Escaping Learned Helplessness

[Birdie]

Agree narouz.

 

[Waremu]

I've stored up some other quibbles over the years
about the Learned Helplessness thing.
Here's one of them:

Now, I don't want to debate the politics of this,
at least not in this part of the forum.
I know some Libertarians who are nice people.
I will just make this objective observation:
this forum seems to attract a lot of folks of the Libertarian or Randian schools of political thought.
I guess this is because Peat is seen as a Maverick,
and Libertarians and Randians seem to self-identify as Mavericks themselves.
Also, similarly, Peat is seen as anti-estabishment.
He has said he wishes to dis-establish the medical-"science"-pharma-corporate power structure.
And Peat definitely is at least skeptical, if not just plain cynical, about most governments,
including the US government.
So those ideas ring pleasingly in Libertarian ears, I think.

(Again--not getting into whether Libertarianism is good or bad.
Just trying to reflect some general, objective impressions of the forum's membership
and political leanings.)

From those workpoints,
many come to the conclusion that Peat is a Libertarian.
This is a leap that I think is unfounded and that I am analyzing a bit in this post.
I think those who make that leap often use the Learned Helplessness view
to justify and reinforce the leap
connecting Peat to Libertarianism.

From a Libertarian point of view
the Learned Helplessness idea is pure catnip.
It is a diagnosis of the human condition which fits well into their political ideas.
In short,
it seems that Libertarians generally see governments as the main affliction of mankind.
It is government which teaches, in their view, Learned Helplessness.
And so the thinking goes,
if you get rid of government,
you get rid of Learned Helplessness.

So, thinking about a political issue, wealth inequality for instance,
Libertarians look at, say, the popular charts on YouTube about Wealth Inequality
and turn to the Peatian Learned Helplessness idea.
From their perspective, using the Learned Helplessness diagnosis writ large,
Libertarians will argue that the only reason the 90% are suffering from lack of wealth
is because they have been taught or have osmosed Learned Helplessness
from Big Nanny State Guvment.
And if we can just get rid of those governments,
then people will stop being cowardly, spineless, slavish, uncreative, unproductive, shiftless, lazy
wimps,
and then the wealth will flow,
and all will be right with the world.

Again, not commenting here upon the value, good or bad, of Libertarian thinking.
Just noting--because this is a thread on Learned Helplessness--
that Learned Helplessness is sometimes generalized here,
in a submerged way,
into a political idea.

I know you said you don't want to get political, and I will try to respect that, but seeing that I believe you to be incorrect in your analysis of libertarianism and health (mental and physical), I am sorry but I have to say, no one could be more far off the mark than you are. I have noticed the last few years many college kids (many who believe in socialism and even communism), in their attempt to try to define what libertarianism is and how it fits into society, in their own biased way, very often miss the mark by a million yards and what is even worse is that many other kids tend to eat up those fragile and incorrect ideas and arguments because they have been taught in college and HS school to not think for themselves/critical thinking and individualism, but rather a collective pack-mentality kind of way of thinking. Don't know what age group you fall in, and perhaps you are much older than that age group, but in general I find that many of those who bash libertarianism really have no true understanding of it ---- and that isn't to say that I believe it should be forced upon everyone, but rather, if something is to be criticized or corrected, then it must first be understood correctly, for what is not understood correctly can never be corrected, as the need for correction in of itself is needed only when there is error.

On a side note, I don't think anyone needs to be a libertarian to understand that throughout the last few hundred years, governments have been a (if not, the) leading cause of death on a massive scale. Likewise, today we see the same thing, but instead of an iron-clad approach which involves force, weapons, and soldiers, today the government is causing death through the corruption it breeds, by suppressing education on health problems and effective medicine to treat or even reverse disease because it is in bed with big pharma, or we can see this in other areas of the economy, with corporatism, which is basically fascism.

