Biofilm Annihilation

[Such_Saturation]

How would accutane cause low A symptoms? By competing with Vitamin A "receptor" sites ?

Probably... that's how they claim it causes birth defects... and it could be too potent in regards to certain roles of vitamin A and too weak in regards to others... so all in all it's long term damage. I know someone who claims it made his hair straight, and that's just the side effect he was willing to share... and this is someone who is extra skeptic about real effects of medicines in general...

 

[whodathunkit]

I'll give that some thought as I do want to stop the NAC even though it has been nothing but helpful. Will have to review exactly what B Vitamins I take/used to take. Thanks.

Welcome.

Another thing to take into account is that if you take something with folic acid in it, it can actually block your body from using folate. I wish I could remember the wherefore's of it all, but through this journey cognition and memory have been subpar...quite subpar at times...so am not up to snuff on explanations. Suffice it to say that the byproducts of the body metabolising folic acid into usable folate can be toxic, and can block the use of active folate, especially in people with certain mutations. So if you're taking anything with folic acid in it you could actually be exacerbating a folate deficiency.

Point is, when reviewing your B's, double-check to make sure there's no folic acid in any complex (multivitamin or B vitamin) you take. It can get confusing because a lot of people still don't understand the difference between folic acid and folate, and so use the terms interchangeably. To be safe I just stay away from anything that says folic acid on the label.

 

[kayumochi]

Welcome.

Another thing to take into account is that if you take something with folic acid in it, it can actually block your body from using folate. I wish I could remember the wherefore's of it all, but through this journey cognition and memory have been subpar...quite subpar at times...so am not up to snuff on explanations. Suffice it to say that the byproducts of the body metabolising folic acid into usable folate can be toxic, and can block the use of active folate, especially in people with certain mutations.

Point is, when reviewing your B's, double-check to make sure there's no folic acid in any complex (multivitamin or B vitamin) you take. It can get confusing because a lot of people still don't understand the difference between folic acid and folate, and so use the terms interchangeably. To be safe I just stay away from anything that says folic acid on the label.

I have to admit I do not understand the difference between folic acid and folate ...

 

[kayumochi]

Accutane was originally a chemo drug ... luckily my exposure was limited ...

 

[whodathunkit]

I have to admit I do not understand the difference between folic acid and folate ...

Here's a good article:

L-Methylfolate, Methylfolate, 5-MTHF, L-5-MTHF. Why many variations?

Basically, if it doesn't explicitly list one of these forms on the label, I stay away. Some people report different effects with the 6(s) form, but that depends a lot on the individual. I prefer the L-methylfolate calcium salts myself. Metafolin is a good brand, easy to get (my local Whole Foods stocks it, as do most online supp vendors), and relatively cheap.

BTW, do some research on this before you decide jump in. If you decide...it's strictly a personal decision.

The site linked above has some good info. Taking folate can cause undesirable sides in some people, especially people with certain mutations. I had a hard time with it at first...I got sick and crashed with flu-like immune symptoms, etc., even though I have no MTHFR mutations. I think I was severely deficient in both folate and B12, plus my liver wasn't functioning all that well. But in the main sides from folate are usually benign and transient and most people can take it with no problem. Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[Amazoniac]

I am familiar with the Riboflavin - crack connection. Taking the supplement didn't help. Dunno.

There's a theory that angular cheilitis (cracks in the corner of mouth) has to do with folate deficiency. NOT folic acid, but active folate. I don't know if there's scientific evidence to back this up, but I have found folate deficiency to bring on angular cheilitis in my case. Taking active folate like Solgar's Metafolin cures it. I escalated dosage until the cracks disappeared. And of course, folate needs B2 to work. If someone is riboflavin deficient that could possibly cause cracks, too, maybe because none of the B vitamins can work properly without riboflavin. But I've found cracks in the corners of my mouth to be resolved with folate supplementation, not B2.

Folate may also need adequate B12 to work properly, as well. The interactions between the B vitamins seems to be very interdependent and complex. But there are medical doctors and nutritionists who understand the connection between B12 and folate, and use it therapeutically. The two have been instrumental in my recovery from CFS.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/homocysteine-never-goes-down.13627/page-4#post-225128
From the same source:
"The food sources of riboflavin are similar to those of other B vitamins. Therefore, it is not surprising that if a given individual's diet has inadequate amounts of riboflavin, it is very likely to be inadequate in other vitamins as well. A primary deficiency of dietary riboflavin has wide implications for other vitamins, as flavin coenzymes are involved in the metabolism of folic acid, pyridoxine, vitamin K, niacin, and vitamin D (22)."

