low progesterone, and low estrogen

[rtrollinger]

'I'm curious what your pulse is like, considering you are a runner...... when I ran regularly, my resting pulse could drop as low as 45 bpm. Ray Peat suggests 80 - 90 beat per minute at rest is good."

I was around 60-65. I believe that a low pulse rate (not as low as yours or mine) is actually good. For me in my body, the probably ideal I would think is around 70. I haven't researched that as much as Peat, but I had thought that a lowish pulse was a sign of not too much strain on the body. Hmm...

 

[Faymus]

I am so so worried........
Please can someone help me?
I am 33 and I was on the contraceptive pill for 15 years. Approximately 8 months ago I decided to stop to try for a baby.
Initially I had bad stomach pains but they subsided. I have had very bad PMT (poor bf), headaches (seems to subside when I increased my water intake), I have been feeling dizzy mostly first thing in the morning then they wear off by the afternoon.
I didn't track the first 4 months of my period but they were happening and didn't notice any concerns. The last 3 months I began tracking.
September - pretty normal 26 day cycle.
October - stopped and started over a 6/7 day period.
November - started on exact day I predicted.
Then it all started going pear shaped......
December - period never appeared.
Started with slight hot flushes. Went to the doctors who sent me for blood tests to test for early menopause and thyroid function etc etc.
This is when I started to panick!!! Menopause?!?! I'm 33!!!!!! I been worried all over Christmas playing on my mind constantly.
Had my blood test results..... Doctor said "estrogen levels are a level that I would expect from a woman in her late 40s early 50s on their menopause, I will send you to a specialist or your body getting used to coming off the pill".
Well let's put it this way.... I have not stopped crying since being to the doctors 5 days ago.
I can't go through menopause yet!!!! I want children!! 7 months of being off pill, 7 periods then just suddenly stopped?!?! Can this happen?
Missed my second period too that was due 6 days ago too.
I'm getting myself in a right state over it! To the point my family are worried about me.
What are your views on my situation? Please help I need some help in knowing what this could be! Menopause or just effects of coming off pill?
Please help? Thankyou.

 

[Jennifer]

Hi Faymus,

HDD mentioned that Ray has indicated that low blood levels of estrogen can indicate high levels in your tissues. Here's a quote from Ray's article entitled Tissue-bound estrogen in aging:

"The concentration of a hormone in the blood doesn't directly represent the concentration in the various organs."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ti ... ogen.shtml

Also, here's what Lindsay told me in my recovery log:

"When I originally wrote to RP, he mentioned that I could have a cycle without actual menstruation, as it has to do with the LH and FSH numbers. If those numbers are in range, a woman will cycle."

Many of us came from being "diagnosed" as menopausal at a young age and overcame it. Some used progest-e (natural progesterone). Some used Vitex (chaste berry). Some recovered with just a change in diet. For me, leaving behind the high carb raw vegan diet and adding back animal proteins to get my weight up, helped. Then taking progest-e got me out of a PCOS diagnoses. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if your wonky cycle is due to coming off the pill.

Have you read any of Ray's articles on estrogen and progesterone? If you haven't, please do so because I think they'll greatly relieve your worries. Knowledge is power.

Here's the link to his article index. Just click into the articles on estrogen, progesterone ect.

http://raypeat.com/articles/

So please don't cry. Everything will be fine and I'm sending you a big hug. :)

 

[purelaur]

Faymus, the exact same thing happened to me. My endocrinologist is now testing my pituitary to see if I may have hypopituitarism, and she also suspects that stress may be the cause. I'm curious though if I could have high estrogen tissue concentration when (excuse my naivete) I'm relatively thin? I'm also only 22, though I did consume a lot of estrogenic soy, greens and nuts as a vegan.

Adding animal protein back into my diet (post veganism) had the opposite effect on me: I dropped weight, even though increasing overall calories (to what I think is a natural weight for me). It's confusing...

 

[Faymus]

Thankyou so much Jennifer.
I will have a read of that tonight Thankyou.

Yes my mum went to get me some chaste berry but they didn't sell it so she came back with all sorts of Estrogen supplements so been popping them for a few days now

I hope it's just my periods being wonky. Listening to you all it does sound like it to me too. So Thankyou very much for taking the time out to reply to me it's very very much appreciated.

At this moment in time I'm having feelings like I could be due on my period (sorry for the detail but I feel very relieved )

Thankyou for the links I will have a good read of them tonight.

My worst fear is it perimenopausal or even menopausal and I can't have children.

Thankyou again.

 

[Faymus]

Hi purelaur,

Thankyou for your message too. It's good (it's not really if you know what I mean) that someone else has been through the same thing.

I've just had a quick read of hypoptuitism. It's unbelievable how complex the body is. If I can help you in some way is by saying my dad had a problem with his pituitary gland and they worked wonders with him to regulate his hormones again so try not to worry too much about it. There are things they can do for you if it is that.

Well over the last 5 years I have had a stressful time but for 4.5 years of that I've been on the pill so never experienced anything like this before.
The last 6/7 months, like I say, I haven't been on the pill and this has happened to me - missed periods etc so yes if this proves to be not menopausal I will be putting it down to stress. That will be my next mission to find a way of de-stressing and not allow things to worry me.

I have also been told I'm too thin. I am 5"3 and weight 7 stone 11. I have a bmi of - 19.2. I think I have put weight on the last 2 weeks which could be the reason behind me having signs of starting my menstrual cycle.

So maybe try to put some weight on and see if that helps. I'm just trying accumulation of things just to try to kick start these periods again.

I've learnt up to now that I need to:-
De-stress
Look after myself - vitamin supplements
Keep at a sensible weight
Eat healthier

It's terrible what being on the pill does to our body. It masks so much and you are oblivious to the effects different things have on our body by pumping fake hormones through our bodies.

Thankyou so much for your information. Look after yourself. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Thankyou again.

 

[purelaur]

I'm thinking I will focus now on adding yoga and meditation to my routine to destress, as I think my current exercise schedule may be too intense for my hormones. At 5'5, I am most comfortable around 120 pounds. As a vegan, I was 130 (due to hypothyroid) and it was clear that I was "over" my set point. I stopped menstruating then (I was also working out intensely). I then took about six months of no exercise, but stayed vegan. Since incorporating meat and milk back and cutting out cruciferous veggies, nuts and beans I've lost about 10 pounds over the course of six months, though I'm not sure my exact weight. I still run and work out, but I've cut back to only 3-4 days a week, shorter sessions. I've been reading through some old posts and I do show signs of estrogen dominance based on how my body stores fat (basically only the inner thighs). I eat well (I think), coming from an eating disordered past it's frustrating that what I feel as my best, most natural and pleasant eating routine is causing these bizarre symptoms is, again, stressing me out... perpetuating the cycle. Each month I feel as though I might get my period (slightly crampy, slight bloating, cravings, breakouts) but alas, nothing for the past 10 or so months. Lab results should come in this week so I guess if hypopituitarism is ruled out, I'll be back at square one. Hope all is well with you.

 

[Faymus]

Yes I was only discussing this evening about me starting yoga to de-stress so may give that a go. I've also been told I do far too much and not enough time to myself either so think going to make more time for that too.

Yes ive been reading lots about how too much exercise can mess with your hormones too. It sounds like you work out a lot even at 3/4 times a week that possibly too much still if your hormones are low so be careful with that. Why don't you just chill out by that I mean do less active activities and give your body time to recover and find its level that will make you feel well again? Everything is worth a try to give you piece of mind too.

Oh gosh that's true, I'm feeling like I could start my period but doesn't necessarily mean I will do. I'm just going to relax as much as possibly to coax it along. I just want to get back to my routine of periods again just for piece of mind that estrogen levels are up and less chance of menopause.

Fingers crossed you will get to the bottom of it soon. All I can suggest from reading above is that you take time out from exercise and totally chill out. Give your body time to relax and chill hopefully it will relax into normal cycles again.

I'm sure we will both be sorted soon enough.

Take care.

 

[tara]

Faymus
I agee with Jennnifer - don't panic, there is a good chance things can improve with your reproductive system.

I don't thing any kind of estrogen or estrogenic supplement will serve you - I would stop them if I were you. The pill does often mess women's hormones around, and it can take a while to come right. I think chaste tree might promote progesterone more than estrogen, which might be helpful, but i don't know so much about that.
Once you've read Peat's artcles on progesterone and estrogen, which I strongly recommend, you might want to consider a progesterone supplement. For some women, it helps normalise the cycle.
The specialists don't always get this right, so even if a specialist tells you you are in early menopause and you are unlikely to conceive, I wouldn't immediately assume they are right.

But firstly, make sure you are nourishing yourself well. There's lots to say about diet, but to keep it simple for starters, your body needs protein and carbs and minerals and vitamins to recover. Make sure you are getting at least 80-100 g protein/day - some people do better on more like 150g. If milk and cheese work for you, include lots of that. Fruits have lots of useful minerals, so go for them too. Are you getting a good 2500 cals/day?
One of Peat's most important insights is the damage caused by eating polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs - vege and fish oils). Amongst other things, they worsen the effects of excess estrogen. The lower you can get them, the better, but it takes quite a long time for the stores in the body to get replaced with safer saturated fats (eg coconut oil, butter, and the fats your body makes itself when it gets more carbs than it currently needs).

You made some good points above about not overdoing exercise when trying to recover from undereating and resultant low hormone levels. Yoga (not too extreme) and gentle walks can be good.

 

[moss]

Hello rtrollinger

Other's have already given you some good suggestions and not wanting to come across completely against exercise. Here are a few excerpts from a interview discussing Altitude with Dr Ray Peat that may be relevant for you? You can find the full interview and transcript in the Ray Peat Resources in the finished transcripts section.

"HD: OK, so another reason NOT to aerobically exercise like running and jogging and cycling and all those things that would increase your respiration, increase your oxygen, decrease your CO2, increase your adrenalin, all of those things are pointing out to be more negative than healthful.

RP: Yeah.

RP: Yeah, there have been studies that found that very well trained athletes typically go around with an elevated lactic acid in their blood, even days after their last exercise. They’ve suppressed their CO2 and become sort of habituated to increased lactic acid which has those long range harmful effects.

HD: And, lactic acid is the thing we feel when we exercise and our muscles cramp?

RP: Yeah, and it triggers release of a whole series of mediators of inflammation and also
of fibrosis.


Life-Flo Progesta contains some unwanted excipients and Progest- e would be a better option. I wonder if it may be a little difficult to know what's what with regard to the range of supplements you are currently on? As you introduce some of the new 'foods' perhaps consider no more than 4-5 at a time rather than an 'all or nothing' (not that I am suggesting you are doing that) and to take it slowly.
Yoghurt contains lactic acid and suppresses liver function, so anything that suppresses liver function inherently effects thyroid hormones.
Do you take in enough salt?

 

[lindsay]

'I'm curious what your pulse is like, considering you are a runner...... when I ran regularly, my resting pulse could drop as low as 45 bpm. Ray Peat suggests 80 - 90 beat per minute at rest is good."

I was around 60-65. I believe that a low pulse rate (not as low as yours or mine) is actually good. For me in my body, the probably ideal I would think is around 70. I haven't researched that as much as Peat, but I had thought that a lowish pulse was a sign of not too much strain on the body. Hmm...

Sorry - I must have missed this post! People tend to idolize the low heartbeat as being good, but then the argument is, well if a lower heartbeat keeps progressing towards zero, is a zero heartbeat good? Obviously not and there is an "ideal" range and RP seems to think 80 - 90 beats per minute at rest is ideal because this is usually the range of someone with a healthy metabolism.

Personally, I have to say that I came from a background of intense cardiovascular exercise - running, swimming, cycling. It was great for awhile, but then around age 29 and 30, my metabolism plummeted from all the exercise I was doing and I started getting bad muscle fatigue. Finally I found out I had a tumor. A few months later I discovered RP (after having surgery) and I made some lifestyle changes. I still kept swimming, but stopped jogging and only cycled occasionally. I also incorporated more yoga and walking into my routine. I can now see that chronic stress was part of my lifestyle and now it isn't. I still like to be active and I might try jogging again, now that I'm healthier, but no more pushing myself to the max on a daily basis. I only do what I feel comfortable with.

One of the reasons I changed my thinking about this (besides RP) was because I remember looking at all the female triathletes at the pool I went to - some of them were marathon runners too and they all looked quite aged, despite being in their 40's. I'd prefer to look much more youthful and vibrant than that at age 40, but that's just me.

 

[Faymus]

Hi Tara,

Thankyou very much for your reply it all makes sense. I will stop my supplements then and track down some chaste tree.

My main concerns are that:-

I was on the pill for 15 years came off it and had periods for 6/7 months then they stopped!!

Estrogen levels are low - then started with hot flashes (they stopped last couple of days) docs says levels low as a woman in her 40s/50s on menopause.

I have back ache like I usually have when I'm due on period but nothing.

I not had a period for 2 months now my next period is due on the 1st of feb. Fingers crossed I will have one.

Does that sound menopausal to you?

I'm so worried and I know that won't be doing me much good but I want to have children. It's ridiculous how worried I am.

Thankyou for your message.

 

[Jennifer]

Thankyou so much Jennifer.
I will have a read of that tonight Thankyou.

Yes my mum went to get me some chaste berry but they didn't sell it so she came back with all sorts of Estrogen supplements so been popping them for a few days now

I hope it's just my periods being wonky. Listening to you all it does sound like it to me too. So Thankyou very much for taking the time out to reply to me it's very very much appreciated.

At this moment in time I'm having feelings like I could be due on my period (sorry for the detail but I feel very relieved )

Thankyou for the links I will have a good read of them tonight.

My worst fear is it perimenopausal or even menopausal and I can't have children.

Thankyou again.

Sorry! I never saw this last night, Faymus. You're welcome! :)

I don't want to keep bombarding you with quotes, but I do want to help eleviate your worries so here's another quote I posted on my recovery log and it might explain what is happening with your absent periods:

When you say that your menstruation has been weak already (meaning hardly any bleeding, I suppose) this is usually a sign for a strong estrogen dominance and low thyroid function. The body shuts down fertility functions to safe energy.
The menstruation starts when your progesterone level drops. (If you want to know exactly, I recommend to read Ray Peat's 'From PMS to Menopause' and everything by Katharina Dalton, starting with 'Once A Month'.) If your estrogen is high, your body will produce as much progesterone as possible to antagonize it. When it drops and estrogen is suddenly unopposed - the menstruation bleeding is heavy. If there is hardly any progesterone to oppose the estrogen to begin with - the drop is not significant and produces hardly any effects. Estrogen will stimulate building up the mucous membranes of the uterus, progesterone will maintain it and keep the tissue oxidized.
It stays very low for the first half of the cycle until your ovulation. The corpus luteum then produces progesterone. It increases your thyroid function and by that your temperature raises. (Other hormones are important in the cycle like LH, FH and GnRH but I will concentrate on estrogen and progesterone. It's actually a bit more complicated.)
If your estrogen has been unopposed for years, it takes time for the stress hormones to decrease. It's not just estrogen - cortisol is usually high, PTH, serotonin (no hormone, a neurotransmitter), prolactin (which is decreased by estrogen), melatonin, histamine. Since I don't know about your diet or your supplements, I can't tell you what you might need or what you should better not do.

It's good that you stopped the estrogen supplements for now. I really have a feeling you're dealing with a lack of progesterone, not estrogen. Vitex has been recommended by Ray before and it is pro-progesterone. Ideally, progest-e (natural progesterone) is probably better in the long run, but I can't say for sure since I've never used Vitex. What I can say is that once I put some weight on (I'm tiny like you too) and started taking progest-e, my hot flashes and nighttime sweats went away.

Out of curiosity, what birth control were you on? Was it an estrogen or progestin based birth control? I just listen to one of Ray's Herb Doctors radio interviews on palpitations and he mentioned progestin contraception that is used mainly in Europe.

 

[Faymus]

Hi Jennifer,

I've just spoken to the doctor because I'm so worried and hoped she could help me to ease my mind too....

She has basically made it all worse by saying that.....
My estrogen is below 40.
My LH is 100
My FSH levels are 174.

She said that my estrogen goes down and my LH and FSH will go high if I'm menopausal.

That's exactly what has happened :-(((

She sending me for another lot of tests to see if they are still at the same level. She also testing my progestogen level and something else that I can't remember.

She said that if they are then unfortunately I am going through menopause.

I'm devastated I really can't believe it. It's all I've ever wanted is to have my own children and it's looking like I cant.

Thankyou so much.

 

[Jennifer]

Hi Jennifer,

I've just spoken to the doctor because I'm so worried and hoped she could help me to ease my mind too....

She has basically made it all worse by saying that.....
My estrogen is below 40.
My LH is 100
My FSH levels are 174.

She said that my estrogen goes down and my LH and FSH will go high if I'm menopausal.

That's exactly what has happened :-(((

She sending me for another lot of tests to see if they are still at the same level. She also testing my progestogen level and something else that I can't remember.

She said that if they are then unfortunately I am going through menopause.

I'm devastated I really can't believe it. It's all I've ever wanted is to have my own children and it's looking like I cant.

Thankyou so much.

Faymus, I really sympathize with you. I know exactly what it's like to hear some of the worst news of your life from doctors and have to somehow find it within yourself not to believe the worst.

I'm not as smart as everyone else here when it comes to knowing how our bodies work, but I do know the spirit. I'd say, if you're feeling overwhelmed with hormone levels, menopause labels ect. maybe try a little faith? Faith that your body won't let you down. In the future when you become pregnant, you're going to have to put a lot of trust and faith in your body to know how to birth a brand new soul. How about practicing now for when the time comes?

Every time I feel like I've let my body down or it has let me down, this song always seemed to pop up on my iPod shuffle setting. I'd pretend it was my body singing to me and it seemed to renew my faith in it. In us.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7aYxMuLb3h8

I wish you the best and you'll be a great mom when the time comes. So many children in the world have no one to love them or want them and your baby will have been loved and desperately wanted before it was ever conceived. What an amazing bond to come. :)

 

[Blossom]

I do hope your doctor checked the labs more than once? I think a thorough investigation should be made before diagnosing a woman as menopausal especially if she has a history of low weight or low calorie dieting. That happened to me three years ago and I mistakenly took estrogen for over a year before I realized I felt much better without it when I forgot to take the estrogen prescription with me on a camping trip. Soon after that I started really questioning the medical advice I had been following and luckily found Peat's website! I do think there are a lot of Peat inspired ideas you could try first before taking estrogen if you are interested in going that route. Sadly I lost my uterus 8 years ago but I can tell you for certain I'm not in menopause as I had been previously diagnosed. My menopausal symptoms resolved (like others here) with increased calories, improved nutrition, Progest-e, thyroid and rest. I posted this incase hearing my story might give you some hope.

 

[lindsay]

Hi Jennifer,

I've just spoken to the doctor because I'm so worried and hoped she could help me to ease my mind too....

She has basically made it all worse by saying that.....
My estrogen is below 40.
My LH is 100
My FSH levels are 174.

She said that my estrogen goes down and my LH and FSH will go high if I'm menopausal.

That's exactly what has happened :-(((

She sending me for another lot of tests to see if they are still at the same level. She also testing my progestogen level and something else that I can't remember.

She said that if they are then unfortunately I am going through menopause.

I'm devastated I really can't believe it. It's all I've ever wanted is to have my own children and it's looking like I cant.

Thankyou so much.

I Faymus. I've been meaning to respond to your comments on this thread.

If it makes you feel any better, I haven't taken birth control in over 15 years and am 32. Two years ago I had an ovarian tumor which resulted in a single Oophorectomy - my period stopped after the surgery and less than a year later I was told I was post-menopausal (I was 30 at the time and quite stunned).

My estrogen levels were less than 5 and my progesterone was almost zero. So, I started taking Cynoplus (after corresponding with Ray Peat) and using very high doses of progesterone so I could heal my other ovary, which was in bad shape. After two months of supplementing progest-e (about a bottle per week), I had boosted my progesterone levels to 18 and my estrogen levels to about 9. Still low, but it was progress. My FSH and LH were still way lower than yours, but had progressed slightly.

Then a few months later, I had my first period in over a year. I only had two and then they stopped because I wasn't diligent with taking my progesterone. Honestly, I don't know where I am now because I haven't had a blood test in over a year (I got real tired of spending so much money and time on doctors and blood work), but I just tell you this so you know you are not alone.

I've never wanted to have kids, but it was still heart wrenching to be told that I could never have them and to feel like I had lost my youth. I say this with some hesitation, but don't listen to your doctors if they tell you nothing will change. Just realize they won't help you make that change (unless you go to a fertility doctor who will basically pump your body FULL of progesterone) and you have to really be proactive. If you don't want to go to a fertility doctor, I would suggest progest-e. A fertility doctor will make you take progesterone injections all the time (I have a friend who went through it). So progesterone is the first step. Vitex can also help, but I've heard it takes about a month to notice changes.

You might want to also have your thyroid levels checked (if you did and I missed that, sorry!) Hypothyroidism can lead to ovarian failure - or at least cause enough imbalances that eventually lead to ovarian failure. I've had good success using both progesterone and thyroid. Even though I haven't menstruated more than twice in 2 years, I believe that I will bring back a cycle eventually. I hear stories all the time of women who are told they can't have kids and then they get pregnant ten years later. Don't panic - worrying about it and stressing will not be any more helpful.

 

[Faymus]

Hi Jennifer,

I have a very good friend who turns to faith at times like this. She has been helping me a lot too so I will take your advice and give it a try.

Thankyou so much for replying to me. It is very much appreciated. Thankyou.

 

[Faymus]

Hi Lyndsey,

Thankyou for your message.

I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all of that and glad that you are ok now.

I'm not sure what my actual level of estrogen is all she said was its below 40.

They never tested my progestogen levels but that's what she testing me for.

Is LH 100 and FSH 174 high? Are they very high?

She tested me for my thyroid and that seems to come back clear along with some other things. It's just my estrogen that was a problem.

Well done for starting your periods up again! You should keep up with it.

My doctor said it is looking like menopause but as she is not an endocrinologist she can't diagnose me. She still says it may not be but it is looking that way. I need to have 2/3 more blood tests showing similar results before the can diagnose me.

I'm waiting for my endocrinologist appointment but in the meantime she sending me for my second lot of blood. She is fast tracking me to the endocrinologist due to me being so upset and distraught.

She said she has seen people with those levels before, referred them to an endocrinologist and it's not turned out to be menopause. I hoping so much that I am one of those patients.

Would you be concerned about the results of my bloods? Is menopause ringing out to you?

Will they be able to help me have children or is this the end of the road now? What are my options now of having children? Are there any?

Thankyou for being here for me it means a lot.

 

[Faymus]

Hi blossom,

Yes Thankyou hopefully they will start to do more investigations into finding out if I really am menopausal.

You know when you say many of you have resolved menopause symptoms? You don't mean you stopped yourselves from going through menopause do you?

I would love to reverse or stop it from happening so I can have children if it's not already happened.

Thankyou for you message. It's given me hope. Thankyou.