its even a stress

learned helplessness isn't just a simple thing, its...an ancient problem as old as mankind, its the hero's journey, its whats in myth and religions, its life. Its overcoming maya, loki, the trickster, devil, whatever you want to call it, its overcoming feelings of faithlessness via knowing through experience. Its the firewalk. Its the 40 days under the tree, in the desert, whatever...its your life. Humans inhernatly have the problem of not knowing why they are here, and suffer if they don't take decisive right action pretty much every moment of every day. Life is always having an inertia that the only way to overcome is right intelligent action, within the circular daily cycle and larger cycles. Inevitably you feel, everyone, has a sense of helplessness naturally when pain starts setting in and responsibility enters your life, basically post toddler or infant stage. Say you had money, a job, a sense of freedom, you would still be suffering for a million reasons if you didn't know or have gone through certain things. Its...not something that can be laid plainly out. Its you hving to have tremendous courage to walk the razors edge, with a focus that is deeper than the body itself, so no matter what state your body is in, you still take right action on that path towards knowing, proving, or disproving. And it takes like many many many years. Ultimately you have to find salvation within yourself, and get joy in the space between things, during the regular moments of life, or you'll always be nagged, and feel a sense of potential helplessness. Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water

 

[jaa]

Not really unless you write out acronyms

TRE: Trauma Release Exercises. Involves deliberately getting the body trembling and/or shaking to reduce residual body tension.

That sounds neat, I will try it.

That sounds somewhat similar to the Original Strength rocking exercises. They are done mostly to restore strength and mobility to improve posture, but they also profess the added benefit of rocking as a soothing de-stressor.

Edit: Agree with the comment below about trembling being a contracted and tense state. I don't think that's beneficial. The rocking exercises I am referring to are performed in an open, relaxed state.

 

[Makrosky]

it takes a LOT more...than shaking your body to overcome helpless state feelings, lol...in fact that might not do much or anything. What you do has to have useful value, or else, if it wastes energy, its even a stress

Agree with the first part.

Disagree with the second one : Maintaining muscles contracted chronically spends A LOT of energy. Being relaxed saves A LOT of energy.

Besides that, the trembling probably affects many other physical/mental aspects unrelated to metabolic energy or learned helplessness.

Ok. Stop about trembling, we've hijacked the thread!