Libertarianism isn't about solving every social or health problem and blaming government for everything, but rather, blaming government for what it does and not giving it too much power because of it's proven record to always abuse that power. If there is a problem not caused by government, then it can be taken care of through education or other means, which is part of the free market. So again, your idea of how libertarianism would confront learned helplessness isn't very accurate at all. And lastly, you fail to recognize that governments or other entities can create an environment would may encourage learned helplessness, therefore in that way they can be somewhat responsible (for example, through economic woes caused by the government and central banking, etc., which creates poverty, wealth "inequality", etc.).

 

[narouz]

Libertarianism isn't about solving every social or health problem and blaming government for everything, but rather, blaming government for what it does and not giving it too much power because of it's proven record to always abuse that power. If there is a problem not caused by government, then it can be taken care of through education or other means, which is part of the free market.

Dang!
It sounds just like the Democratic Party in the U.S.!
I have been so confused!
I'm thinkin' I might really warm up to this Libertarianism!

...they have been taught in college and HS school to not think for themselves/critical thinking and individualism, but rather a collective pack-mentality kind of way of thinking.

Though I'm well past high school,
it is embarrassing to have to admit that you really nailed me dead on there.
I hate myself when I'm running with the pack but...
I know no other life.

I am sorry but I have to say, no one could be more far off the mark than you are.

I reckon.
Bernie Sanders?

...I find that many of those who bash libertarianism really have no true understanding of it and that isn't to say that I believe it should be forced upon everyone....

If it works as well as I am now persuaded it does, then...eh...
I say just go ahead and force 'em all. :2cents

...if something is to be criticized or corrected, then it must first be understood correctly, for what is not understood correctly can never be corrected, as the need for correction in of itself is needed only when there is error.

If I'm reading you right there, War...I'm kinda feelin' like there's no hope for me.
Well, I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that,
because I was building up such hopes
that you will larn me up on the wonders of Libertarianism
over in one of the appropriate threads here.

 

[Amazoniac]

pboy owns this thread.

pboy owns life.
We can simply replace all Chuck Norris and Russian phrases with him instead.
An ex: time doesn't pass for pboy; pboy passes the time. And so on..

 

[Amazoniac]

I have to ditch this habit: 90% of my posts are worshipping pboy, also known as this forum's mascot. I can't help it!

 

[narouz]

I have to ditch this habit: 90% of my posts are worshipping pboy, also known as this forum's mascot. I can't help it!

He is just reflecting to you an aspect of your self you are seeking to realize.
It is a natural part of The Unfolding.

Don't beat yourself up.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Libertarianism isn't about solving every social or health problem and blaming government for everything, but rather, blaming government for what it does and not giving it too much power because of it's proven record to always abuse that power. If there is a problem not caused by government, then it can be taken care of through education or other means, which is part of the free market.

Dang!
It sounds just like the Democratic Party in the U.S.!
I have been so confused!
I'm thinkin' I might really warm up to this Libertarianism!

...they have been taught in college and HS school to not think for themselves/critical thinking and individualism, but rather a collective pack-mentality kind of way of thinking.

Though I'm well past high school,
it is embarrassing to have to admit that you really nailed me dead on there.
I hate myself when I'm running with the pack but...
I know no other life.

I am sorry but I have to say, no one could be more far off the mark than you are.

I reckon.
Bernie Sanders?

...I find that many of those who bash libertarianism really have no true understanding of it and that isn't to say that I believe it should be forced upon everyone....

If it works as well as I am now persuaded it does, then...eh...
I say just go ahead and force 'em all. :2cents

...if something is to be criticized or corrected, then it must first be understood correctly, for what is not understood correctly can never be corrected, as the need for correction in of itself is needed only when there is error.

If I'm reading you right there, War...I'm kinda feelin' like there's no hope for me.
Well, I just going to pretend I didn't read that,
because I was building up such hopes
that you will larn me up on the wonders of Libertarianism
over in one of the appropriate threads here.

