Biofilm Annihilation

[Kyle M]

Main point is I believe the turpentine is what allowed the other stuff to be more effective. Probably because it dissolves biofilms. But it also kills some bacteria and parasites on its own. Powerful stuff.

You've made a compelling case, I'm considering adding 2-3 weekly turpentine doses to my protocol.

P.S. - Do you put the tsp of turpentine on a tbsp of sugar?

 

[whodathunkit]

Well, I did for the last few days, but now it seems to be 90% better! Almost gone. I ate some liver the last 2 days, because it's the one thing I never eat, so probably something in it I was missing. Maybe the A, or B vitamins.

That's good! Glad it's resolved. :)

Liver is a decent source of folate, BTW. Folate is just another B vitamin...I think they call it B9. Liver has about 200mcg folate per quarter pound. Plus it's got all the other goodies like B2 and B12 that folate needs to run.

 

[Kyle M]

Musings on the nature of gut problems:

If a food causes you gut distress, and it didn't previously, there are only two reasons. One being that your gut has changed, the cells themselves have been weak and easily irritated. For example if you used to be able to eat spicy food, and now it gives you intestinal discomfort. The other reason is that a change has occurred due to bacteria or other microorganisms. This is the basis for the whole Ray Peat kill the bacteria thing.

I keep mulling the idea around in my head, what is going on in the gut when someone is having symptoms? I would love to be able to *see* the bacterial colonies, the nutrients and how they are absorbed by enterocytes and how they are absorbed by bacteria. How the enterocytes react to bacteria and their secretions. What it looks like when a healthy gut encounters an irritant like capsaicin, vs. a gut that is easily irritated.

It seems to me that doctors spend no time at all thinking in this way about the symptoms their patients describe. They have this basket, nothing diagnosis of IBS and just throw everything that can't be diagnosed from a blood or stool test into that. Then they either prescribe drugs or pass it off as untreatable.

When I see someone who can eat a meal and their stomach looks the same as before the meal, I'm fascinated. What is the difference between them and someone who has a lot of bloating? If you could see the inner workings of their GI, what would be the difference?

I'm starting to see the body from two perspectives, the gut and the cell. Humans are basically a worm (the gut) with a bunch of muscle, skeleton to push against with the muscle, and a complex nervous system to tell the muscle what to interact with. The whole system is there, from the brain to the toe musculature, to get stuff to put in the worm. The worm then nourishes itself and the rest of the supportive system. The worm is the cell.
Likewise the cell, what's going on cell to cell, is a useful perspective. But all of these gut issues leads me to believe that the worm is out of whack. How strange that putting nutrition into the worm, the whole point of the whole body, would make the body feel crappy.

 

[whodathunkit]

You've made a compelling case, I'm considering adding 2-3 weekly turpentine doses to my protocol.

Also to consider is that it's not the worst thing in the world to smell pine when you're in the loo. Interphase never did a thing for me in that department. :p

I got this stuff off Amazon: Amazon.com: 16 Oz 100% Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine but they also have a store you can get different sizes.

If you do turp, please drop the other things that can irritate your gut like the enzymes. Enzymes did almost ruin my gut once and I can't imagine trying to do them at the same time as turp. Probably you already thought about that, just mentioning in case you haven't.

I considered the gut irritation potential of everything I used with the turpentine. The clove and black walnut hull tinctures were occasional add-in because of high irritation potential and mediocre efficacy overall. Oil of oregano can be very irritating, too, but I decided to use it because it's quite a powerful anti-fungal and antibiotic. Better than garlic, IMO/IME. It worked out well for me but if you decide to try just be aware.

Good luck! Keep us posted! :)

 

[Such_Saturation]

How much did you take? Topical or oral and for how long? Thanks!

I get a bottle every now and then. Just a few drops in mouth or on skin.

 

[Regina]

Musings on the nature of gut problems:

If a food causes you gut distress, and it didn't previously, there are only two reasons. One being that your gut has changed, the cells themselves have been weak and easily irritated. For example if you used to be able to eat spicy food, and now it gives you intestinal discomfort. The other reason is that a change has occurred due to bacteria or other microorganisms. This is the basis for the whole Ray Peat kill the bacteria thing.

I keep mulling the idea around in my head, what is going on in the gut when someone is having symptoms? I would love to be able to *see* the bacterial colonies, the nutrients and how they are absorbed by enterocytes and how they are absorbed by bacteria. How the enterocytes react to bacteria and their secretions. What it looks like when a healthy gut encounters an irritant like capsaicin, vs. a gut that is easily irritated.

It seems to me that doctors spend no time at all thinking in this way about the symptoms their patients describe. They have this basket, nothing diagnosis of IBS and just throw everything that can't be diagnosed from a blood or stool test into that. Then they either prescribe drugs or pass it off as untreatable.

When I see someone who can eat a meal and their stomach looks the same as before the meal, I'm fascinated. What is the difference between them and someone who has a lot of bloating? If you could see the inner workings of their GI, what would be the difference?

I'm starting to see the body from two perspectives, the gut and the cell. Humans are basically a worm (the gut) with a bunch of muscle, skeleton to push against with the muscle, and a complex nervous system to tell the muscle what to interact with. The whole system is there, from the brain to the toe musculature, to get stuff to put in the worm. The worm then nourishes itself and the rest of the supportive system. The worm is the cell.
Likewise the cell, what's going on cell to cell, is a useful perspective. But all of these gut issues leads me to believe that the worm is out of whack. How strange that putting nutrition into the worm, the whole point of the whole body, would make the body feel crappy.

