Losing My Faith In Dairy (bad Source Of Calcium?)

[JohnBonham]

I love the idea of dairy being the main staple of my diet. It's convenient, inexpensive (mostly), and I adore the flavor. I have had a large amount of dairy every single day for quite some time. Because of this, I would think that I'm getting enough calcium that my body needs. Instead of this, I've been getting all kinds of Calcium Deficiency symptoms like insomnia, fatigue, feeling on edge, dry skin and nails, and the worst of all, full body MUSCLE SPASMS constantly throughout the day and that makes sleep a very difficult thing to do.

My magnesium RBC and potassium are perfect (In fact potassium makes spasms and everything else worse. Maybe raises aldosterone lowering calcium?), Thyroid panel perfect, Vitamin D a tiny but low but still good, C-Reactive protein great, Anemia panel perfect, I get plenty of salt and minerals due to my diet. The only thing I can think of to cause my symptoms is lack of calcium. But I should be getting tons of it!

So, in desperation, I made some eggshell powder calcium yesterday and voila, I slept much better after ages of not sleeping. I've spend enough money on supplements over the years to know how to identify a placebo effect. I lost water weight, my face is much more defined and I'm 6'1 170 pounds so I'm slender to begin with. I've always had a high metabolism and I'm a 23 year old guy, so I can't think of anything else causing my problems. I REALLY crave carbonated water, which I've read is a sign you need more calcium.

Why does calcium from dairy do nothing for me, yet eggshell worked in just a few hours? I'm not lactose intolerant at all. I'm German/Italian so I feel I should be built to eat dairy. I can drink a gallon of milk and eat a wheel of cheese the size of a Volkswagen and not get any digestive issues.

Can anyone weigh in here? I've read all over the place that dairy is not only a poor source of calcium, but it actually depletes calcium. But I definitely trusted Peat over all of that.

 

[Matt1951]

How much calcium were you taking before, how much are you taking now? What were your calcium/magnesium ratios, on milk, and now?

 

[Brian]

Do you drink conventional processed milk? I notice a big difference with raw milk. I'm not sure exactly what it is. Maybe homogenization, pasteurization, the emulsifiers of the added vitamins, or some other step in the processing changes the chemical structure of the calcium containing compounds in a way that makes it harder to break down and absorb.

Conventional milk often produces hard small stools, while raw milk produces something more ideal for me.

 

[JohnBonham]

How much calcium were you taking before, how much are you taking now? What were your calcium/magnesium ratios, on milk, and now?

I'd say around 2000 mg average for the dairy. Eggshell calcium 1000 yesterday split between two doses. More than that today.

I've always been passionate about magnesium supplementation. It's hard to gauge the dosage, though. 600 mg average maybe. I've used magnesium oil, too. By RBC levels were spot on. Thanks for the reply!

 

[JohnBonham]

Do you drink conventional processed milk? I notice a big difference with raw milk. I'm not sure exactly what it is. Maybe homogenization, pasteurization, the emulsifiers of the added vitamins, or some other step in the processing changes the chemical structure of the calcium containing compounds in a way that makes it harder to break down and absorb.

Conventional milk often produces hard small stools, while raw milk produces something more ideal for me.

I use Kalona Supernatural non-homogenized cream top milk. It's expensive, but Kalona is to milk what Led Zeppelin is to Rock and Roll. My point is that it's awesome. I don't do raw anything. I got salmonella many years ago from raw eggs and I'd rather take a shower with a hungry Grizzly Bear than deal with that again.

 

[Brian]

I use Kalona Supernatural non-homogenized cream top milk. It's expensive, but Kalona is to milk what Led Zeppelin is to Rock and Roll. My point is that it's awesome. I don't do raw anything. I got salmonella many years ago from raw eggs and I'd rather take a shower with a hungry Grizzly Bear than deal with that again.

Ok, well my other theory about milk is that it requires very large amounts of stomach acid to break down when drunk in high quantities at one time and that a lot of it can go undigested. I'm not entirely sure why, but I think even in a perfectly healthy person sometimes the stomach never receives a clear signal to release enough acid when a large amount of milk is consumed. High calcium is supposed to be sensed by specific parts of the lower stomach and trigger high amounts of acid release in reaction, but maybe there are various things that can interfere with this process.

 

[JohnBonham]

Ok, well my other theory about milk is that it requires very large amounts of stomach acid to break down and that a lot of it can go undigested. I'm not entirely sure why, but I think even in a perfectly healthy person sometimes the stomach never receives a clear signal to release enough acid when a large amount of milk is consumed. High calcium is supposed to be sensed by specific parts of the lower stomach and trigger high amounts of acid release in reaction, but maybe there are various things that can interfere with this process.

Interesting, I had never heard that before! So are you saying that dairy is better off in smaller amounts?

 

[Brian]

Interesting, I had never heard that before! So are you saying that dairy is better off in smaller amounts?

Yeah, there is a specific mechanism just for calcium. It stimulates the release of gastrin into the blood that in turn stimulates acid release in the stomach. Since it is a multi step process maybe there are various things that can go wrong. Maybe even things like vagus nerve tone or being stressed before or after consuming the milk can affect the acid release.

Calcium stimulation of gastrin and gastric acid secretion: effect of small doses of calcium carbonate.

These findings indicate that calcium increases serum gastrin by local stimulation of antral and duodenal mucosa.

 

[Tarmander]

I always have issues when I do large amounts of milk...or really any liquid at one time. If the egg shells are working for you, what's the problem?

 

[DaveFoster]

Why does calcium from dairy do nothing for me, yet eggshell worked in just a few hours? I'm not lactose intolerant at all. I'm German/Italian so I feel I should be built to eat dairy. I can drink a gallon of milk and eat a wheel of cheese the size of a Volkswagen and not get any digestive issues.