Narouz, please don't make me call Idi again

 

[Birdie]

I was just reading the above little exchange to Mr Birdie.
Fun!
Usually regret joining in because I have a hard time saying what I think.
It usually comes out stunted or not what I meant.

For example, what narouz wrote about libertarianism..
I wrote, "Agree." Trying to be brief.
But it was more than agreeing with his words. I agree with the tone of it.
Maybe. Or the way it opens up thought. Or.. hard to explain.
If I heard somebody else give my reaction, I would recognize it.

Escaping Learned Helplessness is a great topic.
But more than that, I've gained insight by reading the comments here.

 

[Peat's_Girl]

I have to ditch this habit: 90% of my posts are worshipping pboy, also known as this forum's mascot. I can't help it!

I was gonna say...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6QZn9xiuOE

 

[Peat's_Girl]

Wait, is it comments like that that make me a frivolous girl?

 

[Amazoniac]

Wait, is it comments like that that make me a frivolous girl?

Not exactly. But take a look at your historic. I confounded excitement with futility. Haha!
I already wrote and won't write again: my mistake, my bad and you're not what I thought that you were.
The only member who is able to judge others without apologies is pboy.

 

[narouz]

I was just reading the above little exchange to Mr Birdie.
Fun!
Usually regret joining in because I have a hard time saying what I think.
It usually comes out stunted or not what I meant.

For example, what narouz wrote about libertarianism..
I wrote, "Agree." Trying to be brief.
But it was more than agreeing with his words. I agree with the tone of it.
Maybe. Or the way it opens up thought. Or.. hard to explain.
If I heard somebody else give my reaction, I would recognize it.

Escaping Learned Helplessness is a great topic.
But more than that, I've gained insight by reading the comments here.

Great to hear you tweeting, Birdie!

 

[narouz]

Narouz, please don't make me call Idi again

You know,
usually you'd like to think
that somebody with a nice laugh and smile
is likely to be a good guy.
Maybe we've got it all wrong about Idi...

 

[pboy]

Wait, is it comments like that that make me a frivolous girl?

no it makes you entertaining..and that's always going in the right direction!

 

[Sheik]

Since we got to be here, let's live. I don't understand what is going on in this thread but it doesn't matter. We're all sensitive people with so much to give.

 

[pboy]

I was thinking today also...I don't know if the pack thing is true...at least amongst males...but like, it seems usually the more serotonin one has, the more they are kind of..less able to lead or be decisive...they are more serving the leader kind of mode...and afraid to take any kind of 'risk' which to a leader type, isn't a huge risk cause they have an inner knowing. I basically say this to say...what if say everyone was a boss....how would things be? perhaps harmonious and epic, or perhaps a lot of...tension. My personal vision of it is that..naturally, the less helpless...those type, like me personally, I recognize qualities in people right away...and usually people that have good qualities courage..dedication, resolve, high ideals...and are good people, honest and open....we almost don't even need to talk, we both just do whats right and its a positive building..amplifying, vibe to be a round such people. So I think if everyone was a boss, it would be legit...in the healthy way of course, not estrogenic. Another huge thing is that serotonin...because it kind of sets one up for service m ode to the more..energetic leader type people is that basically that's how so many people , on a huge level, are programmed and propagandized...the supposed leaders are really just people with a slight edge who massively take advantage and use them. Diet is incredibly huge, and lifestyle..meaning youre on a good rythmn with nature. If you are under eaten, or have bowel stuck, basically most immedialy are in serotonin mode, which is 90% of people every day. Also though...its the wiring of your being, like for me...ive lived in a good place for so long that ive reinforced and built through xpereince ..and seeing how thigns are, people are, when in a good state...so even on a day where I might be prone to serotonin, I still...from the wiring within , see and know wahts going on and don't get weak or anything, just go through it in the right way as if I was doped, anyways, but its still less fun than actually being doped

 

[Such_Saturation]

You know, to be a "leader" you need to subconsciously aknowledge the tradition and the hierarchy that you still fit inside of. So I'm saying you probably need serotonin for that.

