Bringing To Attention The Dark Side Of Dairy

[Tristan Loscha]

Low Estrogen Content in Milk – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Lower fat milk also has lower estrogen. Even whole milk has an extremely low estrogen content. Apart from that estrogen from milk is not really an issue since milk also contains progesterone.

An Interview With Dr. Raymond Peat: A Renowned Nutritional Counselor Offers His Thoughts About Thyroid Disease / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs


Nevertheless, milk obviously isn't for everybody. Especially not when one jumps in from 0 to 100. And on top of that lots of people seem to underestimate the sodium requirements of a high liquid diet.

..please dont go Hi-Sodium to fix a unsustainable liquid-diet-fantasy.
Sodium is quite toxic and not your friend.

 

[CLASH]

Low Estrogen Content in Milk – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Lower fat milk also has lower estrogen. Even whole milk has an extremely low estrogen content. Apart from that estrogen from milk is not really an issue since milk also contains progesterone.

An Interview With Dr. Raymond Peat: A Renowned Nutritional Counselor Offers His Thoughts About Thyroid Disease / Thyroid Disease Information Source - Articles/FAQs


Nevertheless, milk obviously isn't for everybody. Especially not when one jumps in from 0 to 100. And on top of that lots of people seem to underestimate the sodium requirements of a high liquid diet.

See this quote I posted on another thread amigo, quantity of whole milk taken in matters...

I doubt the progesterone or thyroid make a difference in milk, matter of fact I know that they dont, atleast for me and the people I know who have issues with it. People can rationalize all that they want, dairy just doesnt work for a lot of people.

Eh I doubt the sodium requirement trope on this forum in regards to this context is that realistic. I think drinking gallons of fluids a day is a problem in and of itself, especially for sedentary people. I also think milk is just a problem, perod. I dont think the sodium matters that much in this regard.

In your earlier post, you discuss calcium lowering prolactin, yet here you give us quote of calcium lowering parathyroid hormone. I'm assuming this quote from ray was intended to be seperate from your statement on prolactin?

Calcium does indeed lower parathyroid hormone, that doesnt have anything to do with the opiate effect of Beta-casomorphin-7 found in cow dairy. Opiates lower dopamine and raise prolactin directly, especially in succeptible individuals. They also induce constipation, and increased mucous production, which many people experience when drinking milk. Also, this has nothing to do with lactose, so the reference quote to that is not relevant to the context I discussed. If someone was having a lactose intolerance issue, the symptoms would most likely be bloating, gas and diarrhea, not constipation. I'm not talking about a parathyroid hormone, nor am I talking about lactose intolerance when I discuss issues with dairy, I am talking about casomorphins, which are opiate analogs, and I'm talking about the hormone contents of milk.

As for the estrogen studies:
1) Every article you posted, except for a review from Iran is from the journal of dairy science. This means thier conclusions are suspect overall which would lead us to have to look at the data ourselves.

2)
The typical range for estrone in non-menopausal women is:
17 pg/ml - 200 pg/ml
The typical plasma range for estradiol in non-menopausal women is:
15 pg/ml to 350 pg/ml
Again this is in non-menopausal women.
ESTF - Clinical: Estrogens, Estrone (E1) and Estradiol (E2), Fractionated, Serum

Using one of your studies:

Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.

"Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

2.9 pg/ml - skim
4.2 pg/ml - 1%
5.7 pg/ml - 2%
7.9 pg/ml - whole
20.4 pg/ml - half and half
54.1 pg/ml - cream
118.9 pg/g - butter

"17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

0.4 pg/ml - skim
0.6 pg/ml - 1%
0.9 pg/ml - 2%
1.1 pg/ml - whole
1.9 pg/ml - half and half
6.0 pg/ml - cream
15.8 pg/g - butter

At a dose of 100g of butter in a day (about 85g of dairy fat, which is why I targeted butter specifically as a hormonal issue, not milk) you have 11,890 pg of estrone and 1580 pg of estradiol. According to wikipedia estrone has a half life of about 12 hours, with estradiol having a half life of about 20 hours. With this in mind, its possible that continued consumption of butter overtime could elevate estrogen levels, particularly in men, to levels that could possibly cause issues.

3) There are other hormones in dairy fat besides estrogen, that include 5AR reduced steroids and progestigens that we dont know what thier possible effects are.

