Bringing To Attention The Dark Side Of Dairy

[Xemnoraq]

Hey guys, before i start this off i just want to say i 100% support Peat and what he stands for in terms of dairy and calcium, i notice what he says works, when i eat a lot of calcium i get a huge metabolic boost,

but one thing i really wanted to bring to light in this forum is the real downsides or nasty side of dairy that not too many folks seem to be discussing,

what prompted me to do this is i'm a huge dairy consumer, 2L of skim milk or tons of fat free yogurt and lots of cheese,
the issue is i have extremely severe bowel issues, something what i speculate to be crohn's, i get hard swelling in my gut liver and intestines area, my skin goes almost pale jaundice, i get horrible brain fog and really bad B.O. essentially all of the horrible endotoxin symptoms,

and i notice this EVERYTIME i go really hard on dairy and load up on lots of it,
so i get extremely sick like someone with crohn's would horrible fatigue bad skin hair loss etc, then every time i cut out dairy things seem to improve real fast,

so i did a little bit of digging, and while there's not much out there (likely due to the dairy industry covering their tracks) i came across a few things i wanted to share to open a discussion on here and get some feedback,

so Haidut made a post on here saying crohn's and collitis have been tied to fungi and bacteria implicating it's possible it could be completely bacterial based (combined with the hosts response to inflammation like fibrosis etc)

one of the microbes that the finger was pointed at was the mycobacterium paratuberculosis.

Now if you do any research on this M.A.P. bacteria, you will notice it's ALWAYS implicated to be sourced largely from dairy products as the main source of contamination,

So bottom line M.A.P. - the mycobacterium has been said to be thee bacterial cause of crohn's because it was noted that infection with this bacteria in cows caused the cow version of crohn's essentially which they call John's disease.

So if that bacteria essentially causes crohn's in cows, and its contaminated largely in dairy products (and not eliminated by pasteurization) who's to say it isn't doing the same or at least driving an extensive inflammatory process with endotoxin,

has anyone ever noticed the amount of people on the Peat forum that report so many problems with dairy? they go back and forth like myself between their own belief and Peat's advice with dairy.

Now with all this being said i would like to say i 100% agree with Peat on dairy BUT, i think we should also think for ourselves like he says and let our own judgement pass on something uninfluenced by the words of others.

One thing we need to remember is Peat likely has access to the highest quality clean dairy products where as most of us are drinking the commercialized garbage thats been reported to have fecal contamination, aflatoxin, xenoestrogens, etc I could go on.

So with that being said should we really consume EXCESSIVE amounts of dairy if it is commercialized and possibly causing major issues and largely contributing to the inflammatory process.

Everywhere you look on the internet you see an association between dairy causing dysbiosis and leaky gut, and while a lot of stuff is just vegan propoganda, on the flip side, it's actually EXTREMELY difficult to find conclusive studies on dairy because the dairy industry is so powerful in terms of influencing the outcomes and words of these studies that cannot be denied.

Besides the M.A.P. species i mentioned there's been so many other pathogenic bacteria reported to be in milk and dairy products, and personally when i consume large amounts of commercialized dairy i feel like a big bag of bacterial overgrowth, just bad body odour poor skin, swollen gut etc.

I'm going to link a few studies / threads / articles that kind of sparked my interest and motivation to create this thread, let me know what you guys think,

i'd love to hear feedback and other peoples experiences with dairy,

basically i would really just like to discuss the extensive downsides to commercialized dairy vs organic and it's possible negative implications on human health specifically gut health and endotoxin,

considering us Peat followers on the forum are consuming more dairy than anyone else, i really think we should bring our heads together and discuss this because i feel like it needs to be addressed,

the fecal contamination, possible fungal spores, aflatoxin, bacteria plastics, xenoestrogens, pesticides etc. let's dig it all up!