 

[halken]

pboy owns this thread.

"owning" is infra dig to pboy,
I'd have to guess.

Huh?

 

[pboy]

i guess I shodltn say leader..more like, independent person, self guided and driven. Thats how I am myself but have no desire to really 'lead' unless asked for it by people, and even then sometiems its a lil uncomfortable. If everyone was like that, I think things would be better off still....that's really the hold back for a lot of people, they think without designated leaders and workers and all the structure everything would fall apart, and I think it would be the opposite, but only if people were very well built internally, self guided and driven and having good sense of harmony

 

[Xisca]

A lot of things have been said in this threat that are partially true or not enough to understand.
Greg said good things, but we have to see what is learned helplessness.
Learned: something happened and you learned something through the experience.
Helplessness: you could do nothing. overwhelmed.
The 2 together: your system did not recover properly, and you think & feel that you will be helpless again.
Diminish your resilience.

What I feel like correcting and precising so that it can be true and understandable:

In response to threat and injury, animals, including humans, execute biologically based, non-conscious action patterns that prepare them to meet the threat and defend themselves.

The very structure of trauma, including activation, dissociation and freezing are based on the evolution of survival behaviors. When threatened or injured, all animals draw from a "library" of possible responses. We orient, dodge, duck, stiffen, brace, retract, fight, flee, freeze, collapse, etc. All of these coordinated responses are somatically based- they are things that the body does to protect and defend itself. It is when these orienting and defending responses are overwhelmed that we see trauma.

Yes and no. No in wild animals for example.
"trauma" can mean "traumatic accident", this is an event.
Then, "trauma" often means "the consequence of the accident", the damage done in the system.

So the sentence I put in bold letters is not precise, it will be more acurate to say:
"It is when the nervous system cannot recover after having been overwhelmed that we see trauma consequences to the nervous system. This can be reestablished by completing the orienting and defensing responses that were not completed when the system was overwhelmed."

What describe helplessness in what Greg said?
Freeze.
And freeze occurs after a big activation, and this activation has not been able to solve the problem.
Freeze COVERS the big activation to paralyze it. When you REALLY come out of freeze, the activation is still there and has to be calmed down by a physiological evacuation from the nervous system.

Animals do this by trembling and we are able to do it as well. For many reasons, we usually do not do it properly. Trembling is not enough, taking care of the problem is not enough, resourcing by meditation, yoga etc, is not enough. The 2 together plus the ability to contain it without being overwhelmed again, is the path.

The bodies of traumatized people portray "snapshots" of their unsuccessful attempts to defend themselves in the face of threat and injury. Trauma is a highly activated incomplete biological response to threat, frozen in time. For example, when we prepare to fight or to flee, muscles throughout our entire body are tensed in specific patterns of high energy readiness. When we are unable to complete the appropriate actions, we fail to discharge the tremendous energy generated by our survival preparations. This energy becomes fixed in specific patterns of neuromuscular readiness. The person then stays in a state of acute and then chronic arousal and dysfunction in the central nervous system. Traumatized people are not suffering from a disease in the normal sense of the word- they have become stuck in an aroused state. It is difficult if not impossible to function normally under these circumstances.”

Yes, when we are helpless, we fail in all this. But this is frozen in time because we do not descharge as readily and as easily as other animals. WE have an accumulation throough life. And this is not only about what we think is trauma. All little stresses function in the same way. We do not usually see it in ourselves, as we are used to ourselves.

But just watch at others. Each time someone reactionate in a surprising way or too much to what you said for example, it is because it touches something the mind has forgotten, but the body still reacts and speaks. We think we react to the present, but the past is there as well. The famous "here and now" is very difficult to reach because it is beyond our conscious efforts.