Bringing To Attention The Dark Side Of Dairy

[opson123]

I added the skim in at the end. I listened to the interview when it came out and wrote that off memory from almost a month ago and mixed in with the rest if my memories of Peat quotes.

1 or 2% is not important and labeled differently in every country the point is that he doesn’t drink full cream because it ends up being too much fat and put on weight, thats what he said. Your derailing the thread because I wrote it because the OP said ray drinks organic milk or clean, local but doesnt. I don’t have time for this and regret ever typing anything

I don't understand your anger. I wanted to know where he said he drinks skim milk. You said it's in the interview. I listened to it and there's no mention of skim milk at all. You got it wrong, but it's not something to get angry over. Just an honest mistake.

 

[Herbie]

I don't understand your anger. I wanted to know where he said he drinks skim milk. You said it's in the interview. I listened to it and there's no mention about about skim milk at all which is what I was specifically interested in. You got it wrong, but it's not something to get angry over. Just an honest mistake.

I wasn’t angry, my apologies.

In this link he says 1% milk

 

[Pdohlen]

Coffee Contains Opioid Antagonists

Drink coffee with your milk...

 

[schultz]

So just imagine how unhealthy these animals are under immense amounts of psychological and physical stress, eating only grains and PUFA contaminated with aflatoxin, and living in their own feces essentially, i doubt these animals are very good at detoxifying really anything given their state and living situations,

Shoot eh! I always would have thought he would have had a locally sourced dairy, even with this being said is this still the best option regardless if peat consumes it, some of this stuff is concerning, i mean if you dont react negatively to dairy i guess i wouldnt see an issue

Interesting post. I do well with milk (both generic and from the livestock I have), but I enjoy the discussion none-the-less.

I don't know how it is in the States, but dairy cows tend to eat hay and grass mainly with a specific daily ration of grain. Most farmers know that you can't feed a ruminant animal only grain or it will die. I had a goat get into a bucket of corn (it opened it...) and ate quite a bit of it and almost died (because of the gas it causes in their digestive tract). I had to put a rubber tube down its throat and poured MCT oil down which apparently prevents foaming in the GI (any oil will do but I don't have any corn oil or whatever at my place, and I wouldn't subject a goat to that anyway!). I feel as though these animals must be in decent health in order to be able to have offspring and be milked daily. Most farmers keep their barns somewhat clean. I think the animals they use as meat they tend to treat a lot worse as they don't care about their health. Lastly, the milk in Ontario (where I live) comes from many small farms. Some farms will let their cows out to graze. There are a few of these down the street from me and they don't own that many cows. Anyway, like I said, I am not sure what it's like in the States.

 

[schultz]

Casein inhibits zinc absorbtion as well which is huge in any illness.

I believe milk increases absorption of zinc.

 

[ExCarniv]

Coffee Contains Opioid Antagonists

Drink coffee with your milk...

Always.

Coffee with milk and sugar is an unbeatable combination, milk by itself or black coffee, doesn't feel th the same.

The second place go to milk and cocoa powder.

 

[schultz]

Casein inhibits zinc absorbtion as well which is huge in any illness.

I believe milk increases absorption of zinc.

We discussed it in this thread -> Does High Calcium Intake Deplete Zinc?

Drink coffee with your milk...

Always.

Coffee with milk and sugar is an unbeatable combination, milk by itself or black coffee, doesn't feel th the same.

The second place go to milk and cocoa powder.

This is almost exclusively how I consume milk. Maybe it helps? I also have hot chocolate too! I use chocolate chips instead of cocoa though.