Peat has actually mentioned this himself too is "organic" or local dairy is always best, i just feel he may not put enough of an emphasis on it, maybe these things about pathogenic bacteria in commercial dairy hasn't been brought to his attention much.

it's very difficult to find studies that will actually come out and state these implications of these negatives on human health, so i will post some of these links below, let me know what you guys think, let's take a much closer look at all the downsides to commercial dairy that doesn't get addressed much on here and discuss how it may or may not be affecting all of our health due to our mass consumption,

here's a conclusive quote from one of the studies,

"Unacceptable levels of Enterobacter spp. and Escherichia coli were found in most of the samples. Effective measures to ensure safe milk for human consumption such as the phosphatase test and methylene blue reduction test should be routinely performed on each batch of milk processed by dairy plants."

-Also note, some of these studies examine milk from different countries so it may not be all universal, however it still gives us a broad insight,

and last thing i want to mention, is Peat always says animals are essentially like detoxification systems, and that they inactivate most toxins to prevent them from reaching things like the milk, HOWEVER, we know that organisms that are not healthy do not have good detoxification capabilities, he said this with humans, any stress kills the enzymes needed to detoxify like the glucoronic acid pathway i think he mentioned,

So just imagine how unhealthy these animals are under immense amounts of psychological and physical stress, eating only grains and PUFA contaminated with aflatoxin, and living in their own feces essentially, i doubt these animals are very good at detoxifying really anything given their state and living situations,

it really seems like local or organic clean milk really may be the only option for improving health with dairy... at least from the way it's looking.

Fungi / Bacteria, Not Autoimmunity, Cause IBD (Chron's, UC) And IBS

Microbial Contamination in Milk Quality and Health Risk of the Consumers of Raw Milk and Dairy Products | IntechOpen

https://www.researchgate.net/public...cts_occurrence_and_recent_challenges_A_review

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308294887_Bacterial_Contamination_of_Dairy_Products

The microbial content of unexpired pasteurized milk from selected supermarkets in a developing country

https://www.researchgate.net/public...UCTS_A_CASE_STUDY_BACAU_DISTRICT_AREA_ROMANIA

 

[Herbie]

Ray Peat said on the last interview with Patrick that he just drinks the pasteurized and homogenized with added A and D regular american skim milk.

 

[Xemnoraq]

Ray Peat said on the last interview with Patrick that he just drinks the pasteurized and homogenized with added A and D regular american skim milk.

Shoot eh! I always would have thought he would have had a locally sourced dairy, even with this being said is this still the best option regardless if peat consumes it, some of this stuff is concerning, i mean if you dont react negatively to dairy i guess i wouldnt see an issue

 

[burtlancast]

Maybe why there has been a relation between milk consumption and MS incidence ?....

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Maybe why there has been a relation between milk consumption and MS incidence ?....

Milk consumption is related to a couple of diseases,like PD,but im too lazy to fetch sources.
Yes,and even pasteurized milk can be contaminated,because the differently heated milks go through the same piping,
so there is gunk-buildup after heating from the lesser heated Milk- residual microorganisms who slipped through.
But also IGF1(and 2?) is fully available even after heat-treatment,is available per os,and binds exactly like humane IGFs.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

..

"It seems, for adults of all species, the PRL in consumed milk is more likely hydrolysed to its constituent amino acids before absorption (6). Thus, it is thought at least for adults, existing of high or low levels of PRL in consumed milk do not have biological impact. However, other studies demonstrated that milk PRL is absorbed and exert biologically effects including differentiation and maturation of neonatal neuroendocrine, regulation of the reproductive and immune systems in the neonates (20).

Source,with further milk-exposition:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/pdf/IJPH-44-742.pdf

 

[rob]

Yep, as someone with IBD, the MAP thing is well discussed. We do know that IBD is characterised by genetic mutations that can lead to faulty autophagy, so makes sense that a particularly stubborn intracellular pathogen could set up shop in certain individuals and propagate inflammation.

Unfortunately though, progress on things like MAP is extremely slow. Case in point is Prof. Hermon-Taylor here in the UK trying to get through his MAP test and vaccine (Crohn's MAP Vaccine) – years in the pipeline now. To memory, RedHill have come up with an antibiotic formulation that's meant to treat MAP, so might see something like that made available sooner.

However, still don't think it's the full picture on the IBD front. For one, I was dairy free prior to my Crohn's diagnosis and there was clearer signs of significant nervous system dysfunction for a long time before I got ill.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

..One of the papers seems to imply that pasteurization doesnt work very well for reduction of their named species.
I also felt always weird from milk-drinking,and got reliably nodular acne-bouts from it.

 

[ExCarniv]

I switched from milk to hard aged cheese.

70-80g is enough for calcium and good protein, and well tolerated for almost everyone.

 

[opson123]

Ray Peat said on the last interview with Patrick that he just drinks the pasteurized and homogenized with added A and D regular american skim milk.

Can you link the interview? I remember someone here saying he doesn't like the taste of skim milk so he mainly drinks 1% milk.

 

[Herbie]

Can you link the interview? I remember someone here saying he doesn't like the taste of skim milk so he mainly drinks 1% milk.

Last interview with Patrick from one radio network

 

[boris]

Did he say added A and D? I think he just mentionend that it is often added (and problematic because of the gums they use to disperse them?). As far as I remember he said he uses homogenized, just because you don't have to shake it up.

 

[Herbie]

Did he say added A and D? I think he just mentionend that it is often added (and problematic because of the gums they use to disperse them?). As far as I remember he said he uses homogenized, just because you don't have to shake it up.

OneradioNetwork- October 15th 2019 - Ray Peat Interview[/QUOTE]

 

[InChristAlone]

I do remember being pretty healthy drinking organic raw milk versus when my health crashed and I was drinking just whatever store bought. I don't drink milk anymore, prefer hard cheese or ice cream. I can relate to your description of how milk makes you feel.

 

[Pufa]

I switched from milk to hard aged cheese.

70-80g is enough for calcium and good protein, and well tolerated for almost everyone.

Very high fat though

 

[Lone Bunman]

Can always google to see what he actually said.

 

[Cloudhands]

Dairy has a relatively inflammatory amino acid profile, especially with the extra b vitamins required once someone is 'pufa depleted'. Without B6 and iron, tryptophan will become serotonin. Another thought is that the highly alkaline nature of milk tends to titrate the stomach acids, which can be an issue in individuals who are already compromised. Casein inhibits zinc absorbtion as well which is huge in any illness. Lactoferrin also pulls iron into the liver at a fast rate which can overburden the liver. The high amount of leucine in milk can also use up alot of zinc as it synthesizes skeletal cholesterol, which can also create a niacin deficiency, leaving the heavy drinker with a whole load of issues. The root cause of your issues isnt the milk tho. The root cause is (imo) that at some point a lot of us on the forum are the type of people willing to drink an entire jug of milk everyday because someone said that it would make us feel super. I think that ray is brilliant and he leads by example, not because of his dietary choices, but because of his radical criticism and contrarianism. He has stated that he doesnt think people should follow him. Dont bet all your chips on one woman/man unless its yourself.

 

[Xemnoraq]

Dairy has a relatively inflammatory amino acid profile, especially with the extra b vitamins required once someone is 'pufa depleted'. Without B6 and iron, tryptophan will become serotonin. Another thought is that the highly alkaline nature of milk tends to titrate the stomach acids, which can be an issue in individuals who are already compromised. Casein inhibits zinc absorbtion as well which is huge in any illness. Lactoferrin also pulls iron into the liver at a fast rate which can overburden the liver. The high amount of leucine in milk can also use up alot of zinc as it synthesizes skeletal cholesterol, which can also create a niacin deficiency, leaving the heavy drinker with a whole load of issues. The root cause of your issues isnt the milk tho. The root cause is (imo) that at some point a lot of us on the forum are the type of people willing to drink an entire jug of milk everyday because someone said that it would make us feel super. I think that ray is brilliant and he leads by example, not because of his dietary choices, but because of his radical criticism and contrarianism. He has stated that he doesnt think people should follow him. Dont bet all your chips on one woman/man unless its yourself.

