Dairy = Essential Or Deadly?

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It can sneak up on you...I was shocked when I realized I was getting double to quadruple the recommended amount. I never paid much attention to the green categories on cronometer before -I just assumed it was all good. My blood level checked at the high end of normal after virtually eating no A for over 7.5 months.

I took supplemental A, because I was convinced at the time it was the right thing to do, each time I took it I had immediate drops in libido more so than I have had from any other supplement. I decided to lower my dose to just a couple times a week instead of daily, the effect was still there. Eventually I dropped it all together and started to see I felt better without it. My impression after experimenting with all of the fat soluble vitamins is that they are better for me when consumed infrequently, like just twice a week or so and only when it is clear my body might need extra. E.g. some extra d when I don’t get sun in the winter, extra k if I am not eating a very balanced diet. Vitamin E is the only one I always feel okay on when I take daily. As for A, I think it is so easy to get through diet that there is no point in supplementing it.

Topical application of the fat solubles with a little dmso has always felt good and I like to do that a few times a month in spots I think could use more help. I don’t take them exclusively this way because it is not as convenient and I think oral delivery has unique benefits too.
 
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Cirion

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I think one of the things is that in general, a healthy metabolism has more mechanisms/ability to regulate both beneficial and detrimental substances.. Because of this, greater care must be made to get things "right" when one is unhealthy and this is why healthy people can seemingly get away with more negative lifestyle/nutritional choices.

I am gonna try one more thing before I eliminate milk entirely (Probably decreasing quantity at the very least tho). I put vitamin C, bcaa's, creatine in with my milk. Also taking L-tyrosine with it, and gelatin. according to Depleting Serotonin With BCAA this should work. If it doesn't, then yeah, milk is gonna go for good.
 

Waremu

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I believe FBP and folate receptors aren't the same thing. FBP are whey soluble proteins, while folate receptor auto antibodies are formed from exposure to bovine folate receptors reaching their milk.

I don't have the answer for which fraction of milk might or might not contain folate receptors, or if protein denaturing works. Only Travis has really researched it here and can answer that.

Correct. That is why I mentioned goat milk. UHT pasteurized cows milk seems to have almost no to lower amounts of FBP, but if you’re also concerned about the auto-antibodies due to the biovine folate receptors, then it appears Goat milk is better as it lacks the FRα immunocrossreactivity. But I think even with biovine milk, it may be more of a problem with homogenized milk. Travis did say this as well. Most of the research I have seen that has been done on it appears to be have been done with homogenized milk and I am still somewhat skeptical as to whether it’s as much of a problem when someone drinks non-homogenized/raw A-2 milk and has good enough digestion to mostly or completely hydrolize proteins. At least I remember Travis saying to me that the problem isn’t as bad with non-homegnozed milk. I believe he mentioned that auto-antibody activity in women shot up dramatically after the introduction of homeginized milk in Ireland, etc.

But I don’t see why goat milk should be a problem as it appears to lack those issues. Travis has said this much. He recommends goat milk highly. I personally feel more research needs to come out on non-homogenized milk. Skim milk while it technically is homogenized (at least that’s what milk companies claim on the label), it virtually has none of the homogenized fat left after skimming so that problem is at least lessoned I think with regards to skim milk. I personally will continue to drink mine and avoid homogenized fat milk as more scienctific work is done on this matter. I could drink some goat milk but I am very low PUFA so kind or hard to do that if I consume all my milk as goat milk. So I will stick to skim milk as that appears to be safer than homogenized fat milk. And I will wait as science develops more on this issue and will just supplement with a good (6S)-tetrahydrofolate supplement to counter this possible issue and be on the safe side just in case, as per Travis recommendation. I digest skim milk very well and I will go by how I feel and I so far have no symptoms of folate deficiency. (And it should be evident in me at some point if I am making enough auto-antibodies because I drink copeus amounts of organic skim milk). I suspect if whether additional folate from additional food sources like orange juice act in a similar way as the supplement as well, to help counter or displace, but am looking more into that.
 
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Waremu

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Well, if you try and reduce PUFA intake to zero, you are either eating a zero fat diet, or eating only fat from a purely refined source (likely fully hydrogenated). You can run into nutrient deficiencies and other issues with either of these approaches, and it's this very thing that Peat talks about as to why the initial Burr experiments were flawed. In eating normal food, some amount of PUFA and MUFA are unavoidable.