 

[TheBeard]

Hey guys, before i start this off i just want to say i 100% support Peat and what he stands for in terms of dairy and calcium, i notice what he says works, when i eat a lot of calcium i get a huge metabolic boost,

but one thing i really wanted to bring to light in this forum is the real downsides or nasty side of dairy that not too many folks seem to be discussing,

what prompted me to do this is i'm a huge dairy consumer, 2L of skim milk or tons of fat free yogurt and lots of cheese,
the issue is i have extremely severe bowel issues, something what i speculate to be crohn's, i get hard swelling in my gut liver and intestines area, my skin goes almost pale jaundice, i get horrible brain fog and really bad B.O. essentially all of the horrible endotoxin symptoms,

and i notice this EVERYTIME i go really hard on dairy and load up on lots of it,
so i get extremely sick like someone with crohn's would horrible fatigue bad skin hair loss etc, then every time i cut out dairy things seem to improve real fast,

so i did a little bit of digging, and while there's not much out there (likely due to the dairy industry covering their tracks) i came across a few things i wanted to share to open a discussion on here and get some feedback,

so Haidut made a post on here saying crohn's and collitis have been tied to fungi and bacteria implicating it's possible it could be completely bacterial based (combined with the hosts response to inflammation like fibrosis etc)

one of the microbes that the finger was pointed at was the mycobacterium paratuberculosis.

Now if you do any research on this M.A.P. bacteria, you will notice it's ALWAYS implicated to be sourced largely from dairy products as the main source of contamination,

So bottom line M.A.P. - the mycobacterium has been said to be thee bacterial cause of crohn's because it was noted that infection with this bacteria in cows caused the cow version of crohn's essentially which they call John's disease.

So if that bacteria essentially causes crohn's in cows, and its contaminated largely in dairy products (and not eliminated by pasteurization) who's to say it isn't doing the same or at least driving an extensive inflammatory process with endotoxin,

has anyone ever noticed the amount of people on the Peat forum that report so many problems with dairy? they go back and forth like myself between their own belief and Peat's advice with dairy.

Now with all this being said i would like to say i 100% agree with Peat on dairy BUT, i think we should also think for ourselves like he says and let our own judgement pass on something uninfluenced by the words of others.

One thing we need to remember is Peat likely has access to the highest quality clean dairy products where as most of us are drinking the commercialized garbage thats been reported to have fecal contamination, aflatoxin, xenoestrogens, etc I could go on.

So with that being said should we really consume EXCESSIVE amounts of dairy if it is commercialized and possibly causing major issues and largely contributing to the inflammatory process.

Everywhere you look on the internet you see an association between dairy causing dysbiosis and leaky gut, and while a lot of stuff is just vegan propoganda, on the flip side, it's actually EXTREMELY difficult to find conclusive studies on dairy because the dairy industry is so powerful in terms of influencing the outcomes and words of these studies that cannot be denied.

Besides the M.A.P. species i mentioned there's been so many other pathogenic bacteria reported to be in milk and dairy products, and personally when i consume large amounts of commercialized dairy i feel like a big bag of bacterial overgrowth, just bad body odour poor skin, swollen gut etc.

I'm going to link a few studies / threads / articles that kind of sparked my interest and motivation to create this thread, let me know what you guys think,

i'd love to hear feedback and other peoples experiences with dairy,

basically i would really just like to discuss the extensive downsides to commercialized dairy vs organic and it's possible negative implications on human health specifically gut health and endotoxin,

considering us Peat followers on the forum are consuming more dairy than anyone else, i really think we should bring our heads together and discuss this because i feel like it needs to be addressed,

the fecal contamination, possible fungal spores, aflatoxin, bacteria plastics, xenoestrogens, pesticides etc. let's dig it all up!

Peat has actually mentioned this himself too is "organic" or local dairy is always best, i just feel he may not put enough of an emphasis on it, maybe these things about pathogenic bacteria in commercial dairy hasn't been brought to his attention much.

it's very difficult to find studies that will actually come out and state these implications of these negatives on human health, so i will post some of these links below, let me know what you guys think, let's take a much closer look at all the downsides to commercial dairy that doesn't get addressed much on here and discuss how it may or may not be affecting all of our health due to our mass consumption,

here's a conclusive quote from one of the studies,

"Unacceptable levels of Enterobacter spp. and Escherichia coli were found in most of the samples. Effective measures to ensure safe milk for human consumption such as the phosphatase test and methylene blue reduction test should be routinely performed on each batch of milk processed by dairy plants."