Can anyone weigh in here? I've read all over the place that dairy is not only a poor source of calcium, but it actually depletes calcium. But I definitely trusted Peat over all of that.

It absolutely does not deplete calcium; that's absolutely ridiculous. You just need more calcium. 1 - 2 grams more than milk provides you.

 

[supernature]

@JohnBonham

"I've read all over the place that dairy is not only a poor source of calcium, but it actually depletes calcium.

That what you've read could some to do with the theory of over acidification of the body, as the milk, cheese etc, they all are acidic and probably leave acidic ash in the body, that over time when build up can show up as a signs of "aging" as the body removes alkalising substances from the tissues and then calcium from the bones, i guess.
It would be good idea if you can measure Ca i guess (maybe even better all 4 of them), so that could be compared with the symptoms you have.

 

[tara]

or really any liquid at one time.

I was wondering about that too.

I love milk and get no obvious gut distress, but unfortunately it messes with me if I have too much. Powdered oyster shell doesn't have this effect. (Eggshell is probably better, I just haven't been able to make or acquire any suitable so far.)

 

[Matt1951]

I'd say around 2000 mg average for the dairy. Eggshell calcium 1000 yesterday split between two doses. More than that today.

I've always been passionate about magnesium supplementation. It's hard to gauge the dosage, though. 600 mg average maybe. I've used magnesium oil, too. By RBC levels were spot on. Thanks for the reply!

Your eggshell calcium/magnesium ratio is now closer to the 2:1 ratio recommended by many (although perhaps not by Ray Peat).
Modifying effect of calcium/magnesium intake ratio and mortality: a population-based cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think too much magnesium competes with calcium and diminishes calcium. Maybe that's the problem.

 

[zooma]

What does the rest of your diet look like?

Dairy is a good source of calcium, but it also has a very high amount of phosphorous. If you are also eating meat or other high phosphorous foods you may be tipping the balance away from calcium. RP has said that the ratio of calcium: phosphorous is more important than the absolute amount of calcium.

 

[BastiFuntasty]

Have you tried to consume smaller quantities of milk at a time? Let's say something like 350ml or in case of cheese just small pieces. Dairy is a source of so damn much nutrients, maybe it's too much in high quantities for our mineral transportation system or whatever we should call it.

 

[Kasper]

@JohnBonham 600 mg magnesium can be a lot. Especially if you use magnesium glycinate. And even more, if you cells are in balance and are not leaking any magnesium.

I have heard people getting calf cramps of a dosage of only 400 mg of magnesium from magnesium glycinate. I experienced that myself on 600 mg magnesium chloride yesterday. I normally don't get that, I think because of the taurine I take, I just don't need that much magnesium anymore.

And yes, you need a lot of calcium for those calf cramps to go away.

 

[BobbyDukes]

If this thread had been about wheat, the first response would have been 'drop the food; why are you eating that if it's doing that to you'.

 

[Tarmander]

I was wondering about that too.

I love milk and get no obvious gut distress, but unfortunately it messes with me if I have too much. Powdered oyster shell doesn't have this effect. (Eggshell is probably better, I just haven't been able to make or acquire any suitable so far.)

I am the same with milk. Like a glass of milk I am A-Ok but if I drink a quart all at once I am bloated for two hours or more sometimes. I don't know the reason, but I think it is either too much alkaline material hitting your gut all at once, or perhaps some type of dehydration/salt loss as having some salt usually reduces the bloating pretty quickly.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I love the idea of dairy being the main staple of my diet. It's convenient, inexpensive (mostly), and I adore the flavor. I have had a large amount of dairy every single day for quite some time. Because of this, I would think that I'm getting enough calcium that my body needs. Instead of this, I've been getting all kinds of Calcium Deficiency symptoms like insomnia, fatigue, feeling on edge, dry skin and nails, and the worst of all, full body MUSCLE SPASMS constantly throughout the day and that makes sleep a very difficult thing to do.

My magnesium RBC and potassium are perfect (In fact potassium makes spasms and everything else worse. Maybe raises aldosterone lowering calcium?), Thyroid panel perfect, Vitamin D a tiny but low but still good, C-Reactive protein great, Anemia panel perfect, I get plenty of salt and minerals due to my diet. The only thing I can think of to cause my symptoms is lack of calcium. But I should be getting tons of it!

So, in desperation, I made some eggshell powder calcium yesterday and voila, I slept much better after ages of not sleeping. I've spend enough money on supplements over the years to know how to identify a placebo effect. I lost water weight, my face is much more defined and I'm 6'1 170 pounds so I'm slender to begin with. I've always had a high metabolism and I'm a 23 year old guy, so I can't think of anything else causing my problems. I REALLY crave carbonated water, which I've read is a sign you need more calcium.

Why does calcium from dairy do nothing for me, yet eggshell worked in just a few hours? I'm not lactose intolerant at all. I'm German/Italian so I feel I should be built to eat dairy. I can drink a gallon of milk and eat a wheel of cheese the size of a Volkswagen and not get any digestive issues.

Can anyone weigh in here? I've read all over the place that dairy is not only a poor source of calcium, but it actually depletes calcium. But I definitely trusted Peat over all of that.

This seems obvious to me...........if milk makes you feel bad, but calcium supplements makes you feel good, it's the liquid. Too much liquid can definitely cause issues, and ray talks about that too. Too much water content can cause problems if your temp and pulse are not already high and your digestion isn't solid. I think milk is a perfect food when your metabolism is perfect, but this might not be the case for you. Does your temp and pulse increase, or lower after drinking milk? It could be the most perfect food in the world, but if you're not able to digest it, you're not getting any benefit from it.