 

[Amazoniac]

Photodynamic inactivation of biofilm: taking a lightly colored approach to stubborn infection
Antimicrobial photodynamic therapy: An overview
Red Light Therapy, Lights, Supplemental Lighting
Bacteria Can Hydrogenate PUFA Into SFA

Methylene blue and red light combined can be a good option:

(from: Dairy - Package Protection And Preservation)

@Kyle M

 

[whodathunkit]

From the same source:
"The food sources of riboflavin are similar to those of other B vitamins. Therefore, it is not surprising that if a given individual's diet has inadequate amounts of riboflavin, it is very likely to be inadequate in other vitamins as well. A primary deficiency of dietary riboflavin has wide implications for other vitamins, as flavin coenzymes are involved in the metabolism of folic acid, pyridoxine, vitamin K, niacin, and vitamin D (22)."

I am not talking about food sources of riboflavin or folate. I am not talking about theories from Peat or any other scientists waxing philosophical on the implications of this or that food source or lack thereof. I'm talking about my *experience* with isolated folate supplements resolving cracks in the corners of my mouth, ABSENT taking any isolated riboflavin.

Riboflavin didn't resolve it. Folate did. Period.

 

[Amazoniac]

I am not talking about food sources of riboflavin or folate. I am not talking about theories from Peat or any other scientists waxing philosophical on the implications of this or that food source or lack thereof. I'm talking about my *experience* with isolated folate supplements resolving cracks in the corners of my mouth, ABSENT taking any isolated riboflavin.

Riboflavin didn't resolve it. Folate did. Period.

And when did I challenge your experience? I was just reinforcing that they interact. Period days?

 

[whodathunkit]

And when did I challenge your experience? I was just reinforcing that they interact. Period days?

Your quote seems to lump food sources of all the B vitamins together and to imply that riboflavin is still at the root of the subject of the thread, *contra* my experience. I was merely reiterating that my real-world experience--rather than scientific philosophizing/theorizing--was that folate and not riboflavin was the root of the problem. And particularly so if riboflavin supplementation has been tried and found to be ineffective.

Hypersensitive much? Man-period day for you?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Occam's razor would tell us that rather than some undercooked potato somehow growing his bacteria which somehow will produce vitamin B which somehow will resolve a deficiency. It's vitamin A that is the problem. It's one step. And he even took Accutane and has CLL which is related to the vitamin A system. I am sorry that we continue to deceive someone in distress.

 

[Amazoniac]

Your quote seems to lump food sources of all the B vitamins together and to imply that riboflavin is still at the root of the subject of the thread, *contra* my experience. I was merely reiterating that my real-world experience--rather than scientific philosophizing/theorizing--was that folate and not riboflavin was the root of the problem. And particularly so if riboflavin supplementation has been tried and found to be ineffective.

You insist that I'm implying that he has a riboflavin deficiency. He clearly stated that it's not case.
My comment was actually complementing yours.
Since those deficiencies don't often occur alone, it's difficult to sort them with foods, because those that are great sources of vitamin A often have a good amount of b-vits, including folate.

Hypersensitive much? Man-period day for you?

+

 

[whodathunkit]

Cracked corners of the mouth is a classic symptom of riboflavin deficiency, and when a region is fragilized, avoiding any irritant counts.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10297373_Synthesis_of_riboflavin_by_intestinal_bacteria

Homocysteine Never Goes Down
From the same source:
"The food sources of riboflavin are similar to those of other B vitamins. Therefore, it is not surprising that if a given individual's diet has inadequate amounts of riboflavin, it is very likely to be inadequate in other vitamins as well. A primary deficiency of dietary riboflavin has wide implications for other vitamins, as flavin coenzymes are involved in the metabolism of folic acid, pyridoxine, vitamin K, niacin, and vitamin D (22)."

You're the one that apparently keeps bringing up riboflavin as a primary culprit in the problems brought up in this thread. I don't know what else to make of it. You're expecting me to read between lines that are not visible to me. And no, I'm not taking time to read the links. Quoting is supposed to point you to the pith of your link so that your reader doesn't have to go there unless they want to and have time. Which, I don't and I don't. And again, from what you've quoted, the pith appears to be riboflavin. If that's not the pith you want to convey then you might consider picking different quotes.