I agree with you on the excess tryptophan, methionine etc, if theres not enough b vitamins to work with this it could likely raise homocysteine and serotonin, and especially if someone is PUFA depleted higher metabolic rate means higher b vitamin needs, they get used up a lot for glucose oxidation so someone with a high metabolism mainly oxidizing glucose has higher needs for these specific vitamins,

How do you know casein inhibits zinc absorbtion? Milk also is decently high in zinc no?

And about the lactoferrin, i was told lactoferrin actually acts like an iron chelator and lowers iron levels over time, are you suggesting it chelates iron by shoveling it to the liver first (where oxidative damage may occur? Are do you mean it just mobilizes it to the liver without any excretion, im curious because i have heard from many sources including Peat Lactoferrin helps lower iron overload,

And its tough because milk has so many benefits, and i think a lot of the downsides such as pathogens and everything else is mostly a problem, for people who are very hypothyroid but it should still be addressed non the less, especially if the contents or negatives of commercial dairy may be a barrier to achieving high thyroid function in some cases, in regards to most of the negatives you mentioned i think those could be fixed with balanced dieting, maybe adding gelatin to counter the inflammatory amino acids, eating enough b vitamins etc maybe just not overloading on dairy like we all do! Aha

 

[rob]

I agree with you on the excess tryptophan, methionine etc, if theres not enough b vitamins to work with this it could likely raise homocysteine and serotonin, and especially if someone is PUFA depleted higher metabolic rate means higher b vitamin needs, they get used up a lot for glucose oxidation so someone with a high metabolism mainly oxidizing glucose has higher needs for these specific vitamins,

How do you know casein inhibits zinc absorbtion? Milk also is decently high in zinc no?

And about the lactoferrin, i was told lactoferrin actually acts like an iron chelator and lowers iron levels over time, are you suggesting it chelates iron by shoveling it to the liver first (where oxidative damage may occur? Are do you mean it just mobilizes it to the liver without any excretion, im curious because i have heard from many sources including Peat Lactoferrin helps lower iron overload,

And its tough because milk has so many benefits, and i think a lot of the downsides such as pathogens and everything else is mostly a problem, for people who are very hypothyroid but it should still be addressed non the less, especially if the contents or negatives of commercial dairy may be a barrier to achieving high thyroid function in some cases, in regards to most of the negatives you mentioned i think those could be fixed with balanced dieting, maybe adding gelatin to counter the inflammatory amino acids, eating enough b vitamins etc maybe just not overloading on dairy like we all do! Aha

I agree on the benefits of lactoferrin, very good at depleting the free iron pool and, thus, helping limit the growth and proliferation of pathogens. Also, to memory, Lf can directly disrupt the cell membranes of pathogens and it’s immunoregulatory. Of course, can be great for anaemia too.

The gamma-glutamylcysteine (gGC) content of raw milk and, specifically, its whey portion should be also emphasised. gGC is only found in good amounts in raw whey and eggs and, due to its disulfide bond, potently upregulates intracellular glutathione levels. All very anti-inflammatory considering that a lot of chronic diseases are associated with low levels of reduced glutathione leading to a severely pro-oxidant state.

Beyond that, grass fed should provide a good source of CLA, a great PPAR gamma agonist.

But, of course, some people react negatively to such things as its growth factors, insulin-stimulating proteins and the potential pathogens it can harbour.

Maybe clabbering good raw milk and drinking the raw whey that separates out would be a way to better balance pros and cons. Don’t know...

 

[opson123]

Last interview with Patrick from one radio network

At which point does he say he drinks skim milk? I only heard him say he drinks regular homogenized milk with added vitamins.