People Can Die As A Result Of Giving Up (a State Caused By Low Dopamine)

[Nokoni]

I will second that diamant does work although it does not have an acute effect and I only realized it worked after thinking back several times as to why I had had such a good couple of days and connecting it diamant usage earlier in the week. Strange stuff.

The only acute effect I noticed was sharper vision

Yeah basic energetics (thyroid, MB, etc.) is probably the best first line of defense, but diamant's dopaminergic effect, which can actually get uncomfortable if you don't need it, might have a place in tougher situations.

 

[Owen B]

Have you also considered an anti-opiate like Naloxone nasal spray?

I've experimented with Naltrexone but I didn't really like it. It might be a good thing to have around when I have cataplexies (kind of seizures). (Prying the stuff out of my PCP was an ordeal and a half, BTW).

But a Naloxone spray I haven't tried. I'll look into it.

 

[haidut]

Dr Raymond Peat...Hans Seyle...Ivan Pavlov...they say good environment is the best solution for learned helplessness... You can take drugs and supplements but if you don't take yourself out of bad environment these tools will not help you at all...your bad environment will continue to nullify any benefits you may get from drugs or supplements

No drug or supplement gives you the benefits of love
Feeling you get accomplishing things
Socialization

Agreed. The supplements/drugs are just there for people who do not have access to that environment. You'd be surprised at how lonely/isolated most people are. The environment is deliberately designed to isolate and thus kill (socially first and then physically).

 

[haidut]

I've experimented with Naltrexone but I didn't really like it. It might be a good thing to have around when I have cataplexies (kind of seizures). (Prying the stuff out of my PCP was an ordeal and a half, BTW).

But a Naloxone spray I haven't tried. I'll look into it.

Progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA and some other steroids also block the endorphins.

 

[haidut]

The highest chance of death for a man of my age in the culture I live in is suicide.

True. Alcohol/drug abuse is the second highest chance. Cancer and CVD closely follow. All a result of degraded social network and support, and poisons everywhere, especially food. See my new thread on soluble fiber for more info. This crap is in everything sold commercially, even in drinks like soda and some coffees.
Soluble Fiber Causes Liver Cancer, Insoluble And Antibiotics Prevent/stop It

 

[Owen B]

Progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA and some other steroids also block the endorphins.

You're probably right but there are a raft of different opioids and their receptors. I think that's why drugs like Naltrexone and Naloxone may not work in a lot of cases.

Another problem is that opioids (which ones I can't say) are involved in the process of healthy infant/caregiver attachments. The failure of healthy bonding around those chemicals is probably how later life drug dependencies occur. The same is true for serotonin. So is it always wise to knock these chemicals down?

I agree with you about serotonin's role in stress patterns but I wonder how it's possible to tell when they're necessary and when they're not. (Especially in terms of applications).

 

[Regina]