At any rate, this is a dumb argument. I freely admit that adequate riboflavin is necessary to help the other B's do their jobs. I said as much in one of my posts. I'm not anti-riboflavin and am in fact well aware of its importance.

And I am definitely not saying that folate or riboflavin will, by themselves, cure any damage from Accutane. That would be crazy talk.

What I was speaking about was my experience with angular cheilitis *only*, and how it was resolved with folate supplmentation sans any supplemented riboflavin. If someone's got cracks in the corners of the mouth that haven't been amenable to any other solution, IMO folate is worth a try. YMMV.

 

[Amazoniac]

You're the one that apparently keeps bringing up riboflavin as a primary culprit in the problems brought up in this thread. I don't know what else to make of it. You're expecting me to read between lines that are not visible to me. And no, I'm not taking time to read the links. Quoting is supposed to point you to the pith of your link so that your reader doesn't have to go there unless they want to and have time. Which, I don't and I don't. And again, from what you've quoted, the pith appears to be riboflavin. If that's not the pith you want to convey then you might consider picking different quotes.

At any rate, this is a dumb argument. I freely admit that adequate riboflavin is necessary to help the other B's do their jobs. I said as much in one of my posts. I'm not anti-riboflavin and am in fact well aware of its importance.

And I am definitely not saying that folate or riboflavin will, by themselves, cure any damage from Accutane. That would be crazy talk.

What I was speaking about was my experience with angular cheilitis *only*, and how it was resolved with folate supplmentation. If someone's got cracks in the corners of the mouth that haven't been amenable to any other solution, IMO folate is worth a try. YMMV.

Me, me, me all along. My experience, my time, my quotes, etc.
I was complementing your post, despite the fact that he stated that it wasn't a riboflavin deficiency, because others could get something interesting out of it. In fact, if those deviations weren't useful, this subject wouldn't have even appeared on a biofilm thread.

 

[whodathunkit]

Me, me, me all along. My experience, my time, my quotes, etc.

LOL, methinks thou dost project too much.

Bye, Amazon. Thanks for clarifying everything!

 

[Kyle M]

I bought a bottle of Jarrow Formulas N-A-C Bilayer Tables, Sustain (sustained release?)

Dosage is 600mg per tablet. How many and how often should I take this to combat SIBO? I've been taking one 600mg tablet 3 times per day, for one day, and haven't noticed anything yet. I still think it might be a good idea to combine it with antibiotic.

 

[misery guts]

OMG. Please please please PLEASE DO NOT DO THAT REGIMEN TWICE PER DAY!!

That's A LOT of stuff. I hate to say this because I don't want to sound negative, but ALL of that, especially if used daily, together, has the potential to really tear your guts up. Fast. Two times per day will probably make you very sick, and NOT from die off. You could wind up in the hospital with a hole in your guts.

I found turpentine to be a really powerful biofilm buster. IMO you don't need the natto and serapeptase if you're doing turpentine. I've done all three and turpentine is by far the best for biofilms/mucous, and much more economical than the other two. Plus, any of those substances can cause gut problems if you do too much of them, but all three together...yikes!

Also, ONLY a TEASPOON of turpentine at a time. Standard rec is a teaspoon *a couple times per week*. I did it daily for a while with good effect, but only for a short while. Few weeks at most. Please don't do more than a teaspoon daily for longer than that. It's very potent. Interesting when your poo smells like pine trees, though.

Are you doing straight-up methylene blue out of the bottle? If so I'd dilute to whatever the recommended strength is (I forget but it's easily google-able). 30 drops full strength is probably not necessary and could cause you problems. Especially with the TMG, which is also a methyl donor. I've used both and can feel myself getting jittery and anxious just reading your dosages.

Ginger and cinnamon alone could cause you stomach problems using them together, but especially if you use them with everything else. The abx, methylene blue, and oregano oil will probably take adequate care of the pathogens. Might want to throw some pau d'arco tinture in there for candida, but if not it's still probably adequate.

I don't know much about allicin powder since I haven't used it, but if it has any history at all as a gut irritant (like its parent, garlic), you probably want to skip it.

Also, if you decide to keep the vinegar, make sure to take it with plenty of water.

Just be careful. I would most definitely NOT take your entire regimen 2x/day. Also, cut the things I advise, at minimum. I speak from experience, having used almost everything on your list at one time or other.

Added: I don't think there's really a need for ketosis/low carb when attacking fungi. I didn't go low carb and had great results with a much smaller version of your regimen last summer. There's a school of thought that says that depriving fungi and candida of food just sends them into hibernation in the tissues, making them harder for therapeutics to reach and kill them. This makes sense to me.

There's a book on Amazon called "Candida: Killing So Sweetly" that might be of help to you. There's good info in there, allthough I did disagree with some of it.

Finally: doing all this while water fasting on top of three weeks' ketosis doesn't sound like a good idea. Your liver is a primary route of detox and it needs glycogen to function optimally. You want optimal liver function when detoxing. But it's probably already glycogen depleted, so dumping all these toxins on it (because you're going to get die-off and most of these substances can be toxic in and of themselves, even without any die-off) probably isn't the best way to go. IMO/IME eating lightly and healthily while taking this stuff is more supportive of detox than water fasting. Fresh fruit, light protein, maybe white rice, etc. Small amount of healthy fat.

Good luck. Again, please be very careful. I'm a little afraid for you right now. This is a marathon, not a sprint. When it comes to doing stuff to your gut, less over a longer haul is better. You don't want to cause more problems for yourself. Do some more research on dosages and combining stuff.

Just want to thank you for this. I ended up trying once a day and didn't really use the cinnamon/ginger/vinegar. I've since completed a two week course of the elixa probiotic (along with Clostridium Butyricum) and have now moved on to a phage probiotic. My stools have certainly improved! I think maybe a mild effect on depression/arthritis but will see how it goes. I think I'm going to keep using NAC for a while. Idk.. :/

 

[whodathunkit]

Just want to thank you for this. I ended up trying once a day and didn't really use the cinnamon/ginger/vinegar. I've since completed a two week course of the elixa probiotic (along with Clostridium Butyricum) and have now moved on to a phage probiotic. My stools have certainly improved! I think maybe a mild effect on depression/arthritis but will see how it goes. I think I'm going to keep using NAC for a while. Idk.. :/

Good news! Nice poos are a thing of joy. :p

I was honestly a little worried we hadn't heard from you. :)

Also wanted to say, FWIW, that probiotics don't necessarily decrease inflammatory symptoms like arthritis or depression, and can increase inflammatory symptoms in some. My experience has been that they can if my gut is in bad shape but they don't if it's better. No idea what the mechanism is there except maybe an increase in endotoxin. There's a really good thread over at Phoenix Rising called "The Resistant Starch Challenge", if you haven't read it and want to. I don't know if it's still active but there's a lot of good info in that thread about reactions from experiementing with probx. Sadly, they've tightened restrictions on what people post about over there, but at least you can read it without posting.

Point is, targeted, short-term probx use seems to be most useful. Pulsing with a lot of time between bouts of ingestion. Taking them daily for an extended period of time, even if you're using different strains or brands every day, doesn't seem to be particularly beneficial.

What phage probiotic are you trying? Interested in checking it out.

Also FWIW, NAC doesn't do me well over the long haul. In the past I've gotten short term benefit from it...especially when combined with glycine and glutamine to boost glutathione production...but then it winds up making me feel crappy. Stopping it resolves the crappiness, and like with almost everything that seems to have an effect on my immune system, I seem a little better overall after I come out of the crappiness. But still, it's another one that taking it daily for an extended period of time may not be beneficial for everyone. I have never noticed that it had an effect on my gut, though. Never noticed any changes with NAC except in my mood.

Anyway, again, good luck with ongoing endeavors. Glad to hear of improvements. I'm going to do another round of targeted gut cleansing myself within the next couple months. I plan to use a more Peaty, gentle abx targeting gram negative bacteria plus the turp, MB, pau d'arco, etc., for biofilm and fungus.

 

[bionicheart]

hahahaha

 

[tomisonbottom]

What I was speaking about was my experience with angular cheilitis *only*, and how it was resolved with folate supplmentation sans any supplemented riboflavin. If someone's got cracks in the corners of the mouth that haven't been amenable to any other solution, IMO folate is worth a try. YMMV.

How much did you use and for how long?