Biofilm Annihilation

[tomisonbottom]

Retinil helped me with painful sores in my mouth. I never got cracks thoigh.

How much did you take? Topical or oral and for how long? Thanks!

 

[Kyle M]

I am about to start a regimen for SIBO. This is going to be my 4th or so big attempt at dealing with this, so I can't say I'm very hopeful. Here's a short background:

Started noticing gut bloating and gas after eating carbohydrates after adding them back into my diet following several years of low carb, paleo type dieting.

Tried the 1st line of Ray Peat antibiotic stuff, like raw carrot and bamboo shoots. No results from that.

Finally got a doctor to prescribe Rifaximin. I don't remember the dose or the exact length, but it was 7-10 days. No results, maybe dose was too low
OR
the drugs didn't get to the bacteria because of a biofilm.

After reading of the results some have had from intense raw garlic treatment, I tried that. Twice. No results. This was a particular heart breaker as it seems to make a lot of sense, garlic is supposed to be a biofilm buster and antibiotic. Also the treatment was hellish.

Finally took a hydrogen and methane breath test. Used the glucose one, because you need a prescription in the US to get the lactulose test. Results came back inconclusive/negative. CO2 control values were slightly below good, but still perhaps acceptable.

I am still convinced my problem is bacterial, since there isn't any other way to produce gas in the gut from food. I'm disappointed with the test results being unclear, but ultimately it doesn't matter what the test says.

I put together a treatment protocol based mostly on stuff from fixyourgut.com, and will be starting it tonight as the supplements are likely waiting for me at home from Amazon. I'm going to rotate, for a month or so, between 2 biofilm disrupters, Interphase Plus and Jarrow Formulas NAC. I'm going to focus on Interphase Plus because fixyourgut.com recommends them most highly. For an antibiotic, I will rotate between another 3 recommendations from that site: peppermint oil (which has some soybean oil in it, oh well), oregano oil, and Allicin-C.

My plan is to dose twice a day, once in the morning on an empty stomach and once at night also on an empty stomach. I plan on taking the biofilm disrupter first, and then 5-10 or so minutes later taking the antibiotic. After a couple of weeks I'll switch the antibiotic, and then switch again. I'll try switching the biofilm disrupter as well, maybe 3 weeks in. With the amount of pills and capsules I got from my order, I should have enough to do this for about 6 weeks. If I don't get results from this, I have one more thing to try, that being S. boulardii. Hopefully something happens, I hate the symptoms, I hate trying to get doctors to help me with it, and I hate the idea of a doctor doing an upper GI scope aspiration to satisfy their diagnosis.

Wish me luck, I will at the very least post whether I get results or not, if not some interval updates.

 

[whodathunkit]

@tomisonbottom, I was using folate as a way to tackle my moderate/severe CFS symptoms. I don't think what I did is something that most people need to do. I went up to as much as 40mg/day. For about six months that was the dose it took to keep me out of bad side effects with anxiety and fatigue, and also out of minor sides like the angular cheilitis. I titrated up to that high dose, and stayed there for about six months, then was able to taper down without experiencing bad sides, while at the same time retaining the healing benefits of high dose. It was quite complex and I used a lot of other co-factors like B12, B2, B6, etc. Guy named Freddd over at Phoenix Rising got me onto it and I was one of the ones that high experimental high dose folate protocol worked for. Doesn't for everyone. And if you're not really metabolically sick, you don't need that high dose.

How much folate you take depends upon your reaction to it, if that makes sense.

Do you have angular cheilitis?

 

[whodathunkit]

@Kyle M: Take a look at using turpentine. Not from Home Depot but pure gum spirits of turpentine, which AFAIK you can only get online.

From what you just wrote it seems like you're on the same track I was for a long time. Bar none, turpentine is the best biofilm buster I've ever encountered...and I've tried everything including Interphase. Those enzymes just messed up my gut. After my little turpentine protocol last year my gut is much, much better. I think the turp allowed the antibiotics and anti-fungal measures I used to be much more effective.

I do with you luck! :)

 

[Regina]

I am about to start a regimen for SIBO. This is going to be my 4th or so big attempt at dealing with this, so I can't say I'm very hopeful. Here's a short background:

Started noticing gut bloating and gas after eating carbohydrates after adding them back into my diet following several years of low carb, paleo type dieting.

Tried the 1st line of Ray Peat antibiotic stuff, like raw carrot and bamboo shoots. No results from that.