Ask any doctor if loss of hope can kill and he/she will laugh in your face. Even if you use the more scientific term "learned helplessness" you will still be laughed out of the room. Well, the study below shows that "give-up-itis" (GUI) is quite real and can reliably kill a person if it takes a strong enough hold. Perhaps more importantly, the study claims that the direct cause of giving up is dramatically lowered dopamine levels as a result of the inescapable stress/trauma. Given dopamine's perfect inverse relationship with serotonin, it becomes quite clear that high serotonin is anything but a state to be desired and any entity selling/promoting serotonergic drugs is participating in medical genocide. Unsurprisingly, the study mentions dopamine agonists as possible treatment of extreme cases of learned helplessness. For milder cases, simply reframing the problem in a more positive light could be enough to break free.
Furthermore, the study shows that it is events of chronic stress/defeat/inescapability that lead to the dopamine exhaustion and giving up. As such, initial mild apathy and withdrawal seen in people in early stages of learned helplessness is adaptive and beneficial, in an attempt to avoid the "defeating" event and thus replenish dopamine levels. Interestingly enough, the term "chronic social defeat" is extremely well-known in animal research of any kind (rodents, reptiles, amphibians, apes, etc) and is known as a reliable way to quickly induce chronic disease in ANY animal, including conditions such as diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer, Parkinson, CVD, etc. An example of such events would be public verbal, physical or emotional abuse by an individual with higher social status. Unsuccessful competition for job promotion, romantic partner, major sport event, or even being stuck in traffic while late for a VERY important meeting are other common examples of such social defeat events.
An even more pernicious and sinister approach is known as "chronic unpredictable mild stress" (CUMS) as animals subjected to it develop subtle metabolic changes over a long period of time that eventually lead to the same devastating diseases. Yet on paper, the animal is mostly healthy and the eventual disease cannot really be traced to any single event in the animal's life. An example of such events would be your bank charging you overdraft fees, pesky emails from your boss while on vacation, marketing calls at the least appropriate times, persistent "multitasking" leading to feelings of being overwhelmed with work, etc.
I think it is rather obvious for most forum users that most people in the Western world experience CUMS on a daily basis. As such, there should be no surprise or mystery as to the cause of the chronic diseases around us that kill so many (often young) people. What a perfect tool for the powers that be!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987718306145?via=ihub
"...People with reduced dopamine levels tend towards apathy, lack a zest for life and often have an impairment in routine actions such as walking which is normally slowed and observed as a shuffling gait [50]. This slow shuffling movement has been observed in PoWs and camp prisoners during stage II GUI and is a mark of defeat. Such motor movement is also observed in conditions such as Parkinson’s disease (PD) with patients showing a shuffling gait, stooped posture and bradykinesia. However, whereas PD is considered to be a multisystem neurodegenerative disorder with dopamine depletion occurring in the substantia nigra (SN), GUI appears to be more a single circuit dysfunction consequent upon DA disequilibrium in the nucleus accumbens. Whilst there is an indirect link between the NAc and the SN this is to the dorsal region rather than the ventrolateral region that is implicated in PD. The evidence suggests that PD and GUI have parallel architectures."

"...In certain clinical conditions differences in the severity of apathy is considered to be at least partly a dopamine-dependent syndrome [51]; aboulia is suggested to be a dopamine-related dysfunction [46], and DA agents are used successfully to counter apathy and treat psychic akinesia [47]. Functional brain imaging studies further suggest that the physiopathology of demotivation can, at least partially, be explained by a dysfunction of the dopaminergic system [52]. Given the concordance between apathetic, aboulic and psychic akinetic patients and stages IIIV GUI it is possible that GUI is also a DA-related dysfunction with the severity of GUI being associated with the level of depletion of DA in the ACC. Clinical studies show that as DA activity decreases behaviours disappear in the following sequence: spontaneous behaviour, internally guided behaviour, conditioned behaviour and externally guided behaviour [53] which is consistent with the observed progression of GUI syndrome. DA depletion is also associated with anhedonia that also presents in GUI and general anhedonia is associated with stress that is uncontrollable and unpredictable [54]."

"...GUI commonly occurs in a traumatic situation from which there is, or is perceived to be, no escape and over which a person has little or no influence. Essentially, the GUI victim sees him or herself as being defeated. Cruickshank [58] thought that many of the behavioural symptoms exhibited by his patients in the Japanese PoW camp at Changi were as much, ‘…the result of fighting a losing battle’ as of the disease. This cognitive appraisal of defeat in GUI victims is important as stress has differential effects on DA levels in the PFC and the NAc which depend on whether the stressful condition is perceived to be escapable or inescapable [58]."