I like the way you are thinking about it.

 

[Birdie]

Also to consider is that it's not the worst thing in the world to smell pine when you're in the loo. Interphase never did a thing for me in that department. :p

I got this stuff off Amazon: Amazon.com: 16 Oz 100% Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine but they also have a store you can get different sizes.

If you do turp, please drop the other things that can irritate your gut like the enzymes. Enzymes did almost ruin my gut once and I can't imagine trying to do them at the same time as turp. Probably you already thought about that, just mentioning in case you haven't.

I considered the gut irritation potential of everything I used with the turpentine. The clove and black walnut hull tinctures were occasional add-in because of high irritation potential and mediocre efficacy overall. Oil of oregano can be very irritating, too, but I decided to use it because it's quite a powerful anti-fungal and antibiotic. Better than garlic, IMO/IME. It worked out well for me but if you decide to try just be aware.

Good luck! Keep us posted! :)

It's amazing how the price has gone up. I seem to recall some problem with the supply a couple of years back.
When I was painting, loved the smell of the stuff, but it made my husband ill. Interesting that he has chronic hay fever hacking, and now, an inflamed colon.

 

[Birdie]

I get a bottle every now and then. Just a few drops in mouth or on skin.

I used to get a lot of it on my hands with painting. A health treatment!

 

[raypeatclips]

@Kyle M How are the gut experiments going?

 

[Kyle M]

@Kyle M How are the gut experiments going?

No benefit on symptoms yet. No ill effects either, although a week in I started tasting the peppermint oil in burps. In a few days I'll be rotating a diff antibiotic.

 

[whodathunkit]

No benefit on symptoms yet. No ill effects either, although a week in I started tasting the peppermint oil in burps. In a few days I'll be rotating a diff antibiotic.

Did you get the turp?

 

[Kyle M]

Did you get the turp?

I already had some from my first RPF-sourced SIBO experiments last Summer. I will give it a try, as per your protocol, when I'm done with what I'm trying now. It'll be about a month.

 

[whodathunkit]

I already had some from my first RPF-sourced SIBO experiments last Summer. I will give it a try, as per your protocol, when I'm done with what I'm trying now. It'll be about a month.

Okay, thanks. Interested to know how that turns out when you get done with it. Good luck, keep us posted! :)

 

[Birdie]

Does anybody know what Peat says about turpentine? (Being an artist myself, I remember he liked to use it for painting.) I did a couple of searches and couldn't find anything about his opinion. I love the smell of it and got plenty on my fingers.

 

[Kyle M]

Update: When I was using the Interphase/peppermint oil combination (twice a day on empty stomach, missed one or two doses over the 1.5 weeks I did it) I didn't notice much symptom improvement. The peppermint oil seemed to cause me mild constipation. I don't know if I should call it constipation because it didn't feel like anything, but I was having less bowel movements and they were smaller. Maybe that's a good thing. Another thing I noticed was that about half of the way through my time using peppermint oil, I would feel "weird" after taking it. It's hard to describe the feelings you get when your gut is doing something, sometimes you just feel icky inside, or a little more cold or hot than you normally would at the current temperature. Sometimes I would feel like I was going to get a headache, but not really get one. It's an off feeling. The peppermint oil was also on my breath a lot, and I could taste it in burps sometimes.

I had a schedule where I was going to switch to the next antibiotic, oregano oil, and continue with the Interphase, then switch out the Interphase to NAC and move on to the next antibiotic, Alli-C (garlic extract of some sort). I ended up deciding I should rotate them even more than that, so rather than stick with one combination for a week or so I have been going back and forth between the garlic and oregano antibiotics, and switching Interphase and NAC as well, for the past few days. None of the supplements make me feel weird like peppermint oil did, although I do sometimes taste the oregano oil or garlic after a burp.

Overall, I feel slightly less bloaty than I usually do, but this may be because of a dietary change I just tried. I've noticed that for a carb food, rice makes my stomach bloat less than potatoes, so I've been eating a lot of rice.

I'm going to keep up with my rotation regimen until most of these things are used up, and see if any more drastic changes occur, but at this point I believe that they aren't getting to the root of the problem. The concept of SIBO + biofilm fits with my symptoms and experiences very well, but none of the treatments I've heard of people successfully using for that have done anything for me. Maybe it will be a longer term project where I have to deplete iron or ramp up metabolism or who knows what. That will probably be my next step, radical iron depletion, or trying turpentine again. Perhaps red light on my tummy every day. At least I know some foods that seem to bother me less than others, but I would love to be able to eat a greater variety of foods without having problems.

 

[TubZy]

Manuka Honey

 

[Waynish]

I wonder how many regimens we have to try before we're willing to admit we know basically nothing about how our body is working, except for the experience it gives us...

 

[Kyle M]

I wonder how many regimens we have to try before we're willing to admit we know basically nothing about how our body is working, except for the experience it gives us...

Good question. Hearing accounts of other people's success and the principles behind it keeps me believing even in the face of failure.

 

[Waynish]

Good question. Hearing accounts of other people's success and the principles behind it keeps me believing even in the face of failure.

But maybe times the body just heals itself and people attribute it to their own behaviors - or the sun rising or setting.

 

[Kyle M]

But maybe times the body just heals itself and people attribute it to their own behaviors - or the sun rising or setting.

That probably happens for a lot of things, but persistent gut issues that cease after a specific treatment likely aren't coincidental.