4) If you combine the opiate/ prolactin raising/ dopamine lowering effect of dairy with the estrogen content of its fats, in a susceptible person this could possibly cause issues.

So, as I said above, dropping dairy for a while may be a worthwhile experiment. I have seen dropping dairy have benefits for quite a few people. You can post Ray's theoretical quotes as much as you want, but in many cases including my own, dairy in reality was worse than a supposed theoretical calcium deficiency and phosphate excess from meat.

 

[boris]

Thanks for your concern Tristan!

I trust this guy though Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity and I feel better than ever that way. But of course I'll always look for signs my body is giving me and adjust accordingly.

@CLASH you are absolutely right, dairy isn't for everybody. That's what I said too.

 

[sladerunner69]

I have discussed the issues with milk and dairy on this forum almost ad nauseum.

The main issues are the opiate effect from the beta casomorphin peptide and the hormone content.

The beta casomorphin can give you every symptom you listed as it is an opiate. It can cause brain fog, severely slowed digestive transit, hairloss, loss of libido, loss of motivation, in conjunction with the hormones dairy is known to cause acne, it can cause bloating, water weight gain. These are all known side effects of opiates, elevated prolactin and estrogen. Dairy fat is high in estrone, and estradiol. Its also has 5ar reduced androgen metabolites that are known to induce acne, previous member Travis has covered this acne aspect.

It doesnt matter if organic, raw, or whatver other iteration or not, the only difference you may see is by switching to A2 varieties of milk that lack the beta casomorphin, such as goat milk. Even so there is still an opiate effect, it just isnt as potent. I experimented with all types of milk for a year. The worst health I ever had was on a high cows milk diet or a high starch diet.

I am curious where you are sourcing this information about beta casomorphin? I am assuming that is some derivative of the casien protien?

 

[CLASH]

I am curious where you are sourcing this information about beta casomorphin? I am assuming that is some derivative of the casien protien?

Directly from Pubmed. Travis has posted about it on the forum. I have posts about it on the forum. @olive has posts about it on the forum.

Its a peptide formed during the hydrolysis of casein. Wheat, soy, and some leafy greens also have what are called exorphins i.e. exogenous endorphins, aka opiate anologs.

A naturally occurring opioid peptide from cow's milk, beta-casomorphine-7, is a direct histamine releaser in man. - PubMed - NCBI

Pseudoallergic skin reactions to opiate sequences of bovine casein in healthy children. - PubMed - NCBI

Milk protein-derived opioid receptor ligands. - PubMed - NCBI

Milk Bioactive Peptides and β-Casomorphins Induce Mucus Release in Rat Jejunum

Casomorphin - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Opioids in the milk. - PubMed - NCBI

Bread and Other Edible Agents of Mental Disease

 

[Tristan Loscha]

See this quote I posted on another thread amigo, quantity of whole milk taken in matters...

I doubt the progesterone or thyroid make a difference in milk, matter of fact I know that they dont, atleast for me and the people I know who have issues with it. People can rationalize all that they want, dairy just doesnt work for a lot of people.

Eh I doubt the sodium requirement trope on this forum in regards to this context is that realistic. I think drinking gallons of fluids a day is a problem in and of itself, especially for sedentary people. I also think milk is just a problem, perod. I dont think the sodium matters that much in this regard.
At a dose of 100g of butter in a day (about 85g of dairy fat, which is why I targeted butter specifically as a hormonal issue, not milk) you have 11,890 pg of estrone and 1580 pg of estradiol. According to wikipedia estrone has a half life of about 12 hours, with estradiol having a half life of about 20 hours. With this in mind, its possible that continued consumption of butter overtime could elevate estrogen levels, particularly in men, to levels that could possibly cause issues.

3) There are other hormones in dairy fat besides estrogen, that include 5AR reduced steroids and progestigens that we dont know what thier possible effects are.

4) If you combine the opiate/ prolactin raising/ dopamine lowering effect of dairy with the estrogen content of its fats, in a susceptible person this could possibly cause issues.

So, as I said above, dropping dairy for a while may be a worthwhile experiment. I have seen dropping dairy have benefits for quite a few people. You can post Ray's theoretical quotes as much as you want, but in many cases including my own, dairy in reality was worse than a supposed theoretical calcium deficiency and phosphate excess from meat.

+1

 

[CLASH]

Thanks for your concern Tristan!

I trust this guy though Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity and I feel better than ever that way. But of course I'll always look for signs my body is giving me and adjust accordingly.

@CLASH you are absolutely right, dairy isn't for everybody. That's what I said too.

I think salting to taste works. I have seen too many people go overboard on this forum with salt and dairy, thats why I say what I say. I have seen countless person come here and do the ray peat "diet" and get sick trying to make dairy work, myself included. Thats why I have such a staunch stance with the dairy issue. Its easy to rationalize and try and make something work based on Ray's theory, its harder to just listen to yourself. I'm not aiming this at you @boris, I'm aiming this at others who are reading externally. I hate to see people come here try Ray's ideas, get fat or sick and discount Ray. Ray has alot of value. The area is just nuanced and has a high learning curve unfortunately.

 

[boris]

I hear you

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I think salting to taste works. I have seen too many people go overboard on this forum with salt and dairy, thats why I say what I say. I have seen countless person come here and do the ray peat "diet" and get sick trying to make dairy work, myself included. Thats why I have such a staunch stance with the dairy issue. Its easy to rationalize and try and make something work based on Ray's theory, its harder to just listen to yourself. I'm not aiming this at you @boris, I'm aiming this at others who are reading externally. I hate to see people come here try Ray's ideas, get fat or sick and discount Ray. Ray has alot of value. The area is just nuanced and has a high learning curve unfortunately.

What do you think is physiologic Salt intake,and what happens to the excess?

 

[Jennifer]

Hey Jennifer, have you ever tried the raw milk of other animals as well, such as goats, sheep, camel? Sorry if you mentioned this in another thread already.

No worries! Yep, I've tried raw goat, sheep and buffalo dairy, as well as raw cow dairy from A2 certified heritage breeds from 3 local 100% grass-based biodynamic farms. I even debated giving camel milk a shot when the rest had failed, but it's super expensive since it's uncommon where I live and I figured I had tried long enough — 7 years.

The worst health I ever had was on a high cows milk diet or a high starch diet.

Me too!

A lot of the healthy 3 times a day stools are coming from overgrowth of bacteria.

It wouldn't surprise me. I suspect smell is a good indicator. Not to be gross but for me, 3 BMs a day on a dairy based diet = odorous stools, while 3 BMs a day on a fruitarian diet or a fruit and meat diet = odorless stools. Same with body odor, particularly the underarms. The only time I had no underarm odor while consuming dairy (the same diet I eat now but with the inclusion of dairy) was when I was taking minocycline. On a fruitarian diet and a fruit and meat diet I don't even need deodorant (I've asked others to smell me and they can confirm lol).

 

[Tristan Loscha]

No worries! Yep, I've tried raw goat, sheep and buffalo dairy, as well as raw cow dairy from A2 certified heritage breeds from 3 local 100% grass-based biodynamic farms. I even debated giving camel milk a shot when the rest had failed, but it's super expensive since it's uncommon where I live and I figured I had tried long enough — 7 years.

Me too!

It wouldn't surprise me. I suspect smell is a good indicator. Not to be gross but for me, 3 BMs a day on a dairy based diet = odorous stools, while 3 BMs a day on a fruitarian diet or a fruit and meat diet = odorless stools. Same with body odor, particularly underarms. The only time I had no underarm odor while consuming dairy (the same diet I eat now but with the inclusion of dairy) was when I was taking minocycline. On a fruitarian diet and a fruit and meat diet I don't even need deodorant (I've asked others to smell me and they can confirm lol).

Impressive 7 year struggle!



happy to see you are doing well now!
Meat and ripe fruit,butter and cococut fat is a good deal.

 

[Herbie]

Alright, but you specifically said he drinks skim milk. I also asked where he said it and you said in the last interview and there wasn't a single mention about skim milk.

I added the skim in at the end. I listened to the interview when it came out and wrote that off memory from almost a month ago and mixed in with the rest if my memories of Peat quotes.

1 or 2% is not important and labeled differently in every country the point is that he doesn’t drink full cream because it ends up being too much fat and put on weight, thats what he said. Your derailing the thread because I wrote it because the OP said ray drinks organic milk or clean, local but doesnt. I don’t have time for this and regret ever typing anything

 

[Jennifer]

Impressive 7 year struggle!



happy to see you are doing well now!
Meat and ripe fruit,butter and cococut fat is a good deal.

Thanks, Tristan! :)

LOL It was mainly fear induced. My former doctor promoted and authored books on traditional diets/WAPF based thinking, and since she had the Cornell diploma and I had half a fractured back, I believed her when she said I needed dairy.

 

[CLASH]

What do you think is physiologic Salt intake,and what happens to the excess?

To be honest man I dont know. I have seen evidence for sodiums effect at high concentrations on the cell in regards to adjusting the structure of water and interacting with potassium creating issues physiologically. I also know there are studies showing moderate sodium intake to be helpful with too high being negative and too low being negative. I also know many people and animals get salt cravings.

Personally I salt to taste, but in all honesty I dont ever have salt cravings or use alot of salt. I eat meat, seafood, fruit, saturated fat sources and carrots, and I dont really get cravings, just the sensation of hunger. I only add a little salt to my meat, thats it (the seafood is already salty enough in most cases for me). My potassium intake is very high in comparison to sodium from my fruit intake.

No worries! Yep, I've tried raw goat, sheep and buffalo dairy, as well as raw cow dairy from A2 certified heritage breeds from 3 local 100% grass-based biodynamic farms. I even debated giving camel milk a shot when the rest had failed, but it's super expensive since it's uncommon where I live and I figured I had tried long enough — 7 years.

Me too!

It wouldn't surprise me. I suspect smell is a good indicator. Not to be gross but for me, 3 BMs a day on a dairy based diet = odorous stools, while 3 BMs a day on a fruitarian diet or a fruit and meat diet = odorless stools. Same with body odor, particularly the underarms. The only time I had no underarm odor while consuming dairy (the same diet I eat now but with the inclusion of dairy) was when I was taking minocycline. On a fruitarian diet and a fruit and meat diet I don't even need deodorant (I've asked others to smell me and they can confirm lol).

I have the same experience on pretty much the same basis of diet. A few other people I know have similar experiences as well.

 

[ExCarniv]

Meat and ripe fruit,butter and cococut fat is a good deal.

You need to supplement Calcium with that diet.

Too much Phosphorus to Calcium ratio as harmful, is one of the things Peat got right.

 

[GorillaHead]

Lactose free organic milk causes me to redevelop IBD symptoms. My gut starts producing a tremendous amount of mucus. Interestingly enough I have no issues consuming cheese

 

[GorillaHead]

I have discussed the issues with milk and dairy on this forum almost ad nauseum.

The main issues are the opiate effect from the beta casomorphin peptide and the hormone content.

The beta casomorphin can give you every symptom you listed as it is an opiate. It can cause brain fog, severely slowed digestive transit, hairloss, loss of libido, loss of motivation, in conjunction with the hormones dairy is known to cause acne, it can cause bloating, water weight gain. These are all known side effects of opiates, elevated prolactin and estrogen. Dairy fat is high in estrone, and estradiol. Its also has 5ar reduced androgen metabolites that are known to induce acne, previous member Travis has covered this acne aspect.

It doesnt matter if organic, raw, or whatver other iteration or not, the only difference you may see is by switching to A2 varieties of milk that lack the beta casomorphin, such as goat milk. Even so there is still an opiate effect, it just isnt as potent. I experimented with all types of milk for a year. The worst health I ever had was on a high cows milk diet or a high starch diet.

I can vouch for this. I spent a huge part of my life drinking Milk everyday and I had the worst acne possible.





does anyone know if whey protein isolate will cause the same negative effects milk causes?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

You need to supplement Calcium with that diet.

Too much Phosphorus to Calcium ratio as harmful, is one of the things Peat got right.

True.
Also Magnesium,and bicarbonate,preferably from water naturally containing it.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I can vouch for this. I spent a huge part of my life drinking Milk everyday and I had the worst acne possible.





does anyone know if whey protein isolate will cause the same negative effects milk causes?

I got acne-effect also from whey.It is the unchanged Amino-Acid Pattern,which has
bio-active hormone effect.Bacterially digested cheese has an modified Protein-Pattern,and reduced
hormonal effects,but not sure.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

No worries! Yep, I've tried raw goat, sheep and buffalo dairy, as well as raw cow dairy from A2 certified heritage breeds from 3 local 100% grass-based biodynamic farms. I even debated giving camel milk a shot when the rest had failed, but it's super expensive since it's uncommon where I live and I figured I had tried long enough — 7 years.

I see. Thanks for answering!