"...The increase or decrease in DA transmission reflects different coping styles with high levels of NAc DA associated with an active coping response and inhibition of DA in the NAc being associated with a passive coping response. The active problem-focused approach, which targets the source of stress, is used when the stressor can be controlled or avoided, and the passive emotion-focused approach, that targets the emotional arousal that sustains stress responses, is employed when the stressor is uncontrollable or inescapable [61]. If active coping is not possible then sustained activation of cortical DA production leads to a profound inhibition of NAc DA release resulting in behavioural impairments and abnormalities in mechanisms of motivation, including withdrawal and apathy [60,62] that are comparable to those observed in GUI victims. The appraisal of the trauma as uncontrollable inhibits DA transmission in the NAc shifting the organism into passive coping to save energy and reduce risk [56]. Furthermore, this resultant withdrawal and inactivity may serve a ‘replenishing’ function [63] and supports the idea of withdrawal and apathy, observed in Stages I and II GUI, being an initial adaptive and protective mechanism. Similarly, in both human and animal studies, passive coping is associated with blunting stress-induced emotional arousal [64] which is consistent with field observations that passive behaviours were seen as a form of protection and as a necessary mechanism of self-defence [20,22]."

"...A common observation was that people died between three days to three weeks from the onset of a ‘fatal withdrawal’ or GUI if the person was not forced to respond to his environment [1]. It is possible to recover from even extreme stages of GUI as it is to recover from comparable clinical conditions of apathy, aboulia and psychic akinesia, although in the latter cases usually through administering DA agonists such as bromocriptine, ropinirole, etc. Clearly, such drug interventions are not available within a natural traumatic situation but other fieldexpedient methods for increasing motivation and recovering adaptive, goal-directed behaviour have been reported. Stage I GUI reversal can be achieved through self-motivation that is supported through previous experience or training; Stage II by more effortful self-motivation and external motivators, e.g. friends, family, duty, responsibility etc.; Stage III through strong external motivators, and early Stage IV through very strong external motivators although these may cease to be effective in the latter phase of Stage IV and early Stage V GUI."


People can die from giving up the fight
"...People can die simply because they've given up, life has beaten them and they feel defeat is inescapable, according to new research. The study, by Dr John Leach, a senior research fellow at the University of Portsmouth, is the first to describe the clinical markers for 'give-up-itis', a term used to describe what is known medically as psychogenic death. It usually follows a trauma from which a person thinks there is no escape, making death seem like the only rational outcome. If not arrested, death usually occurs three weeks after the first stage of withdrawal.

"...He describes in clinical detail the five stages leading to progressive psychological decline and suggests give-up-itis could stem from a change in a frontal-subcortical circuit of the brain governing how a person maintains goal-directed behaviour. The likely candidate in the brain is the anterior cingulate circuit, responsible for motivation and initiating goal-directed behaviours. He said: "Severe trauma might trigger some people's anterior cingulate circuit to malfunction. Motivation is essential for coping with life and if that fails, apathy is almost inevitable." Death isn't inevitable in someone suffering from give-up-itis and can be reversed by different things at each stage. The most common interventions are physical activity and/or a person being able to see a situation is at least partially within their control, both of which trigger the release of the feel-good chemical dopamine. "Reversing the give-up-itis slide towards death tends to come when a survivor finds or recovers a sense of choice, of having some control, and tends to be accompanied by that person licking their wounds and taking a renewed interest in life," he said."

How can this discussion be bridged to this? War is better than having no support network. Yes, but is there some other explanation through a Peat lens?

 

[haidut]

How can this discussion be bridged to this? War is better than having no support network. Yes, but is there some other explanation through a Peat lens?

Veterans miss war because it is a form of "addiction", based on low dopamine and high cortisol. Going to war temporarily increases dopamine just like alcohol but chronically exposed to war leads to even more CRH/cortisol and less dopamine.
Stress Leads To Lower Dopamine And More Drinking

Eventually it becomes PTSD with very high CRH and low cortisol. CHR is a highly inflammatory peptide and is probably the main cause (together with serotonin) in the high suicidal rate among veterans, as well as many brain diseases. Stress (duh) is the most potent inducer of CRH, and serotonin and CRH can increase each others' levels. If that doesn't make it obvious that stress directly causes disease/suicide then I don't have much hope for anybody with an MD degree.
Corticotropin-releasing hormone - Wikipedia
"...In the short term, CRH can suppress appetite, increase subjective feelings of anxiety, and perform other functions like boosting attention. Although the distal action of CRH is immunosuppression via the action of cortisol, CRH itself can actually heighten inflammation, a process being investigated in multiple sclerosis research."

 

[Regina]

Veterans miss war because it is a form of "addiction", based on low dopamine and high cortisol. Going to war temporarily increases dopamine just like alcohol but chronically exposed to war leads to even more CRH/cortisol and less dopamine. Eventually it becomes PTSD with very high CRH and low cortisol. CHR is a highly inflammatory peptide and is probably the main cause (together with serotonin) in the high suicidal rate among veterans, as well as many brain diseases. Stress (duh) is the most potent inducer of CRH, and serotonin and CRH can increase each others' levels. If that doesn't make it obvious that stress directly causes disease/suicide then I don't have much hope for anybody with an MD degree.
Corticotropin-releasing hormone - Wikipedia
"...In the short term, CRH can suppress appetite, increase subjective feelings of anxiety, and perform other functions like boosting attention. Although the distal action of CRH is immunosuppression via the action of cortisol, CRH itself can actually heighten inflammation, a process being investigated in multiple sclerosis research."

Really appreciate your answer. I was feeling for this man as he spoke and you've filled in what I thought is being lost on him.
Thank you.

 

[Owen B]

Progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA and some other steroids also block the endorphins.

As to the hormones, I've been experimenting with them since I started Peating but have not found much success.

But since I experimented with Gonadin lately I've found that my progesterone response has changed. I get energy from it now instead of a sedating effect so I count that as a plus.

The only other thing that has made a significant dent in the freeze is regular bag breathing. An immobility response is a massive brake on oxidative metabolism. The body literally goes into a kind of suspended animation. But bag breathing has increased my CO2 sensitivity and cut into the stupor and brain fog. It's been slow but steady improvement.

But Diamant or Selegiline is definitely on my list.

 

[REOSIRENS]

Shouting already before even seeing the drill. A useful reminder that the overconfident are often the first to fall.

View attachment 11035

It's not overconfidence it's just the drive to overcome life challenges... It's up to you to move forward(looking for better life) or standstill... ruminating the past...


"And mental activity that challenges obsession and rigidity might be the most important brain energizer. Pseudo-optimism, humor-as-therapy, has a certain value, but a deeper optimism involves a willingness to assimilate new information and to change plans accordingly."

Dr Raymond Peat

 

[milk]

I became sick because of scrupulosity (the Christian term for OCD) when I was 17 years old.

I still struggle with it, but it's way better now.

One big element of my scrupulosity was guilt over "digital piracy", which... in the age of broadband internet access, it's insane. Everyone pirates, even people who think they don't. A great deal of the videos we watch on Youtube have been uploaded without permission from the rightful "copyright owners".

The observable pattern is this: smart people pirate. Cinephiles torrent movies, music lovers use peer-to-peer software like Soulseek, gamers download ROMs and use emulators.

The smarter you are and the deeper your interest in these kinds of media, the more you will find the "legal" venues (Netflix, Spotify, Steam) to be unsatisfactory. They're generally very, very bad. I was aghast as how bad Netflix's movie selection was when I tried their service.

But most people don't have good or deep taste, and are satisfied with such services. Bring up piracy to them (particularly if they live in the United States), and they get scandalized. "You wouldn't steal a car", etc.

After I began peating I began thinking of the cultural diet in terms of a cell. Cells absorb nutrients indiscriminately. Curiosity seems to function like a cell. The best way to become truly knowledgeable about something is to be truly interested in it. Read one book and it will suggest 50 other books. If you truly are curious you will read voraciously, your knowledge will grow exponentially. This is the attitude that the smartest and most cultured people would advise one to have.

It doesn't matter if you did the "legal" thing and bought the books from Amazon (a global monopoly with a very fishy history) or if you downloaded them from a website like b-ok.org (favored by 4chan's literature board... again, the smartest people pirate).

And then there are books like "Against Intellectual Property", by Stefan Kinsella, and "Against Intellectual Monopoly", by Michelle Boldrin and David K. Levine, which show how dirty the history of "intellectual property" laws are and how nefarious such laws more often than not prove themselves to be. In short, in the absence of IP laws societies grow more cultured; but when such laws are implemented media monopolies tend to be favoured to the detriment of the populace.

I have been researching this stuff lately. I'm a lawful, obedient guy by temperament; it took a good deal of research to realize that the laws of my country (and of most countries) are actually insane and that to punctiliously follow them is pretty much suicide. (If you want to know how insane this issue gets, look up the "Special 301 Report". Essentially, through threat of economic sanctions, the United States are forcing the whole world to adopt stricter IP laws so that American monopolies may sell their wares to them. Big Pharma and Monsanto are among the companies behind this.)

So yeah, I guess I'm a libertarian now. It turns out the libertarians are right. In light of all this, a "F#ck the State" attitude strikes me as perfectly reasonable. Piracy as civil disobedience, if you will.

Sorry for the long post. I hope it rings a bell with someone out there.

 

[Nokoni]

It's not overconfidence it's just the drive to overcome life challenges... It's up to you to move forward(looking for better life) or standstill... ruminating the past...


"And mental activity that challenges obsession and rigidity might be the most important brain energizer. Pseudo-optimism, humor-as-therapy, has a certain value, but a deeper optimism involves a willingness to assimilate new information and to change plans accordingly."

Dr Raymond Peat

Wise words indeed. Thank you.

 

[lollipop]

"And mental activity that challenges obsession and rigidity might be the most important brain energizer. Pseudo-optimism, humor-as-therapy, has a certain value, but a deeper optimism involves a willingness to assimilate new information and to change plans accordingly."

Dr Raymond Peat

Love this quote @REOSIRENS - I want to put on my FB feed

 

[REOSIRENS]

"The inhibitory serotonergic "harm avoidance" system, and the opposing excitatory activating "novelty seeking" systems are constantly being influenced by many factors, including nutrition, hormones, environmental challenges and opportunities, social interactions, seasons, and the rhythm of night and day alternation.

Several kinds of research are now showing that the effects of the environment on the serotonergic system and its antagonists can influence every aspect of health, not just the personality."

Dr Raymond Peat

Serotonin is high in traumatic experiences and it just tells you to avoid things that you are not in control...tells you to retreat and isolate... If your physiological machinery is quite weak and needs to rest in short term it's useful...but when it traps you in this vicious circle of learned helplessness it will always tell you-world is mean gray and there is no interesting people to meet or talk... people are mean and boring...you don't need people in your life...all foreigners are dangerous...you will never succeed...you are not good enough...you don't look good enough...don't engage in a conversation because people will make fun of you

Best way to counter is by activating dopaminergic system:
Socialize
Sunlight
Going out(don't stay indoors if possible)
Have goals in life and try to achieve them
Travel
Meet new people
Hobbies Art
Finish College (it will help you to have more professional options in life)
Volunteering

 

[Dobbler]

"The inhibitory serotonergic "harm avoidance" system, and the opposing excitatory activating "novelty seeking" systems are constantly being influenced by many factors, including nutrition, hormones, environmental challenges and opportunities, social interactions, seasons, and the rhythm of night and day alternation.

Several kinds of research are now showing that the effects of the environment on the serotonergic system and its antagonists can influence every aspect of health, not just the personality."

Dr Raymond Peat

Serotonin is high in traumatic experiences and it just tells you to avoid things that you are not in control...tells you to retreat and isolate... If your physiological machinery is quite weak and needs to rest in short term it's useful...but when it traps you in this vicious circle of learned helplessness it will always tell you-world is mean gray and there is no interesting people to meet or talk... people are mean and boring...you don't need people in your life...all foreigners are dangerous...you will never succeed...you are not good enough...you don't look good enough...don't engage in a conversation because people will make fun of you

Best way to counter is by activating dopaminergic system:
Socialize
Sunlight
Going out(don't stay indoors if possible)
Have goals in life and try to achieve them
Travel
Meet new people
Hobbies Art
Finish College (it will help you to have more professional options in life)
Volunteering

This is very interesting. It's like chicken or egg situation. Which came first, high serotonin or stress/learned helplessness. It can go both ways.

In my case, i was a happy kid. But what i thinked pushed me over the edge was stressful job, very bad diet, little bit of overtraining and messing around with IF and couple antibacterial components. Boom, completely ****88 up. From then its been rollercoaster ride , and not for the better. 3 years and im still ****88 up, mentally and physically. Its a rough ride. Todays society is so ****88 up you can go from happy care free to completely unable to function in mere days once you reach your limit. And when that happens, "having goals in life" or "meet new people" is like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Makrosky]

Yeah but some traumas are definitely lasting and there is no escape for most, like being bald. I would say that's true chronic defeat. Even some fat people never lose the weight, and it's a never-ending battle. What would you do in those cases?

Very easy : accept the way you are. "A true chronic defeat" LOL!!! Your point of view is a true defeat!!

 

[SuperiorFatties]

Very easy : accept the way you are. "A true chronic defeat" LOL!!! Your point of view is a true defeat!!

You bald?

 

[Nokoni]

Chronic inescapable stress can certainly make life harder but I agree with many of the comments here that it is likely to be helpful to add in some new and different activities. Exercise is good but it doesn’t have to be a big deal. The idea is to reduce stress, not increase it. For anyone who doesn’t already exercise, just doing a little stretching would make a difference. Or read a book. Doesn’t have to be Ulysses, probably any book will do. Don’t have to read it x hours per day, or even finish it, but if it’s a change from current daily habits it’s likely to help. Physical books might be best. A walk outside is a good idea. Even once around the house or the apartment building is a start that will add a little benefit. And so on. Then whichever activities turn out to be more appealing, continue doing those. Enough little benefits and they start to add up. I think smaller goals that can give a nice feeling of accomplishment are a better way to get started.

And energetics is also important. To me it’s a very big deal. It’s what this place is mostly about and everything is easier when the cells are charged up.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Chronic inescapable stress can certainly make life harder but I agree with many of the comments here that it is likely to be helpful to add in some new and different activities. Exercise is good but it doesn’t have to be a big deal. The idea is to reduce stress, not increase it. For anyone who doesn’t already exercise, just doing a little stretching would make a difference. Or read a book. Doesn’t have to be Ulysses, probably any book will do. Don’t have to read it x hours per day, or even finish it, but if it’s a change from current daily habits it’s likely to help. Physical books might be best. A walk outside is a good idea. Even once around the house or the apartment building is a start that will add a little benefit. And so on. Then whichever activities turn out to be more appealing, continue doing those. Enough little benefits and they start to add up. I think smaller goals that can give a nice feeling of accomplishment are a better way to get started.

And energetics is also important. To me it’s a very big deal. It’s what this place is mostly about and everything is easier when the cells are charged up.

I think this is a wonderful suggestion.
I'd add to this that we live in a culture that fails to value small things.
so "exercise" involves herculean efforts
"reading" involves something "useful/meaningful"
"meditation" involves sitting like a monk for hours on end.
(@Nokoni I appreciated you noting this)
One of the THE most pivotal points in my recovery which has been horrifically slow
and continues to this day...... but has been as consistent as the day is long and the sun/moon rise
was the moment I realized that every single effort on my own behalf no matter how small
was ENORMOUSLY significant. My yoga practice began with literally crawling out of bed and unrolling my yoga mat and sitting on my mat for a few
seconds or minutes and crawling back in bed. Just getting to the mat became a win.
The voices in my head would scream how "that's nothing".
It was embarrassing even though nobody even knew.
but just the act of allowing the most smallest of self affirming actions COUNT
made more difference than anything else.
If all you can do is make sure you eat ONE thing tomorrow you know you want to
Or if all you can do is brush 2 teeth
the acknowledgement that every act of self affirmation no matter how micro matters
is a radical act.