You can actually eat a “PUFA depletion” diet and not have nutritional deficiencies, but it just takes a large level of micro-management of diet and using refined speciality foods that many perhaps are not naturally prepared to do. The Burr experiments were done before the discovery or well recognition of certain vitamins so it was easier to do such an experiment and have a vitamin deficiency.

But I am on a very strict similar type of low PUFA diet, but not as low in total fat, but still technically low-moderate in fat, and I meet all of my nutritional requirements. Skim milk, OJ, coffee, and a small amount of liver and hydrogenated coconut oil (virtually free of PUFA), gelatin, and pineapple juice or maple syrup pretty much lands me on almost all if not all of my nutritional needs despite eating around 0.5/0.6 grams of PUFA per day. Milk and Oj alone covers all of your B-vitamins, choline, zinc, calcium/magnesium, potassium, Vitaminc C, copper, vitamin A/D, folate, and protein needs.

Without micromanagment and refined foods it’s impossible to do though.
 
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Alpha

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Correct. That is why I mentioned goat milk. UHT pasteurized cows milk seems to have almost no to lower amounts of FBP, but if you’re also concerned about the auto-antibodies due to the biovine folate receptors, then it appears Goat milk is better as it lacks the FRα immunocrossreactivity. But I think even with biovine milk, it may be more of a problem with homogenized milk. Travis did say this as well. Most of the research I have seen that has been done on it appears to be have been done with homogenized milk and I am still somewhat skeptical as to whether it’s as much of a problem when someone drinks non-homogenized/raw A-2 milk and has good enough digestion to mostly or completely hydrolize proteins. At least I remember Travis saying to me that the problem isn’t as bad with non-homegnozed milk. I believe he mentioned that auto-antibody activity in women shot up dramatically after the introduction of homeginized milk in Ireland, etc.

But I don’t see why goat milk should be a problem as it appears to lack those issues. Travis has said this much. He recommends goat milk highly. I personally feel more research needs to come out on non-homogenized milk. Skim milk while it technically is homogenized (at least that’s what milk companies claim on the label), it virtually has none of the homogenized fat left after skimming so that problem is at least lessoned I think with regards to skim milk. I personally will continue to drink mine and avoid homogenized fat milk as more scienctific work is done on this matter. I could drink some goat milk but I am very low PUFA so kind or hard to do that if I consume all my milk as goat milk. So I will stick to skim milk as that appears to be safer than homogenized fat milk. And I will wait as science develops more on this issue and will just supplement with a good (6S)-tetrahydrofolate supplement to counter this possible issue and be on the safe side just in case, as per Travis recommendation. I digest skim milk very well and I will go by how I feel and I so far have no symptoms of folate deficiency. (And it should be evident in me at some point if I am making enough auto-antibodies because I drink copeus amounts of organic skim milk). I suspect if whether additional folate from additional food sources like orange juice act in a similar way as the supplement as well, to help counter or displace, but am looking more into that.
You make good points. But we also need to confirm that it is the lipid vesicles carrying the proteins that's causing the auto immune response, and not simply it's presence in the gut, although highly unlikely. A permeable gut can also absorb long chain amino acids, not to mention that skim milk is not entirely fat free, if homogenation really is to blame.

I agree that goat milk is not cross reactive with human folate receptors, it was around 64% if I remember correctly. The problem is I don't like any other milk. The second problem is dairy is in most of the food products these days. If you have a latte, sandwich, muffin, chocolate, or any dish with white/brown sauce, there's dairy there. So it's difficult to avoid completely.

Studies on autism showed improvement by 6 months abstinence from dairy, or using very large doses of folate, in excess of 5mg per day, probably closer to 50mg, at which point they do displace antibodies.
 
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Collden

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Interesting discussion about SFAs, coconut oil and endotoxin. I experienced a huge energy boost the first few days of starting coconut oil consumption (around 40-50g/day) and dropping other fats, but after that have just felt progressively worse over the course of a week, especially upset stomach, bloating and brain fog. Gonna try switching back to olive oil.

