Escaping Learned Helplessness

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
 

Blinkyrocket

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
474
Age
27
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.
 

EIRE24

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
1,792
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.[/quote

So what is the answer to the problems? I think a lot of people here are like what you have described. Have you turned around these problems?
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
EIRE24 said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.[/quote

So what is the answer to the problems? I think a lot of people here are like what you have described. Have you turned around these problems?

The best way I can explain it is that the body has a natural set point and various externalities in the environment can suppress or express enzymes and genetic codes depending on your perception of your state of wellbeing.

The only route out is by accepting that you have hit a glass ceiling in your life and you need to, on all aspects, raise your game. The aforementioned state is a state of your emotional intelligence that is telling you 'this is how the world works' when most of it is probably misplaced or leads to the wrong outcomes. It is a vulnerable state of low energy where the brain perhaps is trying to control things that cannot be controlled, or you have hit a point where avenues seem to be out of reach.

Thyroid hormone alone did not solve my problems, but haidut's threads here are spot on, as is '4peatssake' comments above.

Serotonin is a problem because while stimulating ACTH it will prevent entry of raw materials into the mitochondria, especially when the brain is 'hypometabolic'.

If you look anxious it is because both your thyroid AND adrenals are low and possibly atrophied. In this state all I can advise is that it takes a fairly long time and most importantly you have to find your unique spot in the world for which no amount of forum discussion can compensate.

I know Ray is against cardio exercise but I find it is an effective strategy to want to exercise, sweat out the toxins and push those adrenals so that ACTH and norepiphrene rather than serotonin control pregnenolone intake. Exercise + motivation is good for expanding adrenals.

Many people here will be consuming way too much sugar etc with little outcome. This is because mitochondria under a prolonged period will be expecting fats. Even then, don't underestimate the power of mindset in whether cells accept or reject fats.

In order to strengthen the adrenals you must target them directly with a mindset that says 'I am not defeated' and also avoid thyroid for now so that as according to Hans Seyle, you can enlarge the adrenals out of atrophy. Under adrenal atrophy anything that stimulates thyroid activity is counter-productive.

Atrophy occurs because at some point either chronic or acute, you came to accept that the external environment has irrational outcomes. Your prefrontal cortex has therefore repeatedly assessed that the world does not make sense (which often it doesn't but is irrelevant to how you choose to live your life) and becomes hypometabolic.

The problem most people struggle to get out of this grip is because the environment never seems to change for the better and they cannot assess a positive route out of their low steady state of energy. So they sit, dormant, in a state of hibernation.

If a person responds poorly to thyroid hormone they should try transdermal (NOT oral) pregnenolone, and/or get a blood panel for progesterone and T3. They might benefit from mitochondrial biogenesis supplements but the most important area is how they perceive building a new social status and position in the environment. The best and easiest route I can advise is the gym along with coconut oil MCTs, cypro, protein and possibly caffeine.

In contradiction to the theory that the body loves sugar, if the brain is hypometabolic it WILL store sugar as fat and not boost metabolism.

Mindset + ACTH (not serotonin, but low blood sugar is fine IMO, along with plenty of cholesterol (fats and protein)) strengthen the adrenals.

When I say low adrenals I don't mean low adrenaline, I mean low progesterone/pregnenolone. This is adrenal atrophy. They become almost permanently stimulated by serotonin with continuous negative feedback from cortisol and hence shrink.
 

Blinkyrocket

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
474
Age
27
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.
How do you tell that from a picture? o_O
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.
How do you tell that from a picture? o_O

Your subdued expression.
 

Blinkyrocket

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
474
Age
27
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.
How do you tell that from a picture? o_O

Your subdued expression.
Ah -_-
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
The real underlying problem in this scenario is getting the liver up to speed. Because when thyroid and adrenals are low, glycogen storage is poor, fatty acids are constantly elevated, and without an increased adrenal mitochondrial capacity for pregnenolone, overall basal metabolic rate (inc. liver) will not raise.

It is backed up so far that each feedback mechanism is not being signaled downstream to keep metabolism of protective hormones up constantly.

Your mind has to see a route out, then you have to action that route consistently for months, while feeding LDL cholesterol, while not letting sleep undo all your progress. The wrong type of sleep has a nasty habit of reversing your metabolism if you aren't strong willed enough to keep pushing forward.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
ive heard that even a few seconds in the presence of Ray Peat graces one and cures learned helplessness, pilgrims flock from all over the world
 

EIRE24

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
1,792
kineticz said:
EIRE24 said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
kineticz said:
Blinkyrocket said:
4peatssake said:
Blinkyrocket said:
Does wanting to be in control of everything (breathing, heart rate, etc.) count as learned helplessness? I've been unable to let go of control and actually get scared sometimes when I relax and feel like I'm not paying attention to my breathing so at any moment my heart could start pounding 160 bpm
That sounds more like anxiety not learned helplessness.
With learned helplessness there is more an inclination not to have the energy to make an effort although one can suffer from both as well. The lack of energy is a form of giving up - futility, what's the use?