Finally got a doctor to prescribe Rifaximin. I don't remember the dose or the exact length, but it was 7-10 days. No results, maybe dose was too low
OR
the drugs didn't get to the bacteria because of a biofilm.

After reading of the results some have had from intense raw garlic treatment, I tried that. Twice. No results. This was a particular heart breaker as it seems to make a lot of sense, garlic is supposed to be a biofilm buster and antibiotic. Also the treatment was hellish.

Finally took a hydrogen and methane breath test. Used the glucose one, because you need a prescription in the US to get the lactulose test. Results came back inconclusive/negative. CO2 control values were slightly below good, but still perhaps acceptable.

I am still convinced my problem is bacterial, since there isn't any other way to produce gas in the gut from food. I'm disappointed with the test results being unclear, but ultimately it doesn't matter what the test says.

I put together a treatment protocol based mostly on stuff from fixyourgut.com, and will be starting it tonight as the supplements are likely waiting for me at home from Amazon. I'm going to rotate, for a month or so, between 2 biofilm disrupters, Interphase Plus and Jarrow Formulas NAC. I'm going to focus on Interphase Plus because fixyourgut.com recommends them most highly. For an antibiotic, I will rotate between another 3 recommendations from that site: peppermint oil (which has some soybean oil in it, oh well), oregano oil, and Allicin-C.

My plan is to dose twice a day, once in the morning on an empty stomach and once at night also on an empty stomach. I plan on taking the biofilm disrupter first, and then 5-10 or so minutes later taking the antibiotic. After a couple of weeks I'll switch the antibiotic, and then switch again. I'll try switching the biofilm disrupter as well, maybe 3 weeks in. With the amount of pills and capsules I got from my order, I should have enough to do this for about 6 weeks. If I don't get results from this, I have one more thing to try, that being S. boulardii. Hopefully something happens, I hate the symptoms, I hate trying to get doctors to help me with it, and I hate the idea of a doctor doing an upper GI scope aspiration to satisfy their diagnosis.

Wish me luck, I will at the very least post whether I get results or not, if not some interval updates.

Good luck! Hope it works.

 

[Koveras]

I am about to start a regimen for SIBO. This is going to be my 4th or so big attempt at dealing with this, so I can't say I'm very hopeful. Here's a short background:

Started noticing gut bloating and gas after eating carbohydrates after adding them back into my diet following several years of low carb, paleo type dieting.

Tried the 1st line of Ray Peat antibiotic stuff, like raw carrot and bamboo shoots. No results from that.

Finally got a doctor to prescribe Rifaximin. I don't remember the dose or the exact length, but it was 7-10 days. No results, maybe dose was too low
OR
the drugs didn't get to the bacteria because of a biofilm.

After reading of the results some have had from intense raw garlic treatment, I tried that. Twice. No results. This was a particular heart breaker as it seems to make a lot of sense, garlic is supposed to be a biofilm buster and antibiotic. Also the treatment was hellish.

Finally took a hydrogen and methane breath test. Used the glucose one, because you need a prescription in the US to get the lactulose test. Results came back inconclusive/negative. CO2 control values were slightly below good, but still perhaps acceptable.

I am still convinced my problem is bacterial, since there isn't any other way to produce gas in the gut from food. I'm disappointed with the test results being unclear, but ultimately it doesn't matter what the test says.

I put together a treatment protocol based mostly on stuff from fixyourgut.com, and will be starting it tonight as the supplements are likely waiting for me at home from Amazon. I'm going to rotate, for a month or so, between 2 biofilm disrupters, Interphase Plus and Jarrow Formulas NAC. I'm going to focus on Interphase Plus because fixyourgut.com recommends them most highly. For an antibiotic, I will rotate between another 3 recommendations from that site: peppermint oil (which has some soybean oil in it, oh well), oregano oil, and Allicin-C.

My plan is to dose twice a day, once in the morning on an empty stomach and once at night also on an empty stomach. I plan on taking the biofilm disrupter first, and then 5-10 or so minutes later taking the antibiotic. After a couple of weeks I'll switch the antibiotic, and then switch again. I'll try switching the biofilm disrupter as well, maybe 3 weeks in. With the amount of pills and capsules I got from my order, I should have enough to do this for about 6 weeks. If I don't get results from this, I have one more thing to try, that being S. boulardii. Hopefully something happens, I hate the symptoms, I hate trying to get doctors to help me with it, and I hate the idea of a doctor doing an upper GI scope aspiration to satisfy their diagnosis.

Wish me luck, I will at the very least post whether I get results or not, if not some interval updates.

Have you heard of Atrantil?

https://chriskresser.com/new-treatment-for-sibo-and-ibs-c-with-dr-kenneth-brown/

There are a couple studies on it though both are authored by the maker of the supplement (Kenneth Brown)

-Efficacy of a Quebracho, Conker Tree, and M. balsamea Willd Blended Extract in a Randomized Study in Patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome with Constipation

-Response of irritable bowel syndrome with constipation patients administered a combined quebracho/conker tree/M. balsamea Willd extract

Also the combination of rifaximim and neomycin seems to be getting more common now with better results then either alone

-Metabolic effects of eradicating breath methane using antibiotics in prediabetic subjects with obesity. (Mathur, 2016)

-A combination of rifaximin and neomycin is most effective in treating irritable bowel syndrome patients with methane on lactulose breath test. (Low, 2010)

-Antibiotic treatment of constipation-predominant irritable bowel syndrome. (Pimental, 2014)

*Updated with links

 

[lollipop]

Have you heard of Atrantil?

https://chriskresser.com/new-treatment-for-sibo-and-ibs-c-with-dr-kenneth-brown/

There are a couple studies on it though both are authored by the maker of the supplement (Kenneth Brown)

-Efficacy of a Quebracho, Conker Tree, and M. balsamea Willd Blended Extract in a Randomized Study in Patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome with Constipation

-Response of irritable bowel syndrome with constipation patients administered a combined quebracho/conker tree/M. balsamea Willd extract

Also the combination of rifaximim and neomycin seems to be getting more common now with better results then either alone

-Metabolic effects of eradicating breath methane using antibiotics in prediabetic subjects with obesity. (Mathur, 2016)

-A combination of rifaximin and neomycin is most effective in treating irritable bowel syndrome patients with methane on lactulose breath test. (Low, 2010)

-Antibiotic treatment of constipation-predominant irritable bowel syndrome. (Pimental, 2010)

Interesting @Koveras. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's kind of hard to contribute with something after a post by Koveras.

But here's something interesting anyway:
Metabolic regulation of antibiotic resistance

"[..]it has been shown that resting cells are fully resistant to ampicillin or to tetracycline, whereas streptomycin or ciprofloxacin is still active against cells in the stationary phase, although their activity is lower than that observed for exponentially growing bacteria (Levin & Rozen, 2006). This situation has been named ‘drug indifference’ (Mc Dermott, 1958), and can be relevant for the persistence of bacterial infections even in patients under antibiotic treatment, when bacteria are in a host location that restricts growth or when the microorganisms have consumed the host resources and their growth is impaired. This can be particularly important in the case of long-lasting infections, because it was demonstrated that the concentration of antibiotics required to cure an experimental infection increases with the duration of the infection (Eagle, 1949)."

"[..]at least on some occasions, the susceptibility or lack the susceptibility of bacterial populations to a given antibiotic depends not just on whether bacteria are actively growing or resting, but on their specific metabolic situation at the time of treatment (in the example, aerobic or anaerobic)."

"[..]it has been shown that biofilms contain different bacterial populations, including dead cells, dormant cells and actively growing cells. In the last case, two populations have been found growing either aerobically or fermentatively, which corresponds to two distinct metabolic states (Rani et al., 2007)." "These results indicate that the phenotypic resistance of bacterial biofilms is not the consequence of a general metabolic shut-off. On the contrary, the activity of a particular antibiotic depends highly on the metabolic state of each population."

"[..]changes in bacterial metabolism can modify bacterial susceptibility to antibiotics and some global regulators modulate the expression of resistance determinants, it might be speculated that global regulators of bacterial metabolism might modulate the susceptibility to antibiotics of bacterial pathogens."

"Because this topic has been reviewed in depth, we will just briefly discuss some examples of the regulation of antibiotic resistance by two-component systems. One of the best examples is that provided by PhoP–PhoQ. This system mediates the response of different pathogens to magnesium concentrations (Groisman, 1998) and affects the susceptibility to polymyxin B, aminoglycosides and antimicrobial peptides (Macfarlane et al., 2000), mainly by altering the composition of the lipid A of the bacterial lipopolysaccharide. These changes alter not just bacterial susceptibility to cationic antibiotics, but virulence as well (Gooderham et al., 2009), demonstrating that these are interlinked phenotypes dependent on inputs received by bacteria from the environment (Groisman, 2001)."

"Membrane permeability is the first step in the crosstalk between bacteria and their surrounding environment in order to optimize the cellular metabolism as a function of the environmental conditions. Because of this, the expression of porins and modifications in the lipid composition of bacterial membranes are tightly regulated in response to extracellular inputs. Since antibiotics co-opt bacterial transporters for their entry into bacterial cells, changes in the transporters' composition due to the adjustment of bacterial metabolism to an environmental shift might challenge the susceptibility to antibiotics. Conversely, mutations affecting the expression or the activity of porins, selected under antibiotic selective pressure, might modify bacterial metabolism."

"Given that antibiotic susceptibility can change as a consequence of alterations in the bacterial metabolism, it is conceivable that bacterial colonization of novel habitats might select antibiotic resistance even in the absence of antibiotic selective pressure. This might be particularly important in the case of chronic infections, because it has been demonstrated that bacteria evolve during the course of such infections to better adapt their physiology to the resources present in the environment of the infected host (Silo-Suh et al., 2005; Smith et al., 2006; Martinez-Solano et al., 2008; Mena et al., 2008; Rau et al., 2010)."

"This situation shows that the metabolic shift that bacteria undergo during the course of their adaptation for colonizing novel environments might be selected for antibiotic-resistant bacteria, even in the absence of selective pressure with antibiotics, highlighting the existence of a tight link between the metabolism of bacterial pathogens and their susceptibility to antibiotics."

"If susceptibility to antibiotics depends on the bacterial metabolism, it might be possible that the specific growth conditions afforded during infection can alter antibiotic susceptibility." "However, inheritable resistance can also be achieved as a consequence of the selection of mutants presenting a metabolism better adapted to the conditions encountered during infection."

It's probably better to address chronic infections keeping the environment as dynamic as possible while using a combination antimicrobial compounds, mostly because microbes can adapt fast and it's easier for them when the environment is stable, such as constipation with lack of fiber diversity. If you're not ingesting a diet that is almost completely devoid of fiber, then it might be good to include that diversity on every meal, just like we learned from Fully Raw Kristina.

Something else to consider:
Wake Up and Die: Activating Dormant Bacteria to Kill Them
Search Results
The main action of antibiotics is probably more effective during restriction of nutrients that favor microbial growth, however, as commented in various similar reviews, it's not usually effective enough. At this point there should be a significant reduction in their numbers, and the remainders are probably protected in some way and you have to discourage their defenses or encourage a shift in their metabolism by providing some of the restricted nutrients but not in excess, just enough to signal growth and change in metabolism followed by a second course of the antibiotic drug, possibly in combination with another during this period that they are susceptible.

That's just to say that it's not just about biofilms because many of them can persist even without being enclosed. If biofilms is really the main responsible for resistance, it has to be tackled along with a combination of antimicrobials possibly for a longer period, such as rotating low dose antimicrobials while keeping everything else in good condition.

--
Bacteria, Membranes And Environmental Challenges

 

[Kyle M]

@Kyle M: Take a look at using turpentine. Not from Home Depot but pure gum spirits of turpentine, which AFAIK you can only get online.

From what you just wrote it seems like you're on the same track I was for a long time. Bar none, turpentine is the best biofilm buster I've ever encountered...and I've tried everything including Interphase. Those enzymes just messed up my gut. After my little turpentine protocol last year my gut is much, much better. I think the turp allowed the antibiotics and anti-fungal measures I used to be much more effective.

I do with you luck! :)

I have tried turpentine, although I don't remember how long I tried it for. It was around the time of my first garlic treatment, and I was putting a teaspoon of it on a tablespoon of sugar at night. What was your protocol?

 

[Kyle M]

Thanks everyone for the responses, and for those of you that made suggestions (like Atrantil) I will look into that, but perhaps not right now.

I have derived a social law vis a vis this topic (SIBO, gut problems). The law is that whenever you post that you are going to try to do something, you will get at least one response that is a suggestion to try something else. I have amassed dozens of suggested treatments in this way, everything from prescription antibiotics and herbs to garlic, turpentine, etc.

 

[Kyle M]

It's probably better to address chronic infections keeping the environment as dynamic as possible while using a combination antimicrobial compounds, mostly because microbes can adapt fast and it's easier for them when the environment is stable, such as constipation with lack of fiber diversity. If you're not ingesting a diet that is almost completely devoid of fiber, then it might be good to include that diversity on every meal, just like we learned from Fully Raw Kristina.

The main action of antibiotics is probably more effective during restriction of nutrients that favor microbial growth, however, as commented in various similar reviews, it's not usually effective enough. At this point there should be a significant reduction in their numbers, and the remainders are probably protected in some way and you have to discourage their defenses or encourage a shift in their metabolism by providing some of the restricted nutrients but not in excess, just enough to signal growth and change in metabolism followed by a second course of the antibiotic drug, possibly in combination with another during this period that they are susceptible.

That's just to say that it's not just about biofilms because many of them can persist even without being enclosed. If biofilms is really the main responsible for resistance, it has to be tackled along with a combination of antimicrobials possibly for a longer period, such as rotating low dose antimicrobials while keeping everything else in good condition.

This is a lot of resources to read, but the overall message is one that I am familiar with. In fact the garlic protocol I tried supposedly "activated" bacteria with some nutrients in the garlic, allowing the antibiotics compounds to be more effective. I think this is also part of the idea with turpentine mixed with sugar.

Practically speaking, would you recommend a tactic to make use of this mechanism to enhance the effectiveness of my proposed SIBO regimen? Instead of taking my supplements on an empty stomach, for example, maybe I should take the biofilm disrupter with some sugar? My main concern is that I don't want to dilute it, but activating the bacteria might be more important. Or maybe the biofilm disrupter should be taken on an empty stomach, followed 5-10 minutes later with some nutrients and the antibiotic? Thinking of it mechanically, there's a sense to it, you break down the barrier and then follow that with a mobilization of the things behind the barrier and a delivery of poison to them. But that's a cartoonish representation of what is likely actually happening, perhaps accurate perhaps not. Thoughts?

 

[lollipop]

I have derived a social law vis a vis this topic (SIBO, gut problems). The law is that whenever you post that you are going to try to do something, you will get at least one response that is a suggestion to try something else. I have amassed dozens of suggested treatments in this way, everything from prescription antibiotics and herbs to garlic, turpentine, etc.

Nice. The result of open dialogue, batting around ideas and not committing the strange and illogical choice of narrowing the conversation down to one desired result.

 

[Kyle M]

Nice. The result of open dialogue, batting around ideas and not committing the strange and illogical choice of narrowing the conversation down to one desired result.

I certainly appreciate people's well-intentioned suggestions, but I would say it's a double-edged phenomenon. Too many suggestions or options makes it hard to commit to trying any one. It can also make someone feel dismissed when they say "I'm going to try X" and the majority of the responses are "try Y."

 

[Amazoniac]

This is a lot of resources to read, but the overall message is one that I am familiar with. In fact the garlic protocol I tried supposedly "activated" bacteria with some nutrients in the garlic, allowing the antibiotics compounds to be more effective. I think this is also part of the idea with turpentine mixed with sugar.

Practically speaking, would you recommend a tactic to make use of this mechanism to enhance the effectiveness of my proposed SIBO regimen? Instead of taking my supplements on an empty stomach, for example, maybe I should take the biofilm disrupter with some sugar? My main concern is that I don't want to dilute it, but activating the bacteria might be more important. Or maybe the biofilm disrupter should be taken on an empty stomach, followed 5-10 minutes later with some nutrients and the antibiotic? Thinking of it mechanically, there's a sense to it, you break down the barrier and then follow that with a mobilization of the things behind the barrier and a delivery of poison to them. But that's a cartoonish representation of what is likely actually happening, perhaps accurate perhaps not. Thoughts?

Like I mentioned, in my opinion the main purpose should be to keep the intestines as dynamic as possible. Some people start removing problematic fibers, which is fine, but they end up narrowing the variety and providing only a single source, making things stable and problematic again.
To be honest, and I know that it's easier said than done, I have the impression that bacterial overgrowth can be fixed if you find a way to get adequate nutrition with minimum bacterial interference. I would avoid supplemental minerals, except for magnesium topically if you think that you need, or a bit of selenium/iodine. Potassium is very often missing. B-vits are often disturbed in bacterial overgrowth, same thing, topical is an option.

Regarding garlic protocol, it was expected that it wasn't going to work, not because your case is tough, but for the reasons mentioned before on the other thread. So don't feel discouraged.

Other than that, I think that having a strict protocol won't help you much because you'll probably need to adjust as it goes. Eating foods that you crave and those that make your intestines move the fastest often help. Those problems usually start to disappear slowly.

And I still insist that you can try lengthy incandescent light sessions on the abdomen.

 

[Kyle M]

Other than that, I think that having a strict protocol won't help you much because you'll probably need to adjust as it goes. Eating foods that you crave and those that make your intestines move the fastest often help. Those problems usually start to disappear slowly.

I've had this problem for a long time now, and my diet has been dynamic. I don't eat the same amount or type of fiber, or any other food component for that matter, every day.

 

[Amazoniac]

I've had this problem for a long time now, and my diet has been dynamic. I don't eat the same amount or type of fiber, or any other food component for that matter, every day.

How do you know that it's within the small intestine?

 

[tomisonbottom]

@tomisonbottom, I was using folate as a way to tackle my moderate/severe CFS symptoms. I don't think what I did is something that most people need to do. I went up to as much as 40mg/day. For about six months that was the dose it took to keep me out of bad side effects with anxiety and fatigue, and also out of minor sides like the angular cheilitis. I titrated up to that high dose, and stayed there for about six months, then was able to taper down without experiencing bad sides, while at the same time retaining the healing benefits of high dose. It was quite complex and I used a lot of other co-factors like B12, B2, B6, etc. Guy named Freddd over at Phoenix Rising got me onto it and I was one of the ones that high experimental high dose folate protocol worked for. Doesn't for everyone. And if you're not really metabolically sick, you don't need that high dose.

How much folate you take depends upon your reaction to it, if that makes sense.

Do you have angular cheilitis?

Well, I did for the last few days, but now it seems to be 90% better! Almost gone. I ate some liver the last 2 days, because it's the one thing I never eat, so probably something in it I was missing. Maybe the A, or B vitamins.

 

[Kyle M]

How do you know that it's within the small intestine?

By the rapidity of the gas production. I feel bloated within 30 minutes of most meals.

Some times, when I take something like coffee with milk and sugar, I will have a burping spell within 10 minutes. This would have to be small intestine, maybe even lower stomach, right above the pyloric sphincter, or right below.

That is another observation that is fairly consistent, when I take simple sugars in liquids I tend to get upper GI gas that can be burped out. It's rapid forming and doesn't last long, and it doesn't distend my abdomen much. When I take complex sugars, or any mixed meal, I get more abdominal distention and less gas that can escape as burps. It seems to me that tracking the symptoms this way is a decent estimation of where in the gut the gas is being produced. At some point, burping will be a likely route for gas, then it will be trapped in the intestine, and further on if there is a lot of colonic fermentation, the tendency would be to fart it out. That makes sense, right?

 

[Waynish]

Makes sense! Don't give up and keep us informed! :) Thanks!

 

[whodathunkit]

What was your protocol?

Teaspoon of turp 3x/week, abx for one week (just some amoxicillin I had on hand), methylene blue, pau d'arco, and oil of oregano for fungus/candida, and parasites. I did everything except the abx for a bit over a month. Also added in some cloves, black walnut hull, and wormwood tincture for good measure, although I never had any success with the last three by themselves.

I actually did a teaspoon of turp *daily* for the first couple weeks, but wouldn't necessarily recommend that to anyone. I self-monitored my reactions very carefully and reduced dosage frequency as soon as I felt like daily might be getting to be too much. Also, when your poop starts to smell like pine trees that might be a clue that you're doing too much. Standard dose is a teaspoon 2-3x/week.

Seriously, I found this protocol to be the most effective combo of stuff I've ever tried. And I've tried lots of stuff, including enzymes, as noted above. Not just Interphase but serrapeptase and nattokinase and some other -ases. I've used nystatin and caprylic acid and garlic and goldenseal and wormwood and black walnut hull and cloves and other stuff I can't think of right now. I've had mild IBSD for years and the turp protocol mostly resolved it. I feel like another round of this with some milder, more Peaty abx and less lifestyle backsliding will take care of my issues altogether. Guess we'll see about that.

Main point is I believe the turpentine is what allowed the other stuff to be more effective. Probably because it dissolves biofilms. But it also kills some bacteria and parasites on its own. Powerful stuff.