In regards to milk, I really think some populations are just better genetically adapted than others to consume regular milk. I've tried giving up milk a few times and never experienced any benefits, just felt massively deprived, I also consume homogenised and pasteurised milk.

I've tried other kinds and while some taste nicer, imho whether the milk is pasteurised, homogenised, has added vitamins, grass-fed, type of casein, etc - it all matters much less than whether milk consumption is in your evolutionary heritage or not. I'd be interested to know if any scandinavians or north europeans experienced benefits from giving up milk.
 
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Cirion

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I think MCT are helpful. I used to take pure MCT and always did fine with it, where as coconut oil had bad effects.

Didn't Ray recommend refined CO because some people react negatively to unrefined?
 
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So allergy maybe?

No. I simply don’t do well with a lot of fat, particularly saturated fat. MCT is something of an exception, however I never experienced any metabolism boost from it so I stopped buying it. There was a time I took 1 tbsp mct every morning in coffee.

Didn't Ray recommend refined CO because some people react negatively to unrefined?

I only used refined, I still have a some left.
 
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Interesting discussion about SFAs, coconut oil and endotoxin. I experienced a huge energy boost the first few days of starting coconut oil consumption (around 40-50g/day) and dropping other fats, but after that have just felt progressively worse over the course of a week, especially upset stomach, bloating and brain fog. Gonna try switching back to olive oil.

Similar to my experience. Weight gain, lethargy, dull mood. I was exercising and eating a well balanced diet yet gained about 10 pounds all around my gut in just 3 months. I saw a huge increase in visceral fat. The irony here is that I was eating coconut oil in hopes that it would fix my gut, I believed it could tame candida etc... this defense I keep hearing about how it will fix the gut conflicts 100% with my experience. Going back to dairy, dairy has the same depressant effect on me and noticeably stalls my ability to lose fat.

I think that if one is already overweight, not purely from overeating or low thyroid but from a health issue like fatty liver or prediabetes etc, that likely one is experiencing low-grade endotoxemia and gut dysbiosis. In this case, high fat can be damaging, and particularly high sfa will be because of the way it increases endotoxin. I suspect the reason some people see miraculous results with sfa is due to the state of their gut bacteria. Since we all have a different distribution of bacteria, we all will react a bit differently.
 
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Cirion

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Keep in mind that RP recommends small dose CO. He only intakes like 1, maybe 2 tbsp of CO a day at most from what I gathered from his articles. CO definitely seems to "fall off the cliff" of usefulness quickly for sure. 1-2 tbsp, probably beneficial, too much more than that... not so much, because of the DHT lowering effects. I stopped "directly" eating CO at all nowadays. I do put 1-2 TBSP in it in a pan to cook my beef with but that's it.

I only played with making CO my main fat in an attempt to do PUFA depletion and because I read in some other places like Jack Kruse that CO should be the main fat if sick. It made sense at first, seeing as MCT oils get so much talk around these forums, but yeah, CO as main fat does not work, at least if you plan to still eat moderately high fat.

I think CO can be main fat as long as you plan to eat less than a few TBSP of it. I got into trouble I think because I ate as much as 10 table spoon a day lol.
 

Collden

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Cirion, what you mentioned earlier about MUFAs being critical to health, it got me thinking about the populations of the Mediterranean. Its my impression that these populations have among the lowest incidences of hypothyroidism and best hormonal status, men with very high DHT levels, etc. Is it just coincidence that the main dietary fat in this region is olive oil?

The debate about dietary fats so very often focus on SFA vs PUFA, with both camps extolling the virtues or dangers of either, but the relevance of dietary MUFAs for health hasn't been touched on much. It seems though that they can provide all of the advantages of dietary fat (testosterone, digestion) with none of the adverse effects claimed for either SFA or PUFA.
 
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This is a big simplification of the matter, but fat + protein shifts the gut microbiome a different direction than carbs.
The Prevotella to Bacterioides ratio, which evidently relates closely to body fat.

Linking Long-Term Dietary Patterns with Gut Microbial Enterotypes

Pre-treatment microbial <i>Prevotella</i>-to-<i>Bacteroides</i> ratio, determines body fat loss success during a 6-month randomized controlled diet intervention

My guess is my ratio was already terrible, and increasing coconut oil did not help.
I had weight loss success with coconut oil many years before, but I was in better health then.
 