-Also note, some of these studies examine milk from different countries so it may not be all universal, however it still gives us a broad insight,

and last thing i want to mention, is Peat always says animals are essentially like detoxification systems, and that they inactivate most toxins to prevent them from reaching things like the milk, HOWEVER, we know that organisms that are not healthy do not have good detoxification capabilities, he said this with humans, any stress kills the enzymes needed to detoxify like the glucoronic acid pathway i think he mentioned,

So just imagine how unhealthy these animals are under immense amounts of psychological and physical stress, eating only grains and PUFA contaminated with aflatoxin, and living in their own feces essentially, i doubt these animals are very good at detoxifying really anything given their state and living situations,

it really seems like local or organic clean milk really may be the only option for improving health with dairy... at least from the way it's looking.

Fungi / Bacteria, Not Autoimmunity, Cause IBD (Chron's, UC) And IBS

Microbial Contamination in Milk Quality and Health Risk of the Consumers of Raw Milk and Dairy Products | IntechOpen

https://www.researchgate.net/public...cts_occurrence_and_recent_challenges_A_review

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308294887_Bacterial_Contamination_of_Dairy_Products

The microbial content of unexpired pasteurized milk from selected supermarkets in a developing country

https://www.researchgate.net/public...UCTS_A_CASE_STUDY_BACAU_DISTRICT_AREA_ROMANIA

Has nothing to do with Ray Peat getting access to the cleanest dairy or not.
I have access to raw grass fed organic milk, it still makes me turn yellow and gives me horrible bloating and diarrhea

 

[TheBeard]

I don't understand your anger. I wanted to know where he said he drinks skim milk. You said it's in the interview. I listened to it and there's no mention of skim milk at all. You got it wrong, but it's not something to get angry over. Just an honest mistake.

She doesn't seem angry at all.
Your framing

 

[Jennifer]

I see. Thanks for answering!

You're welcome! :)

Always.

Coffee with milk and sugar is an unbeatable combination, milk by itself or black coffee, doesn't feel th the same.

The second place go to milk and cocoa powder.

Do you like maple syrup? Milk and maple syrup is a yummy combination IMO. It's like the milk at the bottom of a bowl of cereal. :)

I don't know how it is in the States, but dairy cows tend to eat hay and grass mainly with a specific daily ration of grain. Most farmers know that you can't feed a ruminant animal only grain or it will die. I feel as though these animals must be in decent health in order to be able to have offspring and be milked daily. Most farmers keep their barns somewhat clean. I think the animals they use as meat they tend to treat a lot worse as they don't care about their health. Lastly, the milk in Ontario (where I live) comes from many small farms. Some farms will let their cows out to graze. There are a few of these down the street from me and they don't own that many cows. Anyway, like I said, I am not sure what it's like in the States.

It's the same here in New Hampshire. I'm surrounded by both large scale and small scale farms and neighbors who have cows, donkeys, goats, horses etc. and the animals are out grazing all day, except for the coldest part of the winter and when the ground is covered in snow. We even have quite a few 100% grass-based biodynamic farms and the calfs are kept with the mothers in the barn (something I greatly appreciate). I even know of popular brands like Organic Valley source their milk from small, local farms. In terms of treatment (looking at it through a vegan lense), the only thing I'm not sure of is if they all breed via a romp in the hay with a bull (lol) or artificial insemination. I just know that none of the many farms around me or that I have visited look anything like what is seen in vegan documentaries. The farms don't even smell, which was a shock to me when I started consuming animal proteins again after fracturing.

Not that farmers don't care about the cows more than just them being an investment, but they are an investment and so it's wise for them to care for their herds, which is something I believe Ray has acknowledged and could be one reason why he doesn't have an issue with drinking commercial milk.

 

[opson123]

She doesn't seem angry at all.
Your framing

Yeah, anger was probably a wrong word. She also said she wasn't angry. :)

Don't know why I would try to frame her though?

 

[Francisco]

Do these same critiques apply to cheese and butter?

 

[Cameron]

I see a lot of people have a better time when they simply switch brands. I think finding a milk that is free from gums and for some non homogenized with the cream and fresh seems to be best even if it’s pasteurized or low temp pasteurized. Quality of animal is important also I seem to digest milk better when it’s room temp or warm with honey.