Regardless, its more important to assess symptoms and respond to them than know what they're called. I say this from my own experience having both spent too much time trying to figure stuff out without proper action and then on the flip side, too much time throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Once I settled into more of a balance, things got easier to access and address. It takes time and great effort because for the most part we are going against the grain and mindset of most of the world. It's an enormous shift in consciousness when taken fully.
I didn't think it was learned helplessness and I kept telling everyone who says I'm still anxious looking that I don't actually feel anxious, is it possible that in order to get over agoraphobia I buried my conscious FEELING of anxiety but that it's still there? That was a rhetorical question mostly but still.

Because I don't feel anxious, gosh dang it, no feeling of pounding heart or other things related to adrenaline.

In your picture you look slightly adrenaline/serotonin/low adrenals.
Adrenaline and low adrenals?

Yes, I have been like that before, it is due to bottomed out adrenals/adrenal atrophy, causing a difficult situation to restore pregnenolone due to high fatty acids and low respiration. It is made worse by social isolation. Could be high estrogen/sluggish liver. It is lipolysis. It requires in my mind an attempt to raise all areas of life participatory.[/quote

So what is the answer to the problems? I think a lot of people here are like what you have described. Have you turned around these problems?

The best way I can explain it is that the body has a natural set point and various externalities in the environment can suppress or express enzymes and genetic codes depending on your perception of your state of wellbeing.

The only route out is by accepting that you have hit a glass ceiling in your life and you need to, on all aspects, raise your game. The aforementioned state is a state of your emotional intelligence that is telling you 'this is how the world works' when most of it is probably misplaced or leads to the wrong outcomes. It is a vulnerable state of low energy where the brain perhaps is trying to control things that cannot be controlled, or you have hit a point where avenues seem to be out of reach.

Thyroid hormone alone did not solve my problems, but haidut's threads here are spot on, as is '4peatssake' comments above.

Serotonin is a problem because while stimulating ACTH it will prevent entry of raw materials into the mitochondria, especially when the brain is 'hypometabolic'.

If you look anxious it is because both your thyroid AND adrenals are low and possibly atrophied. In this state all I can advise is that it takes a fairly long time and most importantly you have to find your unique spot in the world for which no amount of forum discussion can compensate.

I know Ray is against cardio exercise but I find it is an effective strategy to want to exercise, sweat out the toxins and push those adrenals so that ACTH and norepiphrene rather than serotonin control pregnenolone intake. Exercise + motivation is good for expanding adrenals.

Many people here will be consuming way too much sugar etc with little outcome. This is because mitochondria under a prolonged period will be expecting fats. Even then, don't underestimate the power of mindset in whether cells accept or reject fats.

In order to strengthen the adrenals you must target them directly with a mindset that says 'I am not defeated' and also avoid thyroid for now so that as according to Hans Seyle, you can enlarge the adrenals out of atrophy. Under adrenal atrophy anything that stimulates thyroid activity is counter-productive.

Atrophy occurs because at some point either chronic or acute, you came to accept that the external environment has irrational outcomes. Your prefrontal cortex has therefore repeatedly assessed that the world does not make sense (which often it doesn't but is irrelevant to how you choose to live your life) and becomes hypometabolic.

The problem most people struggle to get out of this grip is because the environment never seems to change for the better and they cannot assess a positive route out of their low steady state of energy. So they sit, dormant, in a state of hibernation.

If a person responds poorly to thyroid hormone they should try transdermal (NOT oral) pregnenolone, and/or get a blood panel for progesterone and T3. They might benefit from mitochondrial biogenesis supplements but the most important area is how they perceive building a new social status and position in the environment. The best and easiest route I can advise is the gym along with coconut oil MCTs, cypro, protein and possibly caffeine.

In contradiction to the theory that the body loves sugar, if the brain is hypometabolic it WILL store sugar as fat and not boost metabolism.

Mindset + ACTH (not serotonin, but low blood sugar is fine IMO, along with plenty of cholesterol (fats and protein)) strengthen the adrenals.

When I say low adrenals I don't mean low adrenaline, I mean low progesterone/pregnenolone. This is adrenal atrophy. They become almost permanently stimulated by serotonin with continuous negative feedback from cortisol and hence shrink.



So hold up....we should eat fat and protein and not sugar because a messed up metabolism and endocrine system will store it all as fat? I'm not sure what fat and protein would do to help the body get out of the situation if you just avoid sugar? I think you answered my question but im not sure I understand what you are saying as there are a couple statements that don't make sense due to what Ray peat says?
 