Cirion

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Cirion, what you mentioned earlier about MUFAs being critical to health, it got me thinking about the populations of the Mediterranean. Its my impression that these populations have among the lowest incidences of hypothyroidism and best hormonal status, men with very high DHT levels, etc. Is it just coincidence that the main dietary fat in this region is olive oil?

The debate about dietary fats so very often focus on SFA vs PUFA, with both camps extolling the virtues or dangers of either, but the relevance of dietary MUFAs for health hasn't been touched on much. It seems though that they can provide all of the advantages of dietary fat (testosterone, digestion) with none of the adverse effects claimed for either SFA or PUFA.

Whenever I think of MUFA being beneficial I find myself going back to this study/chart. this study showed that MUFA is literally as useful as SFA for raising T levels. The only advantage SFA has over MUFA, is that SFA also can help displace the effects of PUFA. That's one thing MUFA can not do. But that doesn't seem to mean that SFA should necessarily be more than MUFA, at least that's my take away. So MUFA is useful for increasing androgens, but SFA is useful for increasing androgens AND mitigating the harmful effects of PUFA. I actually wonder if SFA is less useful if one is lean and/or low in PUFA intake? Just speculation. I hypothesize this, based upon my experiences going ultra low PUFA but high SFA and not seemingly getting any androgen benefits based upon libido, mood etc. Very few fats in nature are pure SFA. Usually fats have a decent amount of MUFA with them as well. I feel like SFA and MUFA should be combined for max benefits...

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jappl.1997.82.1.49
fat_tlevels.png
 
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mistake post
 

Cirion

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FWIW not to introduce TMI but the last few days I have reliably getting a boner from eating grass fed beef with copious butter added on top. My libido was almost zero before I started upping dietary fat intake, so this is an accomplishment for me. I know being healthy is more than just libido, but I know for a fact personally that libido is almost directly correlated to my current health.

What's strange is the last two days I have had lower than normal waking temps (97.8, 97.9) which is somewhat concerning to me because I had made progress in 98+F waking temps, BUT after my caffeine intake in the morning, seems easier than the past to turn my metabolism on for the day whereas before I might be dragging along clear up until the afternoon without ever really "waking up" lol.

My hunger seems to have increased a lot too which to me is a good sign - hunger seems correlated to stress levels for me. High stress = low appetite, low stress = high appetite.

Certain fats definitely have different effects on me. I think milk fat is not good for me. Whenever I have ice cream it seems to knock me out. Anything that knocks me out I consider an anti-thyroid food as serotonin/estrogen/tryptophan/melatonin are the "knock out" mechanisms/hormones.
 
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Collden

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I agree I suspect its best to keep MUFAS and SFAs at least in equal proportions. The issue with eating a lot of fatty dairy may be that its predominantly saturated fat. Meat fat on the other hand is generally more balanced between SFA:MUFA.

So, cheese + olive oil = fatty goodness.
 

Kartoffel

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FWIW not to introduce TMI but the last few days I have reliably getting a boner from eating grass fed beef with copious butter added on top. My libido was almost zero before I started upping dietary fat intake, so this is an accomplishment for me. I know being healthy is more than just libido, but I know for a fact personally that libido is almost directly correlated to my current health.

What's strange is the last two days I have had lower than normal waking temps (97.8, 97.9) which is somewhat concerning to me because I had made progress in 98+F waking temps, BUT after my caffeine intake in the morning, seems easier than the past to turn my metabolism on for the day whereas before I might be dragging along clear up until the afternoon without ever really "waking up" lol.

My hunger seems to have increased a lot too which to me is a good sign - hunger seems correlated to stress levels for me. High stress = low appetite, low stress = high appetite.

Certain fats definitely have different effects on me. I think milk fat is not good for me. Whenever I have ice cream it seems to knock me out. Anything that knocks me out I consider an anti-thyroid food as serotonin/estrogen/tryptophan/melatonin are the "knock out" mechanisms/hormones.

You add copious amounts of butter to your food, saying that it increases your libido, and then say that milk fat is not good for you?
 

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