 

[Inaut]

@schultz thanks mate. Good posts (I also live in Ontario )

 

[reality]

Do you guys think fermented dairy (yogurt, cheese) negates the casein opioid effect since the bacteria help break down/hydrolyse the protein already?

I have a bad reaction to milk but can tolerate Greek yogurt, and it’s been a staple of mine lately. The FAGE brand also has l casei bacteria strain which I assume also helps to hydrolyse the caseins, making them much more tolerable

 

[Xemnoraq]

@schultz thanks mate. Good posts (I also live in Ontario )

@schultz thats awesome guys im from ontario too!! Aha this makes things easier, what brands of milk do you guys drink? And how do you find it makes you feel?

Sealtest and natrel are pretty much the only options here, i always have such mixed results theres never any consistancy with feeling good, and Ray has mentioned actually how milk can be allergenic in some cases with factory farming because your not drinking the milk of the same cow its usually multiple cows milk mixed into one 2L container, so regarding pathogens etc. Its so hard to track and get consistancy for things like things,

If one of the cows is infected with MAP or has johnes disease, then you will never know because some containers could have milk from healthy non infected cows and other containers could have milk from a cow infected with MAP and johnes disease, honestly this could be one of the reasons why sometimes i drink it and feel amazing then the same brand and everything ill have a horrible experience with it next time and the cycle goes on and on

 

[Runenight201]

Coffee Contains Opioid Antagonists

Drink coffee with your milk...

For real...

do people eat meat raw with no salt? Onions non sautéed with mushrooms and garlic? Bread with no butter!

The human genius lies in our ability to complement food to negate the ill effects of certain foods and synergistically combine their ingredients to create an ultra palatable, ultra healthy dish! If only one spends enough time in the kitchen, learning the tricks of the trade...

Coffee with milk and maple syrup is my anti-depressant but at the same time my amphetamine. If I want to go run forever that’s what I’m drinking.

for all other, milder applications of milk, may I recommend the ole tea, milk, and honey? A little calmer, yet equally as cranially pleasant. It’ll take you to the promised land!

another little secret of milk, is to put just a dash into a tomato soup with onions, garlic, spices, and salt... talk about calming an upset stomach!

 

[ExCarniv]

do people eat meat raw with no salt? Onions non sautéed with mushrooms and garlic? Bread with no butter!

Grandmas had it right

Coffee with milk and sugar
Bread and butter
Eggs for breakfast

Steak and potatoes with lots of salt and butter

Chicken soups

Liver sauteed with onions

Mine lived till 96.

Her son's ate mostly seed oils fried foods, alcohol and fortified iron breads on their adulthood and died before 65. Only my dad survived after having colon cancer, same diet, I was on the same path.

Eliminate fried foods and iron fortification, supplement with magnesium, have some sunlight everyday if possible, be active and you have more than half of the puzzle resolved.

 

[Jennifer]

another little secret of milk, is to put just a dash into a tomato soup

That's how I grew up eating it. My mum and grandmother used Campbell's — I think it called for milk to thin it out, or maybe that's just what they used. Now I make it from scratch and use coconut milk instead. The only thing I miss is the grilled cheese sandwich to dunk in it.

 

[sweetpeat]

That's how I grew up eating it. My mum and grandmother used Campbell's — I think it called for milk to thin it out, or maybe that's just what they used. Now I make it from scratch and use coconut milk instead. The only thing I miss is the grilled cheese sandwich to dunk in it.

Yum! That's what I had for lunch yesterday - grilled cheese and tomato soup

As for dairy, I drink around a pint of milk a day, usually flavored with chocolate but sometimes plain and almost always with other foods. Also greek yogurt and cheese and ice cream (not all of those necessarily every day). It's not something I force on myself; it's a food group I enjoy and seem to do fine with it. Though I do need deodorant lol. I average around 1500mg of calcium a day and dairy contributes to about a third of my protein and overall calories. To cut it from my diet would require some serious reworking and I'm not sure the effort would be worth it in my case.

Jennifer (and other folks who have ditched dairy) what do you do for calcium? Or do you not worry about it?