EIRE24

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
1,792
pboy said:
ive heard that even a few seconds in the presence of Ray Peat graces one and cures learned helplessness, pilgrims flock from all over the world


Haha, I can find the funny side of it but at the same time pretty annoying all the trolling when people are trying to solve things. I guess it's different if you have recovered and are in good health but frustrating to see you take the piss most of the time.
 

TheHound

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
504
kineticz said:
The real underlying problem in this scenario is getting the liver up to speed. Because when thyroid and adrenals are low, glycogen storage is poor, fatty acids are constantly elevated, and without an increased adrenal mitochondrial capacity for pregnenolone, overall basal metabolic rate (inc. liver) will not raise.

It is backed up so far that each feedback mechanism is not being signaled downstream to keep metabolism of protective hormones up constantly.

Your mind has to see a route out, then you have to action that route consistently for months, while feeding LDL cholesterol, while not letting sleep undo all your progress. The wrong type of sleep has a nasty habit of reversing your metabolism if you aren't strong willed enough to keep pushing forward.

so in your opinion, how does one achieve the right type of sleep?
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
EIRE24 said:
So hold up....we should eat fat and protein and not sugar because a messed up metabolism and endocrine system will store it all as fat? I'm not sure what fat and protein would do to help the body get out of the situation if you just avoid sugar? I think you answered my question but im not sure I understand what you are saying as there are a couple statements that don't make sense due to what Ray peat says?

TheHound said:
so in your opinion, how does one achieve the right type of sleep?

Fat and protein compose LDL cholesterol. Sugar/fructose only raises LDL cholesterol because it spares fatty acid synthesis and release. Cholesterol is not made of sugar, so raising LDL cholesterol while targeting the adrenals with ACTH (not serotonin) is a good way that works for me to raise their output. When blood sugar is low but cholesterol is being provided, the progesterone adrenal pathway is likely to be most activated.

I have noticed that if I reduce serotonin but promote low liver glycogen and consume protein and fats, my adrenals respond much better when I then attempt to raise PROG/DHEA and implement T3.

If I consume fruit juice for a while and then add T3, I notice the adrenals only output a limited amount before I get symptoms of low cortisol/low cholesterol.

Some people who's metabolic capacity is higher will benefit from the stress hormone sparing that sugar provides, which backfills the pregnenolone pathways inside the mitochondria.

For others, my opinion is that further sugar intake just makes them fat without raising metabolism. However, if you are willing to gain weight then the sugar should in theory reduce the damage of cells outer membrane from PUFA. This is a tricky situation because chronically elevating sugar is known to create oxidative stress, and there is no guarantee that swapping sugar for fatty acids in the bloodstream will sufficiently repair and restore mitochondrial density enough for worthwhile increases in pregnenolone capacity and therefore metabolism.

The adrenals in particular only enlarge during stress, preferably ACTH and low blood sugar. This has to tie in with a winning mindset rather than thinking of that stress as a chore. So it has to be a goal you want to achieve. Winning mindset + ACTH enlarges adrenal output, losing attitude + ACTH causes adrenal atrophy.

That is the only way to reduce the helpless look that the above member has, not sugar. Some people just weren't born with genetically strong adrenal/liver output. It might increase cellular health but no amount of sugar is going to increase cellular capacity.

It is important to distinguish between the two in my opinion.


Regarding sleep, pregnenolone in the brain is required for stage 3 deep sleep. This can either be done by transdermal pregnenolone, and/or T3, and/or sugar and salt before bed. Also minimising the spike in prolactin, cortisol, histamine, serotonin are crucial. If cells are to repair at night they must still respire, and the aforementioned stress hormones prevent respiration. Cypro seems to be the latest hit at the minute.

When those stress hormones are blocking all the repair work, that is when sleep is having an adverse effect. I can vouch that sleep isn't always restorative and in that scenario it's better to sleep less hours that night but get an early night the next, rather than sleeping in. If you work night shifts then sorry, that is just the nature of the work.

As explained above the response depends on how far upstream or downstream your protective hormones and adrenals are in terms of hyper or atrophy.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
kineticz said:
I have noticed that if I reduce serotonin but promote low liver glycogen and consume protein and fats, my adrenals respond much better when I then attempt to raise PROG/DHEA and implement T3.

Okay but you can only do that because you've loaded up on sugar in the past, I think. You will be living on borrowed time.

Regarding sleep, pregnenolone in the brain is required for stage 3 deep sleep. This can either be done by transdermal pregnenolone, and/or T3, and/or sugar and salt before bed.

If I eat sugar before bed, I can't get out of bed in the morning. Which eventually is worse than having short nights.
 

EIRE24

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
1,792
kineticz said:
EIRE24 said:
So hold up....we should eat fat and protein and not sugar because a messed up metabolism and endocrine system will store it all as fat? I'm not sure what fat and protein would do to help the body get out of the situation if you just avoid sugar? I think you answered my question but im not sure I understand what you are saying as there are a couple statements that don't make sense due to what Ray peat says?

TheHound said:
so in your opinion, how does one achieve the right type of sleep?

Fat and protein compose LDL cholesterol. Sugar/fructose only raises LDL cholesterol because it spares fatty acid synthesis and release. Cholesterol is not made of sugar, so raising LDL cholesterol while targeting the adrenals with ACTH (not serotonin) is a good way that works for me to raise their output. When blood sugar is low but cholesterol is being provided, the progesterone adrenal pathway is likely to be most activated.

I have noticed that if I reduce serotonin but promote low liver glycogen and consume protein and fats, my adrenals respond much better when I then attempt to raise PROG/DHEA and implement T3.

If I consume fruit juice for a while and then add T3, I notice the adrenals only output a limited amount before I get symptoms of low cortisol/low cholesterol.

Some people who's metabolic capacity is higher will benefit from the stress hormone sparing that sugar provides, which backfills the pregnenolone pathways inside the mitochondria.

For others, my opinion is that further sugar intake just makes them fat without raising metabolism. However, if you are willing to gain weight then the sugar should in theory reduce the damage of cells outer membrane from PUFA. This is a tricky situation because chronically elevating sugar is known to create oxidative stress, and there is no guarantee that swapping sugar for fatty acids in the bloodstream will sufficiently repair and restore mitochondrial density enough for worthwhile increases in pregnenolone capacity and therefore metabolism.

The adrenals in particular only enlarge during stress, preferably ACTH and low blood sugar. This has to tie in with a winning mindset rather than thinking of that stress as a chore. So it has to be a goal you want to achieve. Winning mindset + ACTH enlarges adrenal output, losing attitude + ACTH causes adrenal atrophy.

That is the only way to reduce the helpless look that the above member has, not sugar. Some people just weren't born with genetically strong adrenal/liver output. It might increase cellular health but no amount of sugar is going to increase cellular capacity.

It is important to distinguish between the two in my opinion.


Regarding sleep, pregnenolone in the brain is required for stage 3 deep sleep. This can either be done by transdermal pregnenolone, and/or T3, and/or sugar and salt before bed. Also minimising the spike in prolactin, cortisol, histamine, serotonin are crucial. If cells are to repair at night they must still respire, and the aforementioned stress hormones prevent respiration. Cypro seems to be the latest hit at the minute.

When those stress hormones are blocking all the repair work, that is when sleep is having an adverse effect. I can vouch that sleep isn't always restorative and in that scenario it's better to sleep less hours that night but get an early night the next, rather than sleeping in. If you work night shifts then sorry, that is just the nature of the work.

As explained above the response depends on how far upstream or downstream your protective hormones and adrenals are in terms of hyper or atrophy.


Ok, some of that has gone well over my head but I appreciate the lengthy answer.

So for someone that has under eaten and over trained for the last 2-3 years and is trying to repair the damage done and recover a good metabolism you'd advise fat and protein over sugar intake? I thought the whole process was trying to switch the body back over to burning sugar for energy rather than fat? I'd love to hear what you'd advise for someone in my situation as I'm not sure the above does?
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Such_Saturation said:
If I eat sugar before bed, I can't get out of bed in the morning. Which eventually is worse than having short nights.

That's because your adrenal/ACTH output is too low according to the circadian cycle.

Which is what I explained above regarding sleep downregulating adrenal strength and sugar doing the same.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
kineticz said:
Such_Saturation said:
If I eat sugar before bed, I can't get out of bed in the morning. Which eventually is worse than having short nights.

That's because your adrenal/ACTH output is too low according to the circadian cycle.

Which is what I explained above regarding sleep downregulating adrenal strength and sugar doing the same.

But then why do you suggest sugar consumption before bed?
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Such_Saturation said:
Okay but you can only do that because you've loaded up on sugar in the past, I think. You will be living on borrowed time.

That's the point of doing it. It is borrowed time but enlarged adrenals will have greater margin for output.
 

kineticz

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
496
Age
35
Location
West Midlands, GB
Such_Saturation said:
kineticz said:
Such_Saturation said:
If I eat sugar before bed, I can't get out of bed in the morning. Which eventually is worse than having short nights.

That's because your adrenal/ACTH output is too low according to the circadian cycle.

Which is what I explained above regarding sleep downregulating adrenal strength and sugar doing the same.

But then why do you suggest sugar consumption before bed?

You didn't seem to read my posts.

In some people sugar backfills the stress pathways, in others it mimics adrenal hormones (maintain blood sugar) while downregulating